Powered speakers for monitors [Archive]

TonyP

Jun-26-2009, 10:54am

thing is with monitors, you don't want any of the bottom end in the monitors. That's already radiating from the mains. Low freq is omnidirectional, hi's are not. So if you were to look at what feeds back, it's trying to put the same freq. through the monitors as what's going out through the mains. In my experience, because you are getting those added db's from the mains, you end up with too much bottom on stage through the mains, and end up with tons of mud and feedback. I use Mackie SRM150's on the side of mains, pointed back at the band, with everything below 1.5k eq'd out. All I'm really trying to add in is just enough real time hi end that's going get all messed up bouncing back from the mains, outta time and outta phase, with some in time and in phase info. Works great, but I also use a feedback buster.

steve V. johnson

Jun-29-2009, 4:05pm

I"m with Tony on the low end matter. When I do PA for big shows I use some passive 10s for monitors, wedge cabinets with a 10" and a horn. I very, very rarely put bass or drums thru the monitors. If at all, a bit of snare drum, but the rest generally isn't necessary. But -my- bands don't have electronic keyboards, electric guitars, nor a drum kit.

So I've become a fan of using powered studio monitors on stage. They just got to be such a good value and at such good prices that I wanted to try them, and they've worked out very well. For my two bands (acoustic trios to quintets) I use Alesis 520 powered studio monitors for stage monitors, and in small venues for mains. They're heavy and require both audio and power cables, but we love 'em and plan to get another pair so that we can use all four in various positions. They're available for $200/pair shipped from many dealers. Pick one dealer/shop you like or one that has a good return policy in case you don't like 'em.

I have Mackie 450s, the big'n's, and they are great, but they are big and heavy. The smaller ones, the 350s are also heavy (tho less so). I love 'em but I wouldn't want to carry 'em for stage monitors.

What's your price range? I've heard the Behringer powered studio monitors, which have (I think) an 8" woofer, and they're not bad if you don't push them too hard. I think the last time I looked, a pair of these was around $300. I thought I'd put a pair in the back of my Jeep for the cd player, but I never did.

There are quite a few active studio monitors that will do the job and the prices go up from $200.
You can search by cost or by woofer size. Some have really complicated controls to tailor them to the room they're being used in, but I dislike all that, so I looked for ones with fewer controls and lower cost. The Alesis 520s still have a lot of controls, but I leave 'em as flat as possible and they do fine.

The one drawback is that they aren't made to angle up like stage wedges are, so I made some cradles for them from styrofoam, so that they can rest on their sides and aim up at the players.
They rest well on chairs or tall stools as monitors or w/o the wedges on speaker stands for use as mains. They cover rooms up to 100 people really well and sound great. Again, the Alesis aren't the only options, they've just worked well for me.

I haven't looked at powered PA cabinets in a good while, but when I last looked they were a good deal more $ than powered studio monitors. Again, the powered PA units had 12" and 15" woofers and the studio monitors had 8" and 6" woofers, but still would push 60Hz to louder than anyone should have 'em.

stv

foldedpath

Jun-29-2009, 6:17pm

BTW, for anyone using either powered mains or monitors, you can speed setup and teardown if you use combined AC power and XLR mic cables, wrapped together in a loom with the connectors tailing out at each end. Then it's just one cable to run out to the speakers, instead of having to run AC separately.

The first time I heard about this I was skeptical (old habits about not running AC parallel to audio cables), but it works fine as long as the line level signal to the powered speaker is balanced for noise rejection, which it normally would be.

You can either roll your own with a heat-shrink loom, or buy pre-assembled cables like the "Siamese Twin" series from Pro Co. Here's one good source for the Pro Co cables -- the EC-9 version is what you'd use for a typical mixer-to-powered speaker rig:

http://www.directproaudio.com/shop/cables/siamese-twins.cfm

TonyP

Jun-29-2009, 7:40pm

I guess I should have said in my original post, I got this idea from Steve, because I did :)

Sad thing is, I bought those little 150's and the band had a long hiatus while I was figuring out the mounts and trying to grapple with exactly how I was going to accomplish what I envisioned. Being armed with the theory and the equipment is not exactly a "done deal". Especially when it kind of runs counter to common practice. Practical application always has a way of swatting me between the eyes, right in the heat of battle. And that last little bit of application, once the kinks were worked out, proved to be what I was looking for.

But now I have insurrection my hands when we have to go back to the IEM's because of venue issues. whatchagonnado?

I've been trying to recreate the few times we've had good monitors, and good sound, for a couple of years now. And until I saw the system a local, to CA, guy puts up for our local bluegrass festival I was skeptical regular monitors would ever work right for me. The best I could do was the cheapo IEM's we came up with. But then getting some enlightenment on what's really behind hearing good on stage, ala Steve's strategy of eq., it was just getting the right equipment and then makin' it work for us. I only went with the 150's because the mounts, and the mixer section in each one. I think that will prove handy in the right situation. I do wish they made something more roadworthy along the lines of the studio monitors that Steve is using. It's all you really need.

I gotta say too, I was disappointed at first with the sound of the 150's. I don't like the sound up close, how they were designed to work. On a mic stand, right in front of you. I don't know, boxy and nasal would how I'd describe 'em up close. But 4-5' away, they are great. You also can't run bass through 'em. I think it's only like a 5" speaker, but, it will put out some sound from 1k on up! Just the range I want to hear clearly.

foldedpath

Jun-30-2009, 1:58am

TonyP, well at least you're not alone. Check out the 5th post down in this PSW forum thread on "side fill monitoring":

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/438652/0/?srch=X-Stage+Fills+(Sidefills)#msg_438652

But now I have insurrection my hands when we have to go back to the IEM's because of venue issues. whatchagonnado?

Are you using a 31-band graphic EQ or auto feedback killer to control feedback on the monitor output? That might help if it's a feedback problem in those venues.

Tim2723

Jun-30-2009, 3:52am

You know Tony, I didn't want to say anything, but I wondered why you suddenly were playing around with near-field monitors. You're pretty much the Lord High Chancellor of IEMs around here.

TonyP

Jun-30-2009, 9:34am

Thanks for posting that FP link. Like I mentioned, I experienced what I would call front side fills first hand at our local BG fest. And what totally impressed me was one sound guy, when the bands would come up, re arrange mics, go back to the board, some minor tweeks, and less than 3-4 minutes, the show goes on. And you had the range of 8mics, or bass wrap and one LDC and everything in between with the different bands. But same monitors, little or no feedback and the sound out front and on stage was perfect. That's my holy grail.

And yes, I use a dbx DriveRack 260 with feedback buster, 31bnd graphic, parametric eq etc on mains, and monitors, if need be.

But I also have to acknowledge, it's outside, concert setting, and can get the mains a little out in front of us. As much as I'd like to do that in a noisy club, it ain't going to happen. That's when the IEM's come back out and we get more isolation from the room with it's tv's, espresso machine's, people hittin' on each other, and general noise.

One size does not fit all, so different setups for different venue's. So since I felt like I had kinda mastered(mostly) the cheapo IEM's, it was time to tackle the harder one, side fill monitors. For us, and when we are doing a show with other bands and need to share the PA.

It's also great to see/hear the problem I've always experienced with floor wedges described perfectly. That phaser sound drives me to distraction. I can't hear anything else. It's probably my OCD kickin' in. But I am almost totally auditory, and being out of tune, outta time because of different people listening to the slap back, or, whatever, and then that phaser sound.......you might as well have me in a trash can with someone beating on it, or better yet, rolling down a hill! Doh! Some of the other guys it doesn't seem to bother. But even by their own admission, they don't hear they are out of tune, band groove is not a big deal to them etc. But because they have experienced my idea of the sound being right, they hate almost as much as I, when we have to leave the sound up to someone else. 99.9% of the time, it's a mess, or worse. And I certainly have the lack of talent that I can't make up for the distraction of bad sound.

It's always been my idea that I want to hear just like when we stand in a circle and practice. But I'll bet I'm the only one in the band who's so auditory and don't need visual clues.

And I'm sorry Tim if I trot this cheapo IEM thing out too much. For the most part I get so much from those much more learned about the art of PA here on the Cafe, and I'm trying to contribute my own paltry experience. Being a one trick pony has it's drawbacks :)

Mostly I want to pass on that it's possible to do IEM's cheap enough to try and not get so hammered by the expense of wireless, as it's not for everybody. But it's a worthwhile tool in the kit and can cure a lot of problems, in the right circumstances.

Tim2723

Jun-30-2009, 10:07am

Tony, I meant that to be a compliment!!!

TonyP

Jun-30-2009, 2:37pm

Sorry Tim, I have a hard time tellin' a complement and sarcasm apart. I just assume I've harped on something too much, and having some kind of hi fahluten' title being linked to my name is usually a dead giveaway :)

Thanks, does that title come with land?

Jonathan Reinhardt

Jun-30-2009, 6:08pm

Monitors can be a problem for all but the best. And some of those best are the unsung soundpersons at bluegrass festivals. I have heard, and seen, incredible, unexplainable feats of wizardry.
Somehow, my results are extremely varied, and unwizardlike.
One band we use LDCs, therefore no monitors. Alright for me, as I listen for, and hear, every instrument/voice in the band, as well as trying to get it to sound right out front. I understand, but get frustrated with others who can't do this as well.
Another band is all dynamic mics and monitors. Fine when not a crowded, noisy venue. But often it is a noisy room and there is no easy solution. Monitors work IF you're right on top of them. They don't project back another 6 feet to the rythym section. Or pehaps they just can't hear the mix anyway. So all of a sudden everyone needs their own monitor. Don't know, but am against the impulse to buy another two monitors and amp, or two powered ones for the 4 gigs a year this band does that gross me $100 per nite.
In little local band, who earn little, it behooves members to take the initiative to improve their skills in listening, performing, and coping with less than optimum. I am not superhuman, and I can, so I feel I can reasonably expect it possible for others to do something similar.
Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world, and I have the odd feeling I will be getting powered monitors in the future. Mostly because if I get more monitors, it would be nice to just add them on to my system (two amps) without another amp.
Jonathan

TonyP

Jul-01-2009, 8:59am

I have heard, and seen, incredible, unexplainable feats of wizardry.
Jonathan

LOL, ain't that the truth Jonathan! I've watched first hand an old friend of mine work with a band to get the monitors right. During the sound check it was total confusion from the musicians, they couldn't hear this or that and the vocals were all off. And even though he was armed with years of pro experience, a laptop with the latest and most sophisticated audio analysis software etc, he ended up kicking them off the stage, and it came down to him standing in front of the monitors. Humming, speaking, popping and sometimes yelling into each mic, and telling me which slider on the 31bnd eq for each separate monitor, to turn up or down.

The amazing thing was, it wasn't hunt and peck. Down 3db on 1.5k, up 1db on another. Never said, ooops, the other way.

The band comes back, and it's night and day. They sound wonderful, and are totally happy. But, he's set up, and pinking the room at about 2pm, and the show's not until 8:30pm and this semi crisis is happening at like 6pm.

How many of us get to do that? I'm lucky to have 45min. before a show.

But he's also totally old school. He does with his 6, 31bnd eq's,(separate monitors, and mixes for 2 guitars, bass, and drummer, and eq. for the mains) what I do with my DriveRack for mains and house mix 2 little monitors, or IEM's. I think he's too complicated, and he is amazed I can get away so simply. And especially with multi condenser mic's. He's also heard our band and is impressed with the sound, and that I can get away with 1hr setup, and everything on two hand trucks.

That's why I give myself a break when the "unwizardlike" thing happens. Not enough time to change up for all the different factors that happens EVERY time. I guess you would call it windage :) But the KISS factor is ringing in my ears all the time too.

TonyP

Jul-01-2009, 12:41pm

and now to make Steve laugh till his sides hurt, behold, the wife's well worn London Fog travel bag,:

TonyP

Jul-01-2009, 12:46pm

now magically transformed into suuuper monitor bag! all I added was just some padding, the straps were already there!! And all the pockets etc are perfect for the related cords etc. And to think she was going to give it away, bonus... I have to say, I got the idea from some online store selling the same thing modded for the Mackie 450's, and that got me to thinkin'. But I never dreamed it would work this good.

mandroid

Jul-01-2009, 3:36pm

i have my 2 carvin passive PM5's in an a purple Bag , no wheels on that,though..
[vinyl lined, I think it was for diapers]

Love to see a picture of the stand combination for the mains/wing monitors set up, together, Tony.

you clamp it to the upright of the speaker stand?

TonyP

Jul-01-2009, 4:42pm

My apologies for the mild hijack, and the repeat of the pic I posted before of this...

I thought 'bout that mandroid, but it would be too low. Most times the mains 12 is about head height on me, so I decided to come up with something that would clamp onto the handles of the mains. And because they're on both sides of the cabinet, no problem. I did have to make a left and a right clamp so they are specific to sides. I use mic quick connects to attach/hang them with. Unfortunately Mackie didn't see fit to make the bottom mount adjustable, it's got a built in tilt that was no good for what I had in mind. The mounts use the force of the weight to hold itself to the handle, so there's no awkward clamps to tighten. Just open it, and put it on the handle, then push the quick connect into the mount, hook 'em up. No extra stands. The knob on top lets you adjust the aim, and then a twist and it's locked.

Tim2723

Jul-01-2009, 7:37pm

Tony, how do the 150's work out as floor wedges? They seem to be shaped for the job, but I've heard that most people mount them on stands. Can you use them as wedges?

TonyP

Jul-01-2009, 8:18pm

Dunno Tim. I would think they don't have enough tilt to 'em. GVD was using them BEHIND them on the floor on stage and I guess now is using them on stands also. The bottom built in mount has more of a tilt angle to it than the actual bottom of the speaker box. I would guess they are not made for that, but I don't think they made 'em to do what I use 'em for either.

steve V. johnson

Jul-03-2009, 8:48am

Whooooo, lotta good stuff here...

Tony, I LOVE the suitcase for the 150s, well done! I'm still carrying the Alesis 520s in their shipping box. Not the best, but secure, anyway.

The 150s sound much like the Galaxy Audio speakers, and with careful bottom tailoring, they can work really well. I found that I had to get the band to do a soundcheck song and then bring the monitor mix up in 'em while they were playing. If they heard them without the full monitor mix going thru 'em they'd say stuff like 'I used to listen to transistor radios! Been a long time...!'
Right. grrrmph. (just kidding about the grummph.)

Side fills are nice.

I was watching the PBS American Masters program on Garrison Keillor last night and I noticed that on stage there were either Galaxy Hot Spots or Mackie 150s on stands among the band members... And they were facing the audience!!! Playing into the backs (or back of the heads) of the players. That's something that had never occurred to me. We -know- it works, we've heard the show. If that was suggested to me, I would have thought that it would create some oddly-phased ambience on stage when combined with the open mics downstage. I also noticed that the mix position used a digital console (couldn't tell the brand), so I'd assume that there's a lot of control, and full recall for all settings, so the tweaks could be pretty easy.

I had power cords and speaker cables wrapped in one of those (non-adhesive) black spiral plastic 'cable keepers' for a while, and it was great, but we went thru a time of very different-sized rooms, so we ended up taking the wrapping off for the little rooms. I expect that for the long runs we'll re-wrap 'em again.

I'm rambling... sorry. Good stuff, guys!

stv

woodwizard

Jul-03-2009, 9:11am

We use a big ole' tube - powered Peavy monitor in the middle. Works pretty good but man is it heavy to tote around.

TonyP

Jul-03-2009, 12:13pm

The 150s sound much like the Galaxy Audio speakers, and with careful bottom tailoring, they can work really well. I found that I had to get the band to do a soundcheck song and then bring the monitor mix up in 'em while they were playing. If they heard them without the full monitor mix going thru 'em they'd say stuff like 'I used to listen to transistor radios! Been a long time...!'
Right. grrrmph. (just kidding about the grummph.)

As usual, good stuff yourself Steve! and don't worry 'bout rambles, it's all relevant.

That quote by you is priceless, as the tendency is to do the monitors separate from the mains. But since they are going to be the same space, the additive properties of the mains has to be accounted for. And not until you mentioned how you did your eq's did I ever even think about it. Quite a revelation.

The part I had a big problem with was how to effectively do a monitor mix with my little Alesis board. And also retain the other things I was used to. I had to make a program for the dbx DR for the 150's, and I didn't take into account I'd have to come up with some way to keep the bass totally out of the mix. I was using the configuration of in's and out's I was using with the IEM's. On this board because it's made to record with, it's has a different setup than you usual live mixer. First off, there's just one switch that takes you from "monitor", which the mics are working, to, the mic's are dead, but the tape in is going through. That's perfect for when I want canned music for our breaks. So the L of the monitor out would go to the #1 input of the 260, then out to the mains. For IEM's, the R monitor out would go to #2 input of the 260, then to one of the main in's of the headphone amp, and all of the individual headphone amps would be set to mono.

But when I went to the 150's, I thought I'd just use the same wiring, and eq out what I didn't want. And drive the 150's with the output of one of the headphone amps to control volume, and also use the tone controls of the phone amp to tailor the 150's. Nice when I tried it out in the backyard, but a mess when I did the first gig 3mo's later!

I couldn't seem to get any volume and being under the gun doesn't help make me think any clearer. I got it working at almost the last minute, but couldn't keep the bass from rattling the little monitors. Not until I was driving home did the thunderclap happen. I have a efx/aux, pre and post on the mixer. And it dawned on me, the pre wasn't being used, and there it was. Come out of the pre aux with everything but the bass(it turned down) into the 260(so I can run feedback buster, and use the 31bnd eq) on the 150's, then into the headphone amp, then to the 150's. Another oddity that was kickin' me was I have to take the phone amp out of mono for the 150's to get signal. Dunno know why, something obviously shorts the signal or something. Now the feedback buster works right(it was not really isolated from the mains before) and I can control the separate volume of each channel feeding the mix. Our next gig is on the 15hth, so we'll see if I'm just kidding my unwizardly self.....

steve V. johnson

Jul-03-2009, 1:31pm

Geez, Tony, that's... arcane... No offense, please, I had to read it a coupla times to visualize the routing you describe.

The one thing that came up right away was that if your monitor sends were goingt hru the DBX, then you could use the graphic there to saw off the whole bottom. I always make it too safe, the guys complain and I add a little of the bottom back in til they feel good again. That's in any monitor mix, not just for the little speakers. The "little speakers" we use now, those Alesis 520s, will do -way- more bass than we need, in either position, mon's or mains, so the low EQ trims are very different. Most of the time less critical, but sometimes more so.

Tony, what was it I told you about the EQ? I don't remember. I'm glad it works for you, but I hope it wasn't something really wacky... mighta been...
lol!!

(I read somewhere that the basic algorithm of the human mind is 'everything is the same as everything else, except when it isn't', so this is how we learn. That's my excuse.)

I was considering a bank of preamps to record live stuff to software/hard drives, and so I looked at the Alesis, just for eight cheap preamps in one box. The prices are great, but the eqs might as well have been left off for me. Of course, in my application I wouldn't eq anything going to the hard drive anyway.

I keep looking at little mixers, something less bulky than the Mackie 1604vlz Pro, and I often need 4-8 mic inputs, but the search is tremendously frustrating. The price jump from 4 (even junky) mic pre's to six or eight is disproportionately high, and all small mixer EQs suck (for me),
with the low at either 80Hz or 100Hz, the mids at 2.5kHz and the high at 10kHz. Yawn. I don't need help there at all. I assume that these mfrs expect folks to just use 2.5k to turn up the vocals.

Hey Tom (OP) ... has any of this been of any use to you at all?

Aside from the premium one pays for powered/active PA cabinets over small studio monitors... Have you looked at Carvin stuff? I've run across it a number of times, but have never owned any. Carvin stuff seems quite hardy and a good value.

stv

TonyP

Jul-04-2009, 9:54am

No offense taken at all Steve. It does seem somewhat arcane, but mostly because I'm trying to use words instead of diagrams. It's kinda like trying to explain how to tie shoes, it's easier to do it than explain it.

I guess what I was trying to say, the set up I was using before somehow was not getting the bass out of the monitors. I'm not exactly sure why. Even though I have not that many boxes in my signal chain as like my pro buddy would have, there's all kinds of stuff that get in the way. For all I know it was something as stupid as the "button" on the eq. in the 260 being off, or I had wires crossed and was really getting mains signal instead of monitors, so it was not working. Outside during the brightness of day it can be hard to see small details of the buttons changing color from on and off, on the laptop interface. Then the old age need reading glasses adds even more to the mess. Unfortunately flexibility can also be complicated. And while I'm still going to use the eq., I don't want it to be the only way to make the cuts I want. I know the bass is going to be bleeding into the mix from like the 4033 vocal that the bass player/singer uses, even with the bass rolloff on, on the mic. I also use a Oktava 012 on the bass to get the sound more consistent.

It's not that easy of a concept to get hold of, but using the aux. loops is how the big boys do different monitor mixes. So why not start there, and be able to tailor what's even being sent without having to eq. it away was my thought. I guess I'll find out soon enough if I'm on the right track.

foldedpath

Jul-11-2009, 9:29pm

Hi, I thought I'd bump this thread since I just joined the "itty bitty powered monitor" club, with a pair of TC-Helicon VSM-200XT (http://www.tc-helicon.com/voicesolovsm200xt.asp) powered monitors. There's another version, the VSM-300 that includes tone controls but I wanted just a power amp and local gain to keep it simple.

They're designed to mount on a mic stand with a mic boom on top, close to a singer, but in the first tests during band practice they're working fine as a sidefill right next to the mains. On reason I decided on the VSM's is they have two stand mounts underneath that can angle the box either 45 degrees or 90 degrees, and I figured the 90 degree socket will make it easier to jury-rig a bracket that clamps to the speaker stand under the main cabinets. If we're doing a "low profile" gig with main cabinets on the floor, they can just sit on top. We have a gig coming up next weekend where they'll get their first test that way.

As mentioned above with the similar Mackie and Galaxy boxes, they sound better as sidefills than close monitors. All the bass frequencies wrap around from the mains, and the baby monitors just add some clarity in the midrange and highs.

One disclaimer: I'll be using these with one band that includes fiddle, guitar, mandolin, and another that has a mix of acoustic instruments and electric bass (bass running through amp only, not going through the PA), so the monitors don't have to work very hard. In a louder band with drums, I don't think this would work.

Anyway, thanks for the info from others using this type of setup, it was useful in thinking this out. IEM's aren't an option for the two bands I'm in, for cultural and personality reasons (ahem), so this is looking like the next best thing for a lightweight, "combat" PA system that's quick to set up and tear down.

P.S. the two main powered speakers are the new QSC K10's -- smaller and lighter (32 lbs.) than my old SRM450's, and so far I'm really happy with them. Very tight low end (as long as you're not going lower than vocals and guitar), and a very natural sound for acoustic instruments. Those two K10's in tote bags, the two baby TC-Helicon monitors in another small bag, the Soundcraft EFX8 mixer in a gig bag, a roller bag for stands and cables, and I'm all set. If we ever need something larger and can't use a house system, I'll just rent larger powered mains and use the K10's for sidefill monitors instead of the TC-Helicons.

steve V. johnson

Jul-11-2009, 9:45pm

Hey, congratulations!

Are they light &/or balanced enough to be happy on the boom stands?

Wow, QSCs... Very nice, high quality.

Do let us know how they work out?

stv

TonyP

Jul-12-2009, 1:14am

sounds great FP. I wished I could have looked at the TC's. All we have around here are GC's, and the only thing worse than going in and wanting to see something like the TC's and they don't have 'em, is all the guys in GC say they have 'em and love 'em. I had to content myself with they are rocker's, but still. They said there was some kind of changeover, something vague, and didn't know when they would get any more in.......checked on the computer, and the closest one was an outta box demo, they didn't know if it would work. So, impulsively went with the 150's. I do have this little scheme though that for like casuals where we need something for vocals I'll they will come in handy with their little mixer and tone controls.

We have an outside gig Wed nite, and the guys are just salivating that we are going to be using the 150 monitors.....I think the IEM's are history as the cat's outta the bag.

I would love to hear how your new setup works in the heat of battle foldedpath.

gw16

Jul-14-2009, 2:37pm

I use EV SXA 250's. They're killer sounding, powerful and versatile. I bought 4 of them and configure them as monitor or for front of house - they're great for either. You can also patch a couple an XLR and 1/4" straight into it and use it as a stand alone "single speaker" p.a. They're pretty heavy, but I love the sound of a wood cabinet - I just have never found a plastic cab to compare to these.

Tim2723

Jul-14-2009, 8:05pm

...I love the sound of a wood cabinet - I just have never found a plastic cab to compare to these.

I'm SOOOO glad somebody said that. I've been playing with poly cabinets for two years now, and I just haven't been able to get used to them. Before that I always played through heavy, old-fashioned, dinosaur-vintage wood cabinets. Then again, maybe my dissatisfaction is because I'm dinosaur-vintage myself. :whistling:

TonyP

Jul-16-2009, 9:52am

Just wanted to keep this thread alive. Got to run the mini monitors again, and this time no last minute frazzle. Worked like a charm. And driving them with my headphone amp gave me not only the volume control I was looking for, but also the tone control. I still had the eq under 500hz completely rolled off. But with the tone controls on the headphone amp, I was able to get a little more mud out and didn't have to go running to the 150's tone controls to mess with them. I have some more tweeking to do with cables like shortening up the power IEC cables for the 150's to try and cut down on the amount of stuff that's hangin'. These http://www.guitarcenter.com/Live-Wire-14-AWG-Daisy-Chain-IEC-Power-Cable-330894-i1166806.gc
have really come in handy. Went really good, everybody could hear great. I guess the next test comes when we play inside somewhere. So far I'm pretty happy, and the guys ecstatic. But are going to fight me big time if I try to get us back to the IEM's. But hey, might not be a bad thing.

foldedpath

Jul-16-2009, 8:01pm

I'm SOOOO glad somebody said that. I've been playing with poly cabinets for two years now, and I just haven't been able to get used to them. Before that I always played through heavy, old-fashioned, dinosaur-vintage wood cabinets. Then again, maybe my dissatisfaction is because I'm dinosaur-vintage myself. :whistling:

Nah, it's your ears telling you they're better, and I agree. I think wood ply cabinets do sound better. It may be the stiffness, or the way they don't "leak" as much to the rear. It's easier to keep the FOH mix and volume from getting into the stage mics without that leakage, which I think all poly cabinets are prone to.

If they just weren't so danged heavy. I like wood PA cabs when someone else is setting them up, and carting them home after the show. If it's me schlepping the gear.... plastic is good! :)

TonyP

Jul-17-2009, 7:42pm

I guess more of Your Mileage May Vary when we got rid of the wood cabinets. The ones we were using (ancient Peavey's) were a nightmare to eq. and get rid of feedback and weighed a ton. When we went to the Mackie's, same "frontend", to eq was a piece of cake, and even the wives, and the rest of the band was impressed with how much better it sounded, even on stage. But I guess that's just me as I'm nowhere the pro the previous posters are.
And as far as feedback etc., that's another area the ol dbx 260 shines. I run the anti feedback with 10 fixed "slots" and 2 live, so if anything happens with the mains to feedback, it clamps down on the feedback before it even gets going. And the IEM program I had for it, has an auto leveler in it, and it worked wonderful. As far as sound, I preferred some of the cheap non sealing non pro headphones like the Philips I had. But none of them stayed in good when it got sweaty or singing a lot. I like my M-audio's a lot. But like you said, you can't hear when somebody is trying to talk to you off mic. But I could hear crowd noise, attenuated of course, but we use all condenser's, and especially the 4033 picked up more than enough crowd noise for me. I would think putting an open mic into the crowd would defeat the purpose as I don't want to hear that delayed house stuff. But I guess I don't get enough hands for my breaks to care about crowd noise :) I did notice far less grousing from the guys when I put some reverb on the headphone mix.

Jonathan Reinhardt

Jul-17-2009, 9:39pm

well Tony, there are Peaveys and there are Peaveys. ( + and - !!) some were not really wood. even heavier, subsequently.
but back to the topic at hand - we all need to provide for each and every member of the band that they can hear the mix and themselves. that may be different for each of us who try to provide that. I know that I have a different system than all of you, and you all have differing systems. not an easy task, this soundperson responsibility. difficulty compounded by differing demands from different bands.
a practiced acoustic band, at small time gigs, should be able to function on stage with very basic gear. larger gigs do require extra. can the band afford extra help? gear? step at a time, it is. if it is a once in a while occurrence that the gig is large or needs differing gear - get help, rent/borrow gear, or let the band ante up. I no longer feel compelled to provide everything for every situation for one extra $ share a nite. thankful that I get it, but it doesn't allow for growth or proper replacement of equipment.
Jonathan