amplification quest - beyond silver bullet

[Jim Nollman]

Been reading with great interest the current thread about the silver bullet attachable mandolin microphone.

I've been using a Schertler dyn mic, almost exclusively for a while now. Unfortunately, what worked so exceedingly well to amplify my F hole Eastman, now seems less than perfect as a microphone for my oval hole BRW. This is an issue, because right now, I am performing a lot with the BRW. If you think about it, placing a gooseneck condenser mic right over the oval hole does make more sense for transparently amplifying the acoustic sound, than sticking a Schertler right onto the faceplate behind the bridge. Even if I haven't actually tried it yet.

My own ongoing amplification quest made me do a little research. I have found at least three other microphones of significantly different prices that also attach by clamp to the mandolin body.

1. DPA 4099
2. Audiotechnica 350
3. AMT VS

I have read other threads on the Cafe devoted to the AT 350, but almost nothing about the other 2. I'm curious if anyone can comment about either of these. Or even better, compare any or all of them to each other. The DPA and the AMT are clearly made for the professional performing market. I'm not in that league, but I am willing to pay good money for something that makes my instrument shine, although perhaps without all the bells and whistles. Having said that, I am much impressed by the ingenious rubber clamping mechanisms of these two high end products.

[foldedpath]

Jim, here's some feedback on two of those -- I don't have the AMT VS but I have one ATM350 and two DPA 4099's.

The ATM350 was the first higher-end mini condenser I tried. It's a great mic with a nice flat response. It sounds very natural on mandolin, usually needing just a little high EQ cut to fit nicely in a mix. I used the Tonegard on my mandolin as an attachment point, clipping the gooseneck mount around the back side on the Tonegard. The mic reaches up over the side, and points at the bottom of the treble side F-hole, sort of at an angle (not directly down into the hole) so it's also picking up some top vibration.

I ended up trying the DPA 4099 mainly because the ATM350 got hijacked by the fiddler in our trio, and I was looking for something with a better mount on fiddle (the included velcro fiddle mount picks up a lot of breath noise). Also I was curious about the new 4099 series anyway, since DPA is a high-end studio condenser mic manufacturer, and I'd heard some online buzz about it.

The 4099 is a very different design from other mini condensers I've seen. It's a tiny mic capsule at the end of a little tube, covered with a miniature foam "blimp". It's basically a miniature shotgun mic with an extremely tight pattern.

It comes with a very well-designed carpenter jack-type mounting system, which allows as much or as little of the gooseneck to be extended from the clamp as you need. The clamp is very small and lightweight, and it goes on and off with just a pinch at the bottom between your thumb and forefinger. It's much faster to mount and remove than the ATM350's gooseneck mount with alligator clip, which is a little fussy depending on how you're setting it up. The 4099's mic and foam blimp is a little smaller than the ATM350, so the visual profile is a less obtrusive. There is a version for violin/mandolin with a short clamp, and another version with wider clamp jaws for guitar. There are other versions for wind and brass.

On the frequency plot there's a slight high frequency bump that should, theoretically, sound a little more harsh than the ATM350. In practice, I don't hear it. It just has a smooth, natural sound. Our fiddler likes it better than the ATM350 (he has super-critical hearing) and it has better feedback rejection than the ATM350, although none of these mics are perfect in that regard. Point them the right way with enough gain in the PA, and they're gonna feed back a little earlier than a pickup would. This is controllable with EQ or an auto-feedback eliminator, but it's something to be aware of.

Since our fiddle player grabbed the 4099 and won't let go, I got another 4099 for my mandolin, and also ordered a spare clamp in the larger guitar size so I could use it on my resonator guitar. I'm using the ATM350 now on my octave mandolin, so it still has a home.

The DPA 4099's only downside is the price, which is considerable; it's over twice the price of the ATM350 (roughly $600 USD). The accessory clamp is priced in the stratosphere too, if you want the additional size. Considering the value of my mandolin and other instruments, and the overall quality of mini PA system I'm trying to put together, I think it's worth it... especially with that great mounting system.

While the DPA 4099 might be the current cream of the crop for this sort of thing, the ATM350, the Pro 35, the K&K Silver Bullet (which I haven't heard, but it has a good rep) are all very good mics. This is an area where you can't make a seriously bad choice, unless you go for a Radio Shack cheapie.

[mcH]

>>.... If you think about it, placing a gooseneck condenser mic right over the oval hole does make more sense for transparently amplifying the acoustic sound, than sticking a Schertler right onto the faceplate behind the bridge. <<

I used the K&K with my oval hole last week and discovered that if the mic head got within an inch of the oval hole, I'd get feed back. I did remount the mic so that the mic head was situated behind the bridge, in effect the same way you have your Schertler mounted.

[Jim Nollman]

Thanks for the advice, Folded Path. Your thoughts on the matter, are pretty much in line with what I am thinking. I sometimes play with fiddle player who uses the AMT mike. She raves about it. I have a feeling its a draw with the 4099.

And, to steal my own thread, Sheryl, I'm wondering if you can answer a question about mounting the Schertler that no one has ever been able to answer with any authority. As the directions explain, I form the ring of gum around the element, then stick it on the mandolin. On my oval hole instrument, the best placement seems to be just behind the treble side of the bridge and slightly downward.

This Schertler is a microphone not a transducer. As such, I've been wondering if it is critical to keep the element slightly elevated off the mandolin's faceplate? Unfortunately, when I stick it down, the gum often flattens until the device gets stopped by the slight bump of the element itself. In that case, the element is in direct contact with the wood. Do I do better to keep some slight amount of air between the element and the wood? If so, how much?

Or...and I never thought of this before this moment...I realize I'm not really sure if the Schertler element is on the top or the bottom of the device?

[mandroid]

drifting off topic with you.. po-tay-toe, po-taah-to.. ;)
I'd say a contact microphone or microphonic transducer-dynamic type is a reasonable description,
the rubber pip in the middle put in contact with the soundboard,

N.B. "center spot making contact" is the phrase, in the user's manual ..

the putty ring isolating it from the extraneous sounds, coming in, at a level short of ringing the whole top.
then the whole mandolin is an air pressure wave driven microphone.



shaken not stirred.. :grin:

[Jim Nollman]

thanks for that explanation Mandroid. With your expertise (and experience) in amplifying an acoustic mandolin, I'm curious if you'd had a chance to try any of these gooseneck mic solutions.

[mandroid]

I mostly read the manuals throw in some common sense and simple electrical knowledge and go to company websites , to sound like an expert. ;)

got a sense lots of questions come from folks that haven't been curious enough or too busy to look it up... :disbelief:

now looking at K&K site the silver bullet looks from the frequency response graph to be flat from a little over 20 Htz to a bit past 10KHz, and drops off from there, spec is 20 to 20Khz but there is some frequency response dip at the extremes , but pretty much covers the normal audible range.

everything I hear now is overlaid with tonitis , so I'll Have to leave it to younger folks to judge the fine points of sound coloration.. :whistling:

:popcorn:

[jim_n_virginia]

I have an Audio- Technica Pro 70 which is not a goose neck mic but a clip on condensor mic that has a lapel attachment and a felt instrument attachment.

It works well and the sound sounds better than any piezo I have tried except that it is sorta in the way for me when I play. And you have to be careful about getting too close to another mic (like a vocal mic) because of feedback.

It is one of my MANY attempts at trying to escape being tethered to a mic but I always seem to come back to playing into a mic. :mandosmiley:

[mcH]

>>And, to steal my own thread, Sheryl, I'm wondering if you can answer a question about mounting the Schertler that no one has ever been able to answer with any authority. As the directions explain, I form the ring of gum around the element, then stick it on the mandolin. On my oval hole instrument, the best placement seems to be just behind the treble side of the bridge and slightly downward.

This Schertler is a microphone not a transducer. As such, I've been wondering if it is critical to keep the element slightly elevated off the mandolin's faceplate? Unfortunately, when I stick it down, the gum often flattens until the device gets stopped by the slight bump of the element itself. In that case, the element is in direct contact with the wood. Do I do better to keep some slight amount of air between the element and the wood? If so, how much?<<

Ahh, you're confusing me with someone who has a Schertler (and actually knows something). :-)
I do have an Autolycus pickup that attaches by a clip that holds it flat onto the top of the mandolin. I'm thinking that if there is any similarity in the two, you would want your Schertler pressed firmly onto the top, so that it picks up all the vibrations from the wood.