Bose PAS system [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

jim_n_virginia

Jun-20-2009, 1:53am

Well we had our first gig today with our new Bose systems. We have two of them. Two L1's and two bass modules and boy what a breeze it was to set up and pack up when we were done.

Normally we had been using my PA system with 2 JBL 15" mains on poles and 2 JBL 12" monitors, powered amp, one condenser mic and 3 instrument mics. This equipment would fill my pickup truck bed when I transported it.

I bought one and cwilson our guitar player bought one.

We used a AT-4033 mic on it and it worked beautifully. We played outdoors at a large golf turnament under a gazebo and the sound was great.

We plan to pic up another AT-4033 and eliminate the other instrument mics and just have two condenser mics 4 feet apart.

I love the fact that we don't need monitors that the music just sorta wraps around you.

I had one a while back and I used it a little but not all that much so I got rid of it for the PA system. That was a huge mistake!

I am going to keep the PA system in case we need it but probably we will use the Bose now since we have two of them. Two of then REALLY makes a difference!

I see that Bose make a new compact PAS system but it looked pretty weak.

I would like to get a T1 (Tone Match) and play around with it. I know a sing/songwriter who uses one and swears by it.

Anybody else play with one?

ninevah

Jun-20-2009, 6:20am

Jim,
Please describe your band. How many players, what instruments, how many sing at one time, any instruments plugged in or all using mics, etc?

What tone match pre-set mic setting did you use? I do not see the AT4033 listed as one of the options.

Thanks

Barb Friedland

Jun-20-2009, 6:43am

A friend of mine who plays in a 4 piece Celtic band just invested in this system. He also has the LI, but just one of them. They are amplifying 4 instruments and 2 vocal mics. I listened to his band play through this thing and it's pretty cool. The sound was really good. It was a noisy bar environment and yet the band members had no problems hearing each other. Plus the sound seemed evenly dispersed through the room.

I'm really interested in this thing. Is there some restriction on what mics can be used with the standard system?

jim_n_virginia

Jun-20-2009, 6:49am

6 member bluegrass band 2 guitars, mandolin, fiddle, banjo, upright bass and 3 vocals. Bass plugs in with a Fishman pickup everyone else plays into a mic.

Big condenser mic in the middle and two instrument mics off to the side. Fiddle plays into the left instrument mic and the mandolin and banjo plays into the right instrument mic. Vocals and guitars and vocals in the middle and when I sing harmony or sing a song I got to the middle with my mandolin.

Presets are set flat at 00

We are still trying to figure out how to handle this. We have another gig today and we are using the system again so we are going to move around a bit. It's a block party so we can experiment around a little.

We are still trying to figure out the best place for tower placement for maximum gain. He had them on either side of us yesterday and we got pretty good volume but I am reading this morning on the Bose Forum that for bluegrass it is better to have the towers in front of you.

I am wondering it will make it harder to hear what's coming out? I am going to try it and see. If it doesn't work or we can't hear I'll just drag the towers back some as we are on a street and do not have the constraints of a stage to deal with.

I used to dread when we had to provide the sound and now for the first time in a long time I look forward to setting everything up I KNOW this is just because I have a new toy to play with! LOL! :mandosmiley:

jim_n_virginia

Jun-20-2009, 6:58am

Is there some restriction on what mics can be used with the standard system?

No restrictions that I can see. The system supplies phantom power so you could use a condenser mic or a regular dynamic mic.

Each system has 4 channels. 2 XLR channels and 2 TRS (1/4" jacks)channels
of course you could plug in a mixing board and have as many channels as you want.

The sound is important to my ears but almost just as important to me is how easy it is to set up and pack up. I swear yesterday I packed up in 10 minutes after I rolled up the cords and put the mics away. And NO heavy mains to lug around! :mandosmiley:

Barb Friedland

Jun-20-2009, 8:22am

The sound is important to my ears but almost just as important to me is how easy it is to set up and pack up. I swear yesterday I packed up in 10 minutes after I rolled up the cords and put the mics away. And NO heavy mains to lug around! :mandosmiley:

Sweet! Now I AM interested! :whistling:

Michael Eck

Jun-20-2009, 3:48pm

We use the first generation Bose system with our historic music duo, The Gospel Train. It's been nothing but great for us. We use one large diaphragm mic or a nice stereo mic and we're good to go. Love it.

jim_n_virginia

Jun-20-2009, 10:08pm

Well the system passed the heat test today it was freakin 95 degrees and we had to play for 3 hours outside. Me and the banjo player about died! LOL!

Food was good and plenty of berr, wine and soft drinks and we got paid pretty good but man we earned EVERY cent of that money WHEW was it hot!

System worked flawlessly with quick setup as usual. We got there at 5:30 pm and was setup and ready to play by 6pm. Sound checks are a piece of cake!

Only problem was we had to put our towers in a weird place on each side and I could get maximum gain in the main condensor (vocal mic) the instruments came through loud and clear and the vocals sounded good to just could turn them up as loud as the instrumenst because of feedback.

With the one mic setup Bose recommends putting the towres in front of you and we couldn't. Closest we could accomodate was directly to our side.

Also a big pain was this was the second gig in 3 days where we had a lot of noise to contend with. Friday there we were outside for a big gold tourney and a huge AC unit was close to us and today the generator off a 40' catering truck was right next to where they wanted us to play.

I am thinking in ear monitors would be awesome in a noisey environments like that! I am really liking these Bose PAS systems. Two of them REALLY makes a HUGE difference.
:mandosmiley:

jim_n_virginia

Jun-20-2009, 10:12pm

Well the system passed the heat test today it was freakin 95 degrees and we had to play for 3 hours outside. Me and the banjo player about died! LOL!

Food was good and plenty of beer, wine and soft drinks and we got paid pretty good but man we earned EVERY cent of that money WHEW was it hot!

System worked flawlessly with quick setup as usual. We got there at 5:30 pm and was setup and ready to play by 6pm. Sound checks are a piece of cake!

Only problem was we had to put our towers in a weird place on each side and I couldn't get maximum gain in the main condenser (vocal mic) the instruments came through loud and clear and the vocals sounded good too just couldn't turn them up as loud as the instruments because of feedback. So I had to turn the instruments down a hair to match.

With the one mic setup Bose recommends putting the towers in front of you and we couldn't. Closest we could accommodate was directly to our side.

Also a big pain was this was the second gig in 3 days where we had a lot of noise to contend with. Friday there we were outside for a big golf tourney and a huge AC unit was close to us and today the generator off a 40' catering truck was right next to where they wanted us to play.

I am thinking in ear monitors would be awesome in a noisy environments like that! I am really liking these Bose PAS systems. Two of them REALLY makes a HUGE difference.
:mandosmiley:

Tim2723

Jun-21-2009, 7:54am

Thanks for these reports Jim! I've been on the fence about these since they came out a while back. Of course, every time I get close to a decision they change something. These are now in what, the third version? And to complicate things further, Fishman came out with their take on an array system. Dang!! I'll never make my mind up! LOL.

The reviews from electric guitar players in concert halls an clubs are OK, but we need folks like you with real life experiences in the kind of places that mandolin players earn their dough.

I'm wondering how well these will hold up to the road. The Bose Dawn (?) system seemed really nice, but ended up being fragile. What are your thoughts on the sturdiness of the L1?

jim_n_virginia

Jun-21-2009, 10:19am

They are on their 3rd upgrade. The first one was the classic L1 which I had one. It was just a basic system. Then they came out with the L1 model II which is basically the same system but with more presets and a few changes on the control board.

Now they have new one i don't know what model that is but it looks much lighter as it has fold out feet instead of the big D base and it comes with the ToneMatch (T1) which gives you more control of the sound. Also the array is wider on the new ones I am told 180 degrees as opposed to 120 on the L1 model I like I had. But the new ones are a LOT more dough so that is why we got two of the model II's

Seems durable to me. I had a single system for a few years and it held up well. It comes with bags that protect it pretty good. Like any electronic equipment I wouldn't drop it.

Yeah I saw the Fishman copy and I checked it out when I bought my new one last week and while it seemed to work well I just didn't see anything Fishman had done that improved on the Bose idea other than it was less expensive so I got the Bose.

And thats another thing I get a lot of ("that thing is TOO expensive!") from musician friends but when I add up what I got into my PA system it is about the same money.

I dunno maybe this Bose thing will be a bust maybe not but what I am trying to do is have a good sounding system that packs small (I can fit everything in the back of my SUV without folding any seats down!) and minimal mics and wires. That is the dream! LOL!

foldedpath

Jun-21-2009, 5:48pm

Jim (and everyone else), thanks for the feedback on these PAS setups. The more real-world info we have on forums like this, the better. I've heard the system in a store, but that wasn't a good place to try it out.

I did briefly consider the system while trying to downsize our current SRM450-based rig, but it got shot down for several reasons. I could probably get away with one L1/II tower + sub for the trio, but we'd need two towers for the 4-piece band. Probably at least two for the trio also, if we get into playing more contra dances. Those long, narrow grange halls are a pain to cover with a small PA, and you need enough volume to carry over the sound of the dancers. As the person supplying the PA, two L1/II's with subs is just a bit more than I wanted spend, unless there were no other options. And at that price, there are a lot of options out there.

Another thing... we sometimes play on tiny stages, where there wouldn't be much room to get the towers away from the pickup pattern of the mics and nearby reflective walls. With five open mics, that's gotta be a recipe for feedback. The system seems designed to work best when you can spread out a bit, and find the ideal location for the towers.

I dunno maybe this Bose thing will be a bust maybe not but what I am trying to do is have a good sounding system that packs small (I can fit everything in the back of my SUV without folding any seats down!) and minimal mics and wires. That is the dream! LOL!

Sure is! All I want is a small system that doesn't break my back for small gigs, and is fast to set up and tear down. Anything larger, and we can use house PA systems. That's another consideration, actually. I didn't want to get the band members used to the PAS approach to ambient/reflective monitoring (assuming it even works in every situation), and then have to switch gears when using a more traditional house PA with floor wedges. If you're always playing similar-sized, predictable venues and always supplying the band PA, this wouldn't be an issue.

Anyway, for what it's worth.... I decided on a pair of QSC K10 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/K_Series/) powered speakers for mains (32 lbs. each). For the smallest gigs we either won't use monitors (using angle-in bleed from the mains), or we'll use little micro jobs like the Mackie SRM150's or TC-Helicon VSM-200 XT, I haven't decided on that part yet. Then for larger gigs, we can either substitute the SRM450's for mains and use the K10's for monitors, or just use the house system. I like being able to scale up or down like that. The "all in one" approach of the PAS doesn't fit what we do, but it might be the right choice for others in some cases... especially solo acts, which seems to be one of the main marketing targets. If I was a singer/songwriter type playing small venues, I'd be looking a lot harder at it (or the Fishman competition).

Keep posting about how that Bose system is working out for you. I'm especially curious about smaller rooms and cramped stages.

pops1

Jun-21-2009, 9:29pm

I've been using a carvin system for years, one 12 and a horn. the speakers are birch plywood and very light and the head is 12 channel and three power amps for a total of 1000 watts. two for mains and two for monitors. i recently did sound for Michael Martin Murphy after our gig and before set up as bose to try it out and it would not cover the room (large) so had to set up the carvin. we used the bose for another area, but could not get much volume before feedback. The bose are designed for each person in the band to have one. With 12 channels, i seldom use more than two for the ADK mics, but they are there if i need them and its a small unit with two eq's. Guess i'm still old school, but as i am old it has to be light and they are, easily carry both speakers at once any distance up or down, very light. I have been wanting to build speakers with quality 8" speakers like my moniters for mains, and have an 8" sub if needed, for acoustic instruments it really sounds good and is all you need. Just have to find time to do it.

jim_n_virginia

Jun-22-2009, 1:25am

i recently did sound for Michael Martin Murphy after our gig and before set up as bose to try it out and it would not cover the room (large) so had to set up the carvin. we used the bose for another area, but could not get much volume before feedback. The bose are designed for each person in the band to have one. .

Bose recommends a system each for each band member but remember they are selling them!

I have seen quite a few 4, 5 and 6 member bands use 2 or 3 systems and got plenty of volume.

I am thinking you probably didn't have the towers placed right because I have been to many concerts at the auditorium at the Virginia Beach Central Library where the Tidewater Friends of Folk Music have all their concerts and they use only two systems and it fills the entire auditorium and it seat 300 and it has very high ceilings.

The placement of the speakers have to be forward of the mics if you are using a condenser mic this much I know I am still experimenting.

We just did an outdoor street festival with two systems with at least 200 people in attendance and we had plenty of power.

Also you can add a Bose Packlite accessory to increase power and add the chest pounding bass if you need it. Also many people also add bass modules for more power.

Since we are a typical Bluegrass band we don't need blast like that.

Trust me I am old school also and very skeptical but at 63lbs total for the system and I can pack everything in the back area of my SUV without folding down the seats well it doesn't even compare to my PA system in ease of transport.

I have to use my small pickup truck with a camper shell on it to move my powered amp, 2 mains and 2 monitors.

My biggest problem now if figuring out what mics to use and mic placement so we don't have to shuffle around. With both systems we have a total of 8 channels but if I needed more all I would have to do is plug in a small mixer.

jim_n_virginia

Jun-22-2009, 1:31am

we used the bose for another area, but could not get much volume before feedback. .

adjusting the Bose for maximum gain is not like EQing a regular mixer I am finding out it is a little different and really pretty easy once you get it down.

I can now EQ the system where it is almost impossible to make it feed back. I did have problems on one gig we did because of weird space constraints.

I dunno I am goingto keep playing around with this and see if I can make it work for us. I still have my big PA if I need it so I do have a back up.

David Miller

Jun-22-2009, 6:31am

I play in an acoustic duo (guitar / mandolin, both vocal) where we both use the PAS systems (one each). It is a dream, for so many reasons. Set-up, tear-down, and transportation are almost worth the price of admission right off the bat, but what sells it for me is being able to hear exactly what the audience is hearing. I cant say how many times I have found myself playing way harder than necessary, and locking up the technique as a result, when playing through a traditional sound system. Even with a good system and a good engineer, having to perform to the monitor mix always felt weird to me. The bottom line is - I just play better through the Bose. On those (now rare) occasions now where I am playing a traditional system, I invariably come away feeling slightly unsatisfied with the performance.

They are worth a close look at, if you haven't given them one already, and I am glad to hear other folks out there who are having similar success with them.

My 2 cents...

Rob Gerety

Jun-22-2009, 7:00am

Even with a good system and a good engineer, having to perform to the monitor mix always felt weird to me.

I am brand new to all this and reading with great interest - but I did feel compelled to comment that the few times I have played out I too felt very unsettled about the fact that I had no idea what the audience (dancers in my case) was hearing.

pops1

Jun-22-2009, 7:25am

Didn't mean to sound like i was trashing the bose, it is a good system, this event was one guy with and acoustic guitar. the early check with the bose was with recorded music and the event was in a large covered horse arena seating 700 you could hear the bose, but it just did not have the power needed. adding the bass module would have made the sound hard to understand when talking as base was easy to achieve because of a natural reverberation in the arena.(surprise me, thought it would be like outside) A friend of mine uses one and tours the states playing solo electric blues with amps sings through the bose sometimes lining out the amp and loves his. Says it has made hard rooms much easier to play. The two times i have used one it wasn't mine and i feel tower placement were a problem, but it was hard to get volume without feedback.

jim_n_virginia

Jun-22-2009, 12:57pm

and the event was in a large covered horse arena seating 700 you could hear the bose, but it just did not have the power needed. .

I guess not! LOL! 700! My PA system would not even handle that size of a crowd! For something that big there has always been sound supplied to us so far.

I didn't mean to sound like the Bose is the one size fits all. Actually I have 3 different systems for three different scenarios.

For small quiet vuenues I have two Marshall Acoustic amps on tilt back stands with 4 channels just to boost up vocals for our full band or mic up a trio or duo

Then I have the Bose for small to medium venues like up to 200 or so

Then I have my big PA with 15" JBL mains on stands and 12" JBL monitors when I need raw power to blast like a large outdoor event

99% of the gigs we get are of the small to medium size with less than 100 people so that is why the Bose system is perfect for us.

Tim2723

Jun-22-2009, 3:24pm

Jim, what I like about your review is that you have realistic expectations for the technology. 700 people in an arena? My big system could handle it and a bit more besides, but it travels in a Plymouth minivan with all but the two front seats removed. Nothing you could pack into the back of an SUV could ever handle that requirement. I salute whoever tried to serve 700 folks with a 'Talking Totem Pole'. They are real troopers!!

pops1

Jun-24-2009, 9:09pm

jim_n_virginia

Jun-26-2009, 5:16am

For the 700 i used one carvin powered head, two 12" carvin speakers and two 15" speakers. Sub not necessary. worked great and all fit into a ford escort wagon alone with speaker stand monitors and mic cases and instruments.

Bose PAS carried in back of Nissan Pathfinder with the seats up and carried in one trip (on a small luggage dolly) inside! LOL!:mandosmiley:

Joe Hinkebein

Sep-09-2009, 10:41am

Hey Jim,
I was getting ready to post a query about the Bose PAS when I found this thread. I recently purchased the Bose L1 Model 2 with the T1 sound engine. I haven't got to use it out yet, but have had a couple of opportunities to use it in practice. I am glad to hear that you have found it useful. I think it may take some trial and error to find the best way to make it work. I don't have any instruments with internal or attached pick-ups, so will go with dynamic mics (at least to start with). I am hoping it will provide the flexibility I need for the ensembles I am in. While I have played in straight ahead bluegrass bands, the current configuration is a mix of Norman Blake-ish old-time, some Grismanesque tunes, Missouri fiddle tunes, and various and sundry acoustic oddities. I am hoping that the Bose will serve as a way to deliver vocals (two singers) and my mandolin/fiddle/guitar while the other three instrumentalists use free standing acoustic amplifiers. We'll see how it goes and I will post back to this thread when I get some more experience with the rig. The band is "The Metrobillies" ("String Band Music for All Occasions").

Thanks for starting this thread.
Joe Hinkebein

Gutbucket

Sep-09-2009, 4:50pm

Bose recommends a system each for each band member but remember they are selling them!

I have seen quite a few 4, 5 and 6 member bands use 2 or 3 systems and got plenty of volume.

I am thinking you probably didn't have the towers placed right because I have been to many concerts at the auditorium at the Virginia Beach Central Library where the Tidewater Friends of Folk Music have all their concerts and they use only two systems and it fills the entire auditorium and it seat 300 and it has very high ceilings.

The placement of the speakers have to be forward of the mics if you are using a condenser mic this much I know I am still experimenting.

We just did an outdoor street festival with two systems with at least 200 people in attendance and we had plenty of power.

Also you can add a Bose Packlite accessory to increase power and add the chest pounding bass if you need it. Also many people also add bass modules for more power.

Since we are a typical Bluegrass band we don't need blast like that.

Trust me I am old school also and very skeptical but at 63lbs total for the system and I can pack everything in the back area of my SUV without folding down the seats well it doesn't even compare to my PA system in ease of transport.

I have to use my small pickup truck with a camper shell on it to move my powered amp, 2 mains and 2 monitors.

My biggest problem now if figuring out what mics to use and mic placement so we don't have to shuffle around. With both systems we have a total of 8 channels but if I needed more all I would have to do is plug in a small mixer.

The 5 piece band I was in used a single Bose tower and two AT-3035 mics. We also miked our upright bass with a Shure SM-58 mic. We went thru a 4 input unpowered Peavy mixer. Before we used this rig, I called Bose and was told it might sound "muddy". But it worked just fine. We had more of a problem doing the microphone "shuffle" when soloing and taking breaks. A few collisitions and we had it licked. I love the portability of the whole system. I was also told by a few so called experts that they don't work well outdoors. It needs to bounce of interior walls. That maybe true, but we never had a problem with playing outdoor venues. We're talking Bluegrass and some Gospel music here, not Led Zeppelin. :mandosmiley:

Tim2723

Sep-09-2009, 6:02pm

I really wish I needed another PA. I'd love to play around with one of these.

jim_n_virginia

Sep-09-2009, 6:10pm

Hey we've now had our two Bose PAS systems a couple of months now and through trial and error I have finally figured out the best way to use it.

If you are goint to use dynamic mics and just plug in and plug in instruments with dynamic instrument mics you won't have any problem. With the towers behind you (so you won't need monitors) just plug and play.

If you use a condensor mic the towers have to be in front of you. We use two of them and you have to tilt the towers out about 10 degrees so the mic doesn't feed into it. If you only have one tower then just tilt that one away.

We used two AT-4033's and we tilt those inward. You can look inside and see what looks like a round disc, I don't know what it is called but we turn those so they are about 10 degrees inward. If using one mic (cond remember) I guess you would turn it away a little from the tower.

Doing it this way I can get maximum gain and we have played a noisey outdoor festival on the waterfront with this setup and had NO problem.

But I have to admit where this system really shines is indoors in a medium to small auditorium. No PA system can compare the sound is just so clean and crisp and so natural sounding.

Ben Milne

Sep-09-2009, 7:06pm

I think an act at my local Pub was using one of these towers a while back... Certainly i was impressed with the output (SPL) of the system and i can see it would be a great system for a lot of bluegrass acts, playing smaller venues. placement of the towers and mics did seem a little odd ball for traditional placement, but there was no arguing about the efficiency of the tower ( I'm trying to watch the footy here,...)

I would anticipate that it would run out of legs if placed in a concert style venue, but i get the feeliing that would start to be outside of the intended application. great to hear people are having success...

bonny

Sep-10-2009, 8:40am

I would anticipate that it would run out of legs if placed in a concert style venue, but i get the feeliing that would start to be outside of the intended application. great to hear people are having success...

I'm a stagehand (mostly a rigger and lighting guy these days) and I've worked for years in a pro hockey venue that until recently had a Bose PA and it was substandard compared to a line array....."No highs, no lows? Must be Bose." What works well for some folks in a small rig doesn't seem to transfer into a large one.

jim_n_virginia

Sep-10-2009, 4:37pm

I've worked for years in a pro hockey venue that until recently had a Bose PA and it was substandard compared to a line array....."No highs, no lows? Must be Bose." What works well for some folks in a small rig doesn't seem to transfer into a large one.

Sorry Jeff no offence but you don't know what you are talking about here. We are not talking about a Bose PA system. We are talking about the Bose Personal Amplification System which IS a line array system.

And the old tired "no high's or lows must be Bose" cliche is left over prejudice from the past.
And this system is not made for a large rig as you put it thats why it is the PERSONAL Amplification System.
LOL! :))

steve V. johnson

Sep-10-2009, 6:46pm

Jim_n_Virginia wrote, "We used two AT-4033's and we tilt those inward. You can look inside and see what looks like a round disc, I don't know what it is called..."

That's the diaphragm of the microphone, a metal-coated mylar membrane stretched and sandwiched into a circular metal frame at the edges. That's the business end of the mic, analagous to the tympanic membranes in our ears, the part that senses the vibrations.

FYI,

stv

steve V. johnson

Sep-10-2009, 6:48pm

"No highs, no lows? Must be Bose."

I remember that. Haven't heard it in years! LOL, thanks!

stv

Willie

Sep-10-2009, 7:07pm

Jim and all...I have been useing the Bose L-1 for three years now here is what I do...I still use an 8 channel mixer/amp head and plug my cables into the pre-amp output before it goes through the 300 watt amp in the head and I feed that into the two channels (stereo) on the D shaped base and control everything with the remote that comes with the unit...I don`t even use the two inputs on the right side of the D shaped base...I have used this at about 3/4 power and people can hear it over 1/4 mile away when we play out doors at some mini festivals...One draw back, which might not be a draw back, is that it will not operate if the supply voltage gets below 110 volts, I have tried using it at a craft show and they supplied us with a generator and to cut down on the noise they ran a 250 ft #12 power cord and it wouldn`t work, the mixer/amp worked so at I first thought the Bose unit had gone bad and I brought it home and plugged it in and it worked fine...I have been playing bluegrass for over forty years and have had at least 10 sound systems and the Bose L-1 is the best I have seen for a full sound and no feedback problems to speak of...I don`t run any mics through the unit itself, I use a mixer/amp like I said above...I honestly believe we are getting more and more jobs because of the great sound system....Good post Jim....Willie

Tim2723

Sep-10-2009, 8:11pm

jim_n_virginia

Sep-10-2009, 10:59pm

Jim, After a couple of months on the road, how is the Bose holding up to wear? And mechanical problems? I've now heard three of these in use and am still impressed with the sound, but I'm still worried about the mechanics. I looks fragile to me.

So far so good! They come with pretty nice padded bags and for those that travel a lot I have seen flight cases that can withstand airline transport.

Don't seem too fragile to me very well made and better be for the price.
I also have a 10 year extended warranty on this as I do most of my sound equipment. If it breaks and they can't repair it I get a new one.

jim_n_virginia

Sep-10-2009, 11:04pm

Jim and all...I have been useing the Bose L-1 for three years now here is what I do...I still use an 8 channel mixer/amp head ...I honestly believe we are getting more and more jobs because of the great sound system....Good post Jim....Willie

Willie I used to use a mixer plugged into it too until we picked up the 2 condensor mics which made it 10X easier to set up.

Now we just set up the two L1's and plug in an AT-4033 into each one and thats it!

Tim2723

Sep-10-2009, 11:44pm

So far so good! They come with pretty nice padded bags and for those that travel a lot I have seen flight cases that can withstand airline transport.

Don't seem too fragile to me very well made and better be for the price.
I also have a 10 year extended warranty on this as I do most of my sound equipment. If it breaks and they can't repair it I get a new one.

Thanks. I'm especially concerned about the connections between the base and the sections of the column. Those look awfully vulnerable. It seems like the smallest bend or dent would be a real problem. Any comments on that?

Shelby Eicher

Sep-11-2009, 12:39am

I don't mean to be a negative voice to all of the wonderful reports on the Bose system but in my professional opinion they are NOT pro gear and although they appeal to acoustic musicians because the concept is designed for that use, they fall considerably short of producing a high quality audio experience. I have had the opportunity to try the Bose system several times and I have always had an experience that was uninspiring. I have a pro speaker system (EAW JFL 100s); I chose these because of their high fidelity and acoustic instrument specificity. The Bose system does not compare and is crude in it's amenities. It's very hard to amplify acoustic instruments and with limited experience the Bose system could be a viable choice. There are many better options but they take serious research and knowledge of gear to pull it off. The Bose system is o.k. if you aren't able to get to pro audio status (money or financial) and it sounds like it in my opinion. I say all of this not to offend but to educate. I have been amplifing acoustic instruments for 30 years and it is one of the most difficult challenges to be mastered. I wish everyone the best in this endeavor. Player, Instrument, Pickup(microphone), Preamp, (Outboard gear), poweramp, speakers. It's the weakest link thing all over again.
Shelby

acousticnotes

Sep-11-2009, 10:01am

I think Jim's main objective is to have a good sounding system that is portable and quick to set up. ( as stated he has a bigger system if need) The EAW JFL 100s you mentioned are 50 pounds apiece. Hardly portable or easy to setup with cables and board. Don't get me wrong I like heavy duty when you don't have to move it but for playing for smaller to mid size venues IMHO I'll take light every time.

Joe

mandroid

Sep-11-2009, 10:58am

Any Juan that has one, is encouraged to send some detail shots of the connections ,
say between the pole speaker sections to each other and the base to pole array .
I can suppose like Tim, that there is a weak spot there particularly if its going to be put together and knocked down for transport a couple hundred times a year.

bonny

Sep-11-2009, 11:21am

I don't mean to be a negative voice to all of the wonderful reports on the Bose system but in my professional opinion they are NOT pro gear and although they appeal to acoustic musicians because the concept is designed for that use, they fall considerably short of producing a high quality audio experience. I have had the opportunity to try the Bose system several times and I have always had an experience that was uninspiring.

The above is what I've been hearing from pro audio people for thirty years. It's also what thirty years of playing on stages and sitting FOH at lighting consoles has told my ears. Bose in its entire existence hasn't come out with a product small or large that has won the respect of the pro audio world or stood the test of time. If it weren't for churches and fundamentally uneducated would-be audiophiles the Bose ship woulda sunk long ago so please forgive my blunt skepticism that this new offering is the "Holy Grail". I'd bet the majority of people buying this new (or for that matter any) Bose wizardry have very little experience with pro audio gear to compare to so the Bose would sound great. The one thing Bose has done a consistently great job with is advertising....
http://www.acousticfingerstyle.com/gimages/Bose/pas_300x332.gif

R. Kane

Sep-11-2009, 11:30am

Our 5 piece bluegrass band is trying to learn to work one L1/2 bass modules, working around 2 condenser microphones (one at head height, the other at guitar height). The mics are sensitive, and like the OP, we have to keep the tower and bass modules out in front. Its a little hard to hear ourselves through the system, but that is supposedly why we gather around the mics. We're new at it, but it works out ok most of the time. The key seems to be the choreography: not everyone remembers to step back, after their solo/vocal, which throws the balance off. The other problem comes when the mic'd bass player steps up to sing. That's when the squealing starts. We're trying to isolate his frequencies.

Shelby Eicher

Sep-11-2009, 12:09pm

Joe,
You have some misinformation. The EAW JF100 are 39 lbs each. It has a 10'' speaker and a wave coil. They are very compact. They actually are smaller than the Bose system, they take less time to set up and are adiophile. I have been at this for nearly 40 years. I am looking for something that sounds great and is easy to setup and operate. I have my whloe system loaded out of my van and ready to go in 15 minutes. That's speakers, head, stands, mics, cables, reverb. The limited EQ with the Bose product makes it usefulness to me quite limiting. The sub woofer makes an unnatural poofeyness(technical term). Certainly if I had a gig I could use it, get my money and go home. When I face 240 gigs a year, I want something more. I wish I could have read this information years ago. It would have saved me a lot of money and heartache. We learn, we grow.
Shelby

foldedpath

Sep-11-2009, 1:05pm

Well, here's another $.02 opinion. I've now heard a couple of Bose PAS systems, although it was solo performer with one tower, not full band reinforcement, and I haven't had a chance to use the system myself. Take it with a grain of salt, and I'm talking about band reinforcement here, not using it for a solo performer gig where I think the system can shine.

The Bose system is o.k. if you aren't able to get to pro audio status (money or financial) and it sounds like it in my opinion. I say all of this not to offend but to educate. I have been amplifing acoustic instruments for 30 years and it is one of the most difficult challenges to be mastered. I wish everyone the best in this endeavor.

Speaking of financial means... If you're going to buy two Bose L-II's with subs as minimal coverage for a band, that's something like a $5,000 system without including the cost of a mixer. You can buy some serious compact PA gear that doesn't weigh any more than the Bose for that kind of dough. People often assume that better gear is heavier, but that's no longer the case with modern amp and cabinet designs. It takes some research and self-education to know what the options are, and what the trade-offs are.

I think Jim's main objective is to have a good sounding system that is portable and quick to set up. ( as stated he has a bigger system if need) The EAW JFL 100s you mentioned are 50 pounds apiece. Hardly portable or easy to setup with cables and board. Don't get me wrong I like heavy duty when you don't have to move it but for playing for smaller to mid size venues IMHO I'll take light every time.

Me too, especially as I get older. I recently downsized my old PA gear, based around a pair of original series (52 lb.) Mackie SRM450 powered speakers. I just didn't want to lift them anymore.

I briefly considered a pair of the Bose L-II's with subs for the ITM trio and also for the 4-piece string band I play in. When researching opinions online from actual users of the system, I kept running into the same comment Jim made about feedback issues... especially on small stages where you can't have optimum placement, and if you have a lot of open mic channels. Our string band now has up to 6 open mic channels, mostly condenser mics. There can be up to 8 mics active if there are guests. If you're forced to place the towers out in front of the band to control feedback, it sort of begs the question of why you're using this instead of a conventional system.

I'm also reluctant to combine the traditional mains + monitor functions the way the Bose system does. There's a great deal of flexibility in being able to run mains and monitors at separate levels, and also the ability to EQ the monitors separately from the mains for feedback control. Yes, it's more stuff to set up, but with the PAS you have no separate control; you're monitoring off the main output of the PA. It's great when it works, not so great if you can't control feedback in difficult rooms (and sometimes it seems like they're all difficult, in different ways).

Concerning weight: My current downsized system is based on a pair of QSC K10 bi-amped cabinets that weigh only 32 lbs. each, including the internal dual 500 watt amps. Monitors are a pair of tiny TC Helicon 150 watt powered boxes that weigh 11 lbs. each, and are either clamped to the speaker stand as side-fill monitors, or down on the floor as mini wedges. So for each side of this PA system, we're talking just 42 lbs. of speakers plus another 6 lbs. for a speaker stand. That's 48 lbs. total including the monitoring function. Compare that to the total assembled weight of a Bose L-II with sub: 82.5 lbs. My system weighs almost half what the Bose towers weigh!

It's not a completely fair comparison because I do need a few more AC and audio cables than I would with a Bose PAS. Still, adding in the weight of cables I think it's still a bit lower in weight per side, and with substantially more SPL power reserve... not that I need it, for the current bands and rooms we play in.

The one thing that makes the Bose system at all attractive to me, is that it's faster to set up and tear down, and overall a more portable system than a conventional PA (excluding entry-level stuff like the Fender Passport). And yes, that's a significant advantage for many of us. A pair of PAS towers would be one or two fewer trips back and forth to the car, but that's mitigated by the fact that in a band you have extra hands available for gear schlepping. Stage setup and tear-down time then becomes the only remaining advantage with the Bose system, and it's just not worth the other compromises. YMMV, as always.

acousticnotes

Sep-11-2009, 1:44pm

Spruce

Sep-11-2009, 2:22pm

Shelby Eicher

Sep-11-2009, 2:27pm

Hey Joe,
The model number is correct but my cabinets look different than the picture listed. I also have a set of JF60 that I use for small venues and those are 17lbs each. I have one gig that has the JF80s installed. I've never weighed my speaks but they could be in the 50 range. They are rather compact so they are easy to handle. I've worked with the Bose system on numerous occasions. Although they are not rated as heavy, they are more awkward due to their size and shape. Even at 52lbs that is not extremely heavy. My Fender twin I use to have was 64lbs and a Peavey session 400 is even more than that. All of that aside, I stand corrected.
Thanks,
Shelby

acousticnotes

Sep-11-2009, 2:49pm

No problem Shelby. For the record I'm not a big fan of the Bose system either and like foldedpath I'm using a pair of Mackie SRM450 powered speakers. I also use a Genz Benz Acoustic Pro with an extension cab for a different sound. Not fully in love with either of them and not light to lug around. Being a one man show I usually have no help. I think sound reinforcement is like GAS or MAS. Always searching for the next big thing.

joe

jim_n_virginia

Sep-11-2009, 3:54pm

I don't mean to be a negative voice to all of the wonderful reports on the Bose system

Then why be one if you don't mean to be??? :))

Shelby I play in a 6 member bluegrass band with 3 vocals and 6 instruments and only one of the instruments plug in (the upright bass).

I can have us set up and sounding good and ready to play and you'll still be unraveling cords and sweating! LOL!

And maybe I don't have 30 years experience doing sound but I know what sounds good. And you don't have to take my word for it there are plenty of reviews online and the consensus seems to be overwhelmingly good.

Are they ALL neophytes? :grin:

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar+Amp/product/Bose/L1+Cylindrical+Radiator/10/1

And I can pack my equipment in the back cargo area of my SUV (which is the main reason I got it) without folding the back seats down, I'd like to see anyone who uses a conventional PA system do that!

We can play to audiences of 150+ easily and if the audience is bigger than that then it is usually a festival or something and they supply the sound most of the time anyways.

I have a reg PA system that I consider pro equipment or pro enough for me (JBL, Mackie) and it is now gathering dust!

But IF I ever need it I'll have it but I don't anticipate using it much. :mandosmiley:

Spruce

Sep-11-2009, 3:59pm

You win....

Joe Hinkebein

Sep-11-2009, 6:34pm

Then why be one if you don't mean to be??? :))

Shelby I play in a 6 member bluegrass band with 3 vocals and 6 instruments and only one of the instruments plug in (the upright bass).

I can have us set up and sounding good and ready to play and you'll still be unraveling cords and sweating! LOL!

And maybe I don't have 30 years experience doing sound but I know what sounds good. And you don't have to take my word for it there are plenty of reviews online and the consensus seems to be overwhelmingly good.

Are they ALL neophytes? :grin:

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar+Amp/product/Bose/L1+Cylindrical+Radiator/10/1

And I can pack my equipment in the back cargo area of my SUV (which is the main reason I got it) without folding the back seats down, I'd like to see anyone who uses a conventional PA system do that!

We can play to audiences of 150+ easily and if the audience is bigger than that then it is usually a festival or something and they supply the sound most of the time anyways.

I have a reg PA system that I consider pro equipment or pro enough for me (JBL, Mackie) and it is now gathering dust!

But IF I ever need it I'll have it but I don't anticipate using it much. :mandosmiley:

Well put Jim. When I made the purchase of the Bose L1 M2, it was with the understanding that I would be using it for relatively smaller gigs, with a small ensemble. It seems like a perfect tool for that application. For other applications/situations, it might not be the right tool. It is not unlike having one vehicle to tow with, and another to get me around town efficiently. Like you, when I have been asked to play at larger venues, the sound has usually been provided. On the other hand, if someone wants to hire me to provide some background music for a reception, the Bose seems like the perfect tool.

Sure Bose is a master of marketing, but so is Toyota and Honda. I did extensive research before making the purchase. I also have played numerous gigs with professional conventional systems and "professional sound personnel" only to find that I could not hear and the audience later said the sound sucked. Using the right tool for the right situation, and knowing how to use the tool effectively, seems to be the bottom line to me. People can disagree or have their preferences (some people like Gibson Dreadnaughts, some people like Martin's). Viva la difference!

Willie

Sep-11-2009, 9:12pm

One more thing I would like to throw in at this time...My band played a nice festival and the sound system they were using wasn`t up to what I like and I told them so, and they said if I didn`t care for it I and if I could furnish something better to do it so I unloaded the Bose L-1 with the bass box and set it up and I got all kinds of raves from the audience and people were wondering how such a sound could come out of the "7 ft pole"...I also use monitors with the ststem the way I set it up, at first I didn`t and we didn`t have any trouble hearing the speakers from the back but I can control the monitors more easily with this set up...some of you that say you didn`t like it might just have to play around with it for a while to get everything right, I love it and wouldn`t have anything else...Also I play many, many gigs a month and it has held up perfectly....Willie

Willie

Sep-11-2009, 9:17pm

By The Way...I bought my L-1 at a Bose outlet store in Orlando Fla. after hearing one a show while we were touring the festival scene in Fla...and It didn`t cost any where near what the list price was...I got the complete outfit for $1600 and they shipped it to my home here in Maryland free of charge, I sold my old sound system for $1000 so I`m happy as a pig in slop....Willie

jim_n_virginia

Sep-11-2009, 11:20pm

You win....

I always do! :grin:

jim_n_virginia

Sep-11-2009, 11:24pm

...I got the complete outfit for $1600

We got our two brand new for $1700.00 each and shipping was free. I've got almost double that in my big PA system.

:mandosmiley:

foldedpath

Sep-11-2009, 11:38pm

We got our two brand new for $1700.00 each and shipping was free. I've got almost double that in my big PA system.

:mandosmiley:

Sure, big PA systems cost serious money, but how many of y'all have researched what you can buy in a modern small, lightweight PA system for that same $3,400? That's the real question here. Or at least one of the questions.

I spent half that amount for my two QSC K10 powered cabs plus TC Helicon monitors, and the system weighs half as much as two PAS systems (with the disclaimers about cabling weight mentioned in the prior post).

Sometimes I get the impression that people think there isn't anything out there except entry-level stuff like Fender Passport, or else traditional and very heavy PA gear. But we're not living in the last century of amp and cabinet designs. There's a bunch of new, very lightweight PA gear out there now that doesn't cost a fortune, and sounds very good (IMO).

Shelby Eicher

Sep-11-2009, 11:57pm

Jim,
I hope I did not offend you. I have a small system only and I carry it in the back of van every day. It sets up in 15 minutes and is audiophile. I set my whole system up by myself in 15 minutes. Sure we can read a bunch of reviews that say that the Bose system is great. We can also read a bunch of reviews that say an Eastman or a Michael Kelley is great. Do they compare with a Master Model or a Gilchrist. I guess that answer is in the ear of the beholder. The Bose system would not be a product that I would spend my money on. That's just me. I have had first hand expireince with the Bose product and I found that it had several short comings. My opinion I hope does not make you feel that I am putting you down. If the Bose system works for you that is great. For all of the people wondering where they should spend their money to amplify their acoustic instruments, now they have heard another opinion that may help them make an educated decision. I love this forum. It is a great learning resource. I wish you the best of luck.
Thanks,
Shelby

jim_n_virginia

Sep-12-2009, 7:40am

For all of the people wondering where they should spend their money to amplify their acoustic instruments, now they have heard another opinion that may help them make an educated decision. Thanks,
Shelby

Shelby I am not offended! I've been on here a long time and I love discussion on all things pertaining to the mandolin and all the equipment we use.

But I feel compelled to reply because I believe that because of your past prejudices with Bose it may actually cause someone to make an "uneducated" decision.

You say you have first hand experience. Did you take Bose's offer to try out a system for 45 days free? Or did you test out a system in Guitar Center? Or perhaps a friend had one and you got to test it out for a few hours? Maybe someone had one on a gig and couldn't get it adjusted right and you were there?

What model did you try? Did you know Bose has three model out? The Classic, L1 model I, L1 model II w/ToneMatch.

If you tried an earlier model it is vastly different from the model II with the new ToneMatch even the array itself is wider. Each successive model was improved upon with consumer suggestions culminating with the new ToneMatch with addressed the biggest complaint consumers had which was no reverb.

And while the Bose PAS system is very simple to set up (3 pieces snap together) it does take a little while to understand as each band or solo performance sets up a little different. Thats why there are useful tools like the Sketcher on the Bose PAS Forum that help the user.

What presets did you use for your mics? your instruments? I have found that finding the right preset can have a HUGE difference not only in sound but how much gain you can get before getting feedback.

If you did not study how the presets work you would have missed what the heart of the Bose PAS system is.

You say you can set up in 15 minutes. That's pretty fast. That's faster than anybody I have even seen. LOL! It's takes me 15 minutes just to get everything out of my truck and on the stage. You must be a blur! :))

I would suggest anyone who is truely interested in the Bose PAS system to not just read a few posts to make their decision but read reviews AND experiences from actual users who use the system every day and YES some are even seasoned professionals.

I recommend going to the Bose PAS Forum and read how bands and performers are using their systems in real life situations. The successes, the problems and the solutions. There are tools to use, tutorials and clips to watch.

http://bose.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x

And no I never said this system is for every application. It is just one tool in the tool box. :mandosmiley:

TonyP

Sep-12-2009, 10:24am

I'm with you Jim, whatever works. I too am happy with what I've put together. I know other bands that just look at my stuff and shake their head. I do that with their stuff too. I don't find the size and complication of my system a drawback as it's more flexible than something simpler. I can be up and running in about 35min if I have to. But I'd rather have at least 45min. And I've quit over functioning and have the other guys double team the 450's up on the stands. Same with teardown. I load and unload by myself and everything fits in the back of my little pickup. Just point this out as there's more than one way to skin that rascal.

And just for the record, my buddy who is pro soundman and now does bookings of huge acts for the major casino he works for. And in 99% of the "riders"(contracts) there are the provisions NO Mackie, Bose or Peavey equipment. So my beloved 450's,150's and most of the rest of my equipment is not "certified". whatchagonnado?

Willie

Sep-12-2009, 10:49am

Jim...I think this calls for a head to head demo of the two systems set up on a stage and each one gets its turn and letting an audience say which is the best sounding....In past years I have tried many systems, some big name and some light weight and to me this Bose isn`t heavy at all and I am an old man but still load it and unload it and set it up by myself in about 15 minutes, I do have the help of band members when setting it up when they are there before I am....Like I said earlier I use a mixer also so that does take a few extra minutes to get the EQ the way I like it...I like to use the mixer to set each mic to the sound that I like also.....I am sure there some other nice outfits out there and like Shelby says What ever suits your needs and fancy is what you should use...I love my Bose ....Willie

acousticnotes

Sep-12-2009, 1:05pm

Tim2723

Sep-12-2009, 1:12pm

Tony, just out of curiousity, do those performers put these clauses in because they have such terrible dislike for certain brands, or could it be because of other reasons such as conflict of interest with endorsment contracts? I could see a group being promoted by Brand X not wanting to be seen using Brand Z, but I have a hard time believing that even the most famous performers would turn down a major venue because there was a Peavey power amp somewhere in the house system.

If that's the case, tell your friend to call me. I'm not that picky and need the work.

TonyP

Sep-12-2009, 1:56pm

I absolutely agree Joe. The old nut behind the wheel thing. And just to clarify, these are not my contracts, these are pro riders that my buddy tells me about. He can't believe we'd ever take a gig without a contract, and I have to tell him, if that was the deal, we'd never work. My dislike of JBL goes back to my old audiophile days and it probably has nothing to do with what is on the street right now.

Tim, I really have no idea. This goes in that category of only pink M&M's backstage thing. I've used a lot of stuff except the new Bose towers. And for the most part got through the gig. The only time I had to give up and go back to my system was when I tried to use the waaaaay expensive built in Bose system that was in the "promo stage" we did at the casino my buddy works at. It's not the tower sys, it's some kind of compact line array system with a huge rack that went with it. My front end went into the Bose. Not only sounded horrible, but could not get any descent volume before feedback. Plugged in the 450's and we were in business.

To be fair though, the "powers that be" in the casino are morons. The system was suspended above the stage, and they decided they wanted to help hide it from the audience, so hung a curtain of like little colored balls on strings. Turns out it wasn't just refracting the sound, it was blocking it. These same powers were wanting to sue the co that installed the system, saying it was faulty, and when my buddy went in with a lift, and taped the curtains away from the speakers. They stayed like that until the powers could come by and hear it, and the response was to drop the suit, but said under NO circumstances were the curtains to be taken down be modified, and were to be put back to their original position. Go figgur.

jim_n_virginia

Sep-13-2009, 9:12pm

Wow I have Mackie, JBL AND Bose PAS I guess all my equipment is junk!

I have seen the light because of a couple of posts and tomorrow morning I will set all my equipment out for the trash .... NOT! :))

Ben Milne

Sep-13-2009, 10:34pm

allenhopkins

Sep-13-2009, 11:38pm

I've been using the Fishman SoloAmp, which is their "answer" to the smaller Bose system, for several months for solo, duet and trio work, and have been very pleased with it. However, I have also had good results, before acquiring the Fishman, from my little Fender Passport.

Ears are different, and there are pluses and minuses to all these systems. This thread is tending toward "cheerleading" vs. "analysis," IMHO. I have attended concerts where the Bose column seemed extremely accurate, with good dispersion of a very natural sound. I have been at others where it had feedback problems, and was less satisfactory. In each case it was being run by a pro sound tech with experience in its operation, not by the performers themselves. So possibly one size won't fit all.

TonyP

Sep-14-2009, 7:53am

I really don't see how you can be sure how you can tell cheerleading and analysis Allen. Like you point out, we all have different ears, which is to say, goals in all of our equipment. And that goes for our instruments too. I think we buy what fits us, and because it fits us, we can make it work and sound good to us.

I decided from the get go I didn't have the cash or expertise to field different systems. So I made my equipment do it all, from a small coffee house, to huge outdoors. Yeah, it gets tight with 4 guys, 3 of which play instruments that take up a lot of room. Thankfully we don't have to deal with drums. I've made the rest of the gear have as small a foot print as possible, and be as convenient as possible with just enough gear to get the job done. And THE most valuable piece of gear that makes the whole thing possible is a piece of outboard gear that is neither mic, mixer, amp or speaker, and is only one rack space. It's my secret weapon, as it is so many pro's. Without that in the signal chain it's just like Tim's "tune it or die", the difference between ecstasy and hell on stage.

Early on when it was an open discussion about the PAS, my 2c was that it didn't appeal to me because I knew it was hype that you could have the system behind you, with condenser mics like we use, and not have feedback. It's just plain 'ol physics, no gettin' around it. So in looking closer I could see Bose had done like they have in the past, a speaker design that was robust, but lacking in natural full range capability. So they added processors, like they have always done, to compensate. To some that's no bueno, to some, it's no biggy. As time went on this was evident as there were a lot of folks on here had real time experience and they for the most part loved it. So the OP's "job" was to report on how it was holding up for those that were interested. And I think he's done a good job as he's used it a lot, been in a lot of different situations with it, and has a similar band situation as a lot of us do. It's why I decided to just observe and not kibitz, as it seemed the time for that was in much earlier threads. Just one guy's observation.

jim_n_virginia

Sep-14-2009, 8:32am

This thread is tending toward "cheerleading" vs. "analysis," IMHO.

HEY! Anybody seen my Pom Poms??? :))

foldedpath

Sep-14-2009, 9:40am

I really don't see how you can be sure how you can tell cheerleading and analysis Allen.

I think Jim's report on his system has been very useful to a lot of folks here, but there has been some hyperbole along the way:

But I have to admit where this system really shines is indoors in a medium to small auditorium. No PA system can compare the sound is just so clean and crisp and so natural sounding.

Comments like "No PA system can compare" is one reason I stayed away from the Bose forums after getting the basic technical and setup info, when I was researching the system a while back. Very high cheerleader to analysis ratio. It's the opposite on forums like ProSoundWeb (sound reinforcement sub-forum), where you have to apply a different filter for those who bash the product just because it has the name Bose on it.

And THE most valuable piece of gear that makes the whole thing possible is a piece of outboard gear that is neither mic, mixer, amp or speaker, and is only one rack space. It's my secret weapon, as it is so many pro's. Without that in the signal chain it's just like Tim's "tune it or die", the difference between ecstasy and hell on stage.

Driverack, Sabine or other feedback killer?

Beanzy

Sep-14-2009, 11:31am

I reckon Jim-n-virgingia has summed up his reasons for liking this system really well. It means he's playing the music rather than humping the kit. I bet he picks up the mandolin with fresher arms than if he was using the bigger kit.

I don't know if it'll help but for reinforcing acoustic sound I've found really simple solution, which can be sized up by just feeding more active speakers from groups, is to use active studio monitors (buy flight cases though). I used the Mackie HR824MKII fed by a Mackie CF12 Mk2. The sound is class in a live gig, and using a simple loom to a central cluster of mics it's a breeze to set up for a session type group. I took a bit of an unorthodox route to killing the feedback by using cheap & cheery AKG C1000s with the hypercardoid capsules in. They take a bashing and can be replaced when some wazz drops them too often. They really kill the feedback issue local to the players. Also as the active speakers aren't all on top of the players but distributed wider they and the audience are hearing what they're playing without being swamped by the sheer volume of sound from a single source.

I know the Bose would save about 10 mins on the set up but this one can size up so easily and the sound is way nicer & more even than just giving it more watts form a single source.

Keep the reports coming jim as the system seems to really work the way you need it.

foldedpath

Sep-14-2009, 1:42pm

Beanzy, I like the idea of using good reference monitors like those Mackie HR824's for the size and audio quality, but for some situations I'd be worried about the dispersion pattern; how well it can cover an audience.

Nearfield reference monitors are designed to fire forward and converge on a sweet spot listening position a few feet away. Mackie doesn't even bother listing dispersion pattern (nobody else making monitors like this does either), because it doesn't matter for the application. When I walk sideways away from the sweet spot for my nearfield monitors in my home studio, the volume falls off fairly quickly.

Compression driver/horn systems on PA speakers may look ugly, and they usually don't sound as good as the type of mid-high driver in a recording studio monitor, but one thing they do very well is control sound dispersion to cover the audience. For example, one of Mackie's popular powered PA speakers (SRM450) is spec'd at 90 degrees coverage horizontal and 45 degrees vertical. There's a little fall-off at the edges, but that's the "useful" range. A coverage pattern like that helps prevent a situation where some in the audience are getting blasted, while others aren't hearing enough volume. It's especially important when playing outdoors where you don't have nearby walls to reflect sound. I don't think Bose lists a coverage spec for their PAS system, but I gather that it's intended to be very wide if not almost omnidirectional.

Adding more active studio monitors to get smoother horizontal coverage might work, but it might also lead to some phase cancellation problems. Anyway, this may not matter if the recording monitors are used in a venue where you don't need the wider coverage. I just thought I'd mention it as a another of those "one size may not fit all" considerations when we compare PA systems. Where it does work, I'll bet it sounds very good. I'm not a big fan of horn-loaded speakers, and only use 'em for the spread.

jim_n_virginia

Sep-14-2009, 1:58pm

I

Comments like "No PA system can compare" is one reason I stayed away from the Bose forums after getting the basic technical and setup info, when I was researching the system a while back. Very high cheerleader to analysis ratio.

Poor choice of words on my account I appologize I KNOW that there are other options for sound reinforcement that is just as good or better than what I am using I think I just get a little carried away sometimes when I like something! LOL! :mandosmiley:

acousticnotes

Sep-14-2009, 2:17pm

Poor choice of words on my account I appologize I KNOW that there are other options for sound reinforcement that is just as good or better than what I am using I think I just get a little carried away sometimes when I like something! LOL! :mandosmiley:

Hell it's nice to be happy when you spent good money on equipment that works for you. No need to apologize as far as I'm concerned. I can't tell you how much "stuff" I bought in the past that's sitting in the basement because it sucks. If more people would do reviews and give there real world opinions on gear it gives others a chance to make an educated decision before they buy. I commend you for it. Thanks Jim.

Joe

Beanzy

Sep-14-2009, 3:43pm

Hi foldedpath, I know about the dispersal, infact the origins of my original ideas came from that, that's why it's a different approach. The dispersion isn't done like you're used to, I do it by planting the speakers throughout the venue and running small wattage like these. You're also no trying to defeat the sheer mass of bodies & ambient noise with volume. I originally used a simpler version of this for comedy club nights in noisy restauraunts and pubs as you can go around corners & the like without having to crank up the overall level, these were voice with some acts using instruments too. Most small acoustic gigs in pubs and clubs can be covered with 4 (or bigger 6) of these monitors (rent the extras as they're not cheap). But you end up with a much more intimate sound of higher quality. Most places are fairly simple as they tend to be hall shapes, but you've got to plan it more if the venue's a complex shape, as the reflections and reverb of the venue will have an effect. However another advantage here is the lower local volume means faster decay times for those reflections hence the more intimate and cleaner sound (& less feedback too). By using the group outs of the mixer you can tune the volume for different parts of the venue....... if you've got the luxury of a decent sound check. Even if you don't the basic control is really helpful in setting up cleanly & quickly.

I suppose I'm trying to preserve more of the acoustic feel and just reinforce the sound rather than go full on volume.

foldedpath

Sep-14-2009, 10:05pm

Beanzy, that's a neat idea (distributing satellite speakers through the venue). How do you handle the cabling? Do you just show up early enough to run cables where you need them throughout the area?

TonyP

Sep-15-2009, 9:06am

SteveV has done the studio monitors in a coffee house setup(just one set in a traditional PA array) with great effect. He used Alesis, and I don't doubt my Hafler's couldn't do a great job in a similar setup. For me, it's that I don't have mounts for them to go on stands and just plain ol' don't want to subject my babies to the abuse of the road when I have speakers already that are made for the job, and do a good job. Then there's also having to get used to a whole 'nuther kettle of fish in sorting it out.....maybe when I get bored. :)

My whole aim is to reinforce the acoustic sound, not bludgeon. And while the multi setup sounds like a good idea(and we used one once, that was a house system), to really do it right you need something like the Driverack and it's multi outs and delays to do it right. I personally subscribe to the idea that the band is where all the sound is originally coming from, and so you align to that. Without time aligned delays of the multi setup, you are actually doing more damage to that original signal(the band) than good. My 450's set high on the stands, and throttled back for an inside gig(with delay to time align to the band, and the compensation on) don't blow the front row out, and project all the way to back at almost the same volume.

Also the thought of all that cabling, aligning, and the sheer expense of several studio monitors, and trying to get some kind of stand setup defeats the whole original idea Jim was espousing, ease of setup and transport. But to each his own.

Spruce

Sep-15-2009, 9:26am

Also the thought of all that cabling, aligning, and the sheer expense of several studio monitors, and trying to get some kind of stand setup defeats the whole original idea Jim was espousing, ease of setup and transport.

Hey, just get a Bose or two (or three or four or...).

Everyone here just loves the way they sound... :grin:

Tim2723

Sep-15-2009, 9:29am

We used a similar concept for one venue we played every weekend for ten years. It was a complicated series of rooms and we mounted speakers on wall brackets with the wiring above the drop ceiling (this was a semi-permanent install in a long-term venue though). It worked very well, but it's not something I would want to carry on my back to one-nighters.

steve V. johnson

Sep-15-2009, 10:39am

OK, so I 'heard' my name...

Tony sez, "SteveV has done the studio monitors in a coffee house setup(just one set in a traditional PA array) with great effect. He used Alesis, and I don't doubt my Hafler's couldn't do a great job in a similar setup. For me, it's that I don't have mounts for them to go on stands and just plain ol' don't want to subject my babies to the abuse of the road when I have speakers already that are made for the job, and do a good job."

Yeah, I bought a pair of Alesis 520 active studio monitors just for doing smaller gigs. We often pair them with a tiny, 4-mic input Behringer mixer
(yeah, I had to get over my Behr' prejudice, but it has done well), with guitar, dobro and mandolin going direct from pickups and two to four vocals, usually on Beyer M500 mics. My bass thru an SWR Workingman's 10 seems to need no help, so it does not go thru the PA. For the Irish bands we mic up to six instruments and vocals, no DIs. When we have more players we use either my Mackie 1604vlzPro, or some other mixer with more mic inputs.

We generally run essentially mono (no panning) and rarely use any other outboard gear. Once when we gigged with a couple of storytellers, I used a graphic EQ which I switched in for the storytellers and back out for the music, mainly to use as high-pass and low-pass filtering, a habit of mine for speakers. Sometimes we'll use a reverb/delay box for singers, but I usually set the system completely flat and dry.

The Alesis are $200 shipped from Full Compass Systems in Wisconsin, and are readily available from about any audio dealer.

My original affection for active speakers comes from years of messing with trying to match monitor speakers in recording studios (often huge ones, custom built and installed in walls) with power amps for proper (not even optimum!) playback operation. Nightmares. I love the elimination of that set of variables.

Dispersion was a concern for us when we first tried the Alesis, but we've found that coverage of up to about 1500 sq. ft. of restaurant (not bar!), up to 150 people is really good. Since I've had the Alesis I've listened to a number of sets of small, active monitors at about the same price point, and I think that the designers don't put too fine a point on the dispersal design. Which is to say, they're not too concerned with building for a "near-field" sweet spot.

Most of these speakers will go very, very loud and these remain quite cogent at ranges I did not expect. I know that I've heard them throw good detail for 35' down a room. Most of the small active monitors I've looked at have more controls than I care about, for 'tailoring' the output to various room placement strategies. I don't use 'em, I just set 'em for as simply flat as I can get 'em and put tape over the switches.

We plan to add another pair so that we can spread either three or four in the room so that the overall volume can be lower and the coverage and intelligibility remain. With a second pair we could place the 'mains' left/center/right and use one for a monitor, or two for monitors and two for mains, or all four out in the room.

This setup does mean that we carry extra long power cables, and I insist on running all power thru a central conditioner/outlet box, so I carry long AC cables, but this may not be necessary for everyone, it's just my neurosis about power, so a standard IEC cable to a wall outlet (included with the speakers from Alesis) may do for others. We carry them in their shipping box. We'd like to find suitable cases but haven't yet found 'em.

It's handy to carry stands, but not always necessary. So far, it's a good deal easier than humping the Mackie 450s (my other speakers, which I like fine) and larger mixer, as long as we don't need more than a few mic inputs. (I keep looking for the tiny mixer with 8-12 good mic pre's and good eqs, but I haven't found it...) The Alesis, and most other small active monitors don't have pole-mount receptacles, so some other strategy for placement is necessary. Furniture mounting is great if the cabling can be strategized, audiences love it. I know, it's stupid, but they really like hearing everything and not noticing the speakers from whence it comes.

Back to TonyP: "Also the thought of all that cabling, aligning, and the sheer expense of several studio monitors, and trying to get some kind of stand setup defeats the whole original idea Jim was espousing, ease of setup and transport. But to each his own."

We carry extra long AC cables and perhaps speaker stands. With our big system we carry speaker stands and long power cables anyway. So we carry nothing -extra- to use this system, in the aggregate, much less.

Our point was to achieve a small system, smaller than Mackie 1604vlzPro + Mackie SRM450s (tho we use the Alesis 520s as monitors with that system quite successfully), and appropriate to smaller rooms, lower volumes and maintaining intelligibility.

I think that small studio monitors provide a nice alternative to other system configurations, but I won't make "better than..." claims at all. It works very nicely for us in physical terms and has been pretty much stellar at letting folks hear the music in very good, even fine, detail.

I have no objections to Bose PAS systems, nor any of the new line array systems. I've heard 'em (Bose), but not played thru 'em, and I've written about those experiences here before.

I was going to stay out of this thread because of the extant hyperbole, but since my adventures were mentioned I thought I should explain our experiences with the little monitors, just for clarity.

Thanks,

stv

steve V. johnson

Sep-15-2009, 10:43am

p.s. (how could I really write -more- ?!?!?)

I first got the concept of a distributed array of small speakers from watching plays in NYC theatres, and I noticed that there were (at the time) Visonik Little David speakers mounted among the seats and all around the room. There was no sensation of sound coming from any particular speaker, but from the direction of the stage. Nice sleight-of-hand, that was!

Since then I've been noticing other similar installations.

thanks,

stv

mandroid

Sep-15-2009, 12:53pm

I think above a certain length of room, there is a Zone Delay useful to compensate for unwanted echo/reverb .

foldedpath

Sep-15-2009, 2:07pm

This setup does mean that we carry extra long power cables, and I insist on running all power thru a central conditioner/outlet box, so I carry long AC cables, but this may not be necessary for everyone, it's just my neurosis about power, so a standard IEC cable to a wall outlet (included with the speakers from Alesis) may do for others. We carry them in their shipping box. We'd like to find suitable cases but haven't yet found 'em.

I'm neurotic about power too, especially about getting everything on one circuit. I've fried equipment before -- not just ground hum but fried as in "smoke curling out of the box" -- by plugging audio gear into two different circuits where one was wired incorrectly, and then doing an audio interconnect between the two. I think it was a reversed hot and neutral, something like that. So I'll do a basic outlet check with one of those little tester gadgets, and use only that one outlet.

I run ProCo "Siamese Twin" bundled AC and audio cable looms out to the active speakers and our little monitors. Those cables are a little heavy and clunky to manage, but it means I'm only running a single cable for each side of the performing area for the whole hookup, and all AC connections are at a central location by the mixer.

That would be one concern I'd have with the "distributed small active speaker" approach; the potential need to tap into different outlets, or else run a lot of cabling around the room where you might have trip hazards if you don't tape everything down on the floor. People are litigation-happy here in the USA. Running too many cables around the area, especially if we're performing at floor level without a stage with people walking around or dancing nearby, scares me. I carry a roll of gaffer tape in case we have to tape down cables, but I still don't like it.

BTW, I read a thread somewhere about using a wireless setup to get the audio signal to distributed speakers. I think it was a temporary, traveling installation in a retail store environment where they didn't want to run cables. That would also eliminate the ground loop/wiring issues with powering the speakers from different circuits, since there's no direct connection ground. IIRC, it wasn't a complete success due to RF interference, but this was an urban location. It might work in other areas, although it would be an expensive solution and the audio quality would suffer a little with conventional (analog) wireless systems.

I first got the concept of a distributed array of small speakers from watching plays in NYC theatres, and I noticed that there were (at the time) Visonik Little David speakers mounted among the seats and all around the room. There was no sensation of sound coming from any particular speaker, but from the direction of the stage. Nice sleight-of-hand, that was!

Since then I've been noticing other similar installations.

Those are probably time-aligned installations, which gets back to one of Tony's earlier comments about delay lines. Without time-aligned speakers, the PA sound arrives at the audience's ears almost instantly, and the sound from the live band (and other speakers closer to the band) arrives a little later. I think the delay is close to 1ms per foot of distance? Something like that. Beyond some critical distance you start to get nasty phase cancellation and echo effects.

Delay lines can tighten up the sound for all the speakers at different distances from the performing area. They use HUGE delay tower speakers for big outdoor events. The equipment to to this (Driverack etc.) has trickled down in price to where it's available even to smaller bands, but it takes time to set up. I think most people wouldn't want to do it on-the-fly for something like a bar gig, unless it's a regular weekly thing or a semi-permanent installation, where you can lock in the numbers.

The smaller the room, and the more quietly the band plays, the less you'll notice this. And it's not a problem if all your mini speakers are close to the performing area, so maybe it's a moot point for the small distributed speaker setups we're talking about here. It's still something to be aware of, because the effect can sneak up on you. The PA just starts sounding a little "off", and it can be difficult to pin down.

If we get any contra dance gigs this year, I'm thinking of adding my two SRM450's at the back of the room (in addition to the main PA rig) for better coverage. These events are held in big, long rooms to accommodate the line dance, with the band at one end. If I do that, it's enough distance to justify a delay on those rear speakers to tighten up the sound.

TonyP

Sep-15-2009, 2:29pm

I've watched, and heard, first hand what time alignment can do. And mind you, this is not with speakers that are set down the sides of a room. I'm talking a pro rig with stuff flown over the stage, subs on the floor to the outside of the stage, electric band on stage, etc. He was using SmaartLive and a reference mic, set to the middle of the room and started with the instrument the furthest back on the stage. In this case the drums. Then the drums monitor, then the mics on the amps, vocal mics, monitors, flown mains then subs, working towards the listener/reference mic. The band then came out for the soundcheck and real quick, before they started playing, he defeated the different delays(we're talking miliseconds here of delay, and some only having a couple of milliseconds difference than others) and after a little bit, kicked in the delays, it was remarkable. Made a believer out of me. It didn't sound bad undelayed, it sounded fine. Until he kicked 'em back in. It was kinda like someone took off blankets over the speakers or something. Yeah, this was an extreme situation, a BUNCH of different sources, but it made the point to me. If all the sources aren't aligned, you got mud. Probably too tweeky for most, but just a little peek at what the big boys do that we have no idea about. I use a stock 8ms delay on my mains. Seems to do the trick.

steve V. johnson

Sep-15-2009, 9:26pm

Foldedpath... So much fun to read your stuff!

In small rooms, 'distributed array' setups with small active monitors can be placed at the perimeter walls and have the cables run at the baseboards, so well out of the way. I've seen this done in some small rooms and I took some inspiration from it. It's only the traffic crossings that become problematic and there are various covers or rugs than can help.

I'm sure that the NYC theaters that I attended had carefully calibrated delays for the room.

Thanks for the notes on time alignment!!! I never really need to deal with it. Great infos.

Thanks,

stv

jim_n_virginia

Sep-15-2009, 10:42pm

Hey, just get a Bose or two (or three or four or...).

Everyone here just loves the way they sound... :grin:

Spruce if it makes you feel better to mock people awww go ahead! :))

And also this thread was not just hijacked but it was shanghaied to China! :grin:

but thats alright it's been interesting! :mandosmiley:

Tim2723

Sep-15-2009, 10:49pm

I never did get an answer about the fragility of the tower connections. Whatdaya think of those, Jim?

jim_n_virginia

Sep-16-2009, 8:56am

I never did get an answer about the fragility of the tower connections. Whatdaya think of those, Jim?

seems sturdy enough in the base the tower drops into a hole and clcicks in and is locked in tight. It is released with a foot switch so you don't even need to bend over to disconnect to make dissasembly fast and the second top piece has a 4" tail that slides into a channel that adds a lot of stability and it too locks into place and released with a press in swtich. It looks like the stability was given much thought in the design process. Whenn fully assembled the almost 7' tower does now move and inch if you wiggle it.

Now it probably wouldn't hold if you drop kicked it but I don't plan on playing in any C/W or Biker bars! LOL! :))

Beanzy

Sep-16-2009, 9:47am

And also this thread was not just hijacked but it was shanghaied to China! :grin:

but thats alright it's been interesting! :mandosmiley:

Sorry Jim, my bad, and I've only been posing a few days and sent the thread rattling dow a siding already. oops! :grin:

As it's been mentioned about cabling between units; I only use FST as I use balanced line level audio from the mixer to the imputs of the cabs, so the cables are tiny by comparison with something carrying 110v. To eliminate electrical delay all the cables are the same length, as they're small spaghetti this isn't a problem. I've never used it in anywhere bigger than pubs or comedy clubs/halls.

The power issue would matter if you were using driven signals. If you plug in across two phases of a 3 phase system you get 400 volts in the UK and (I think) 240 or 208 volts in the US, so you need to know your on the same circuit.
If you find clicks and pops are problematic there are mains filters you can buy as a plug-in solution. Over here I have some IsoTek NeoPlug GII, but I'm not too fussy and still use some others I bought about 8 years ago.

This all sounds like I've stacks of kit going out to do a wee gig, but it's not there are about 4 to 6 small flight cases and a tin case for the cables and mics, then the mic stands and whatever instrument I'll play if it's something I'm involved in playing in.

Apols again Jim, but I thought I better answer the cable question.

Do the Bose units have any filtering on the mains that you know of? They may have it integrated in the power section.

Spruce

Sep-16-2009, 11:27am

Spruce if it makes you feel better to mock people awww go ahead! :))

Yeah, I tend to do that when folks are so cocksure and unyielding in their opinions about products that I, too, have used extensively and maybe have a different opinion about... :))

I gave the PAS system a good workout in many different venues, with all sorts of bands, mics, and instrumentation, and (unfortunately) will continue to do so in the fore-seeable future.
And, in my opinion, it never fails to underwhelm...

I hear all the time: "Wow, it's amazing that all that sound comes from just that tower," without analyzing the actual quality of the sound which, to my ears, sounds exactly like a bunch of tiny speakers trying to reach some sort of level of effeciency. (Yes, my friends use the bass module, too).

And, as far as portability, a small board and a couple powered speakers fits in the back of my Focus station wagon in the same space that the Bose rides, and sonically kills the Bose in most applications.
This is especially true for an acoustic band using a single condenser mic and no monitors, as I suspect many of you are...

And let's not even talk economics, shall we?? ;)

But what really gets me is the clubby, self-righteous clickishness that seems to follow certain products around, and I would put the Bose PAS system at the head of the class....

If I can encourage one person to think twice before drinking the Bose Koolaid, then cool...

And, most importantly, YMMV.

jim_n_virginia

Sep-16-2009, 12:26pm

If I can encourage one person to think twice before drinking the Bose Koolaid, then cool...

Bose Koolaid ??? You crack me up Spruce! :grin:

jim_n_virginia

Sep-16-2009, 1:08pm

I gave the PAS system a good workout in many different venues,

I'm very sorry Spruce but I just don't believe you... I think you tried someone's system or was somewhere where they had one an didn't have it set up right or couldn't figure it out and now you are basing your biased opinion on that despite thousands of people who have bought systems and have been using them with success.

I know that the Bose PAS system is not the be all end all of sound reinforcement but I am just posting my own personal experience that I can set up and break down at about half the time it takes me with my regular PA system and if it sounds good too (yeah to MY ears I'm the one that has to use it) then all the better.

And you refer to Bose owners as "clubby, self-righteous clickishness" (actually it's cliquishness LOL!) and at the same time insinuate that they are too stupid to know what quality sound sounds like?

But YOU do? :))

the air must get mighty thin way up there!

Maybe one day I will I will learn what a real sound system is like you have but for now I have to use what I got! ;)

acousticnotes

Sep-16-2009, 3:02pm

What sounds good to me may not sound good to you. You say tomato I say to motto:)) No different with mandolins really. I like a more complex sound you may like a drier sound. To each his own. The main thing we can all agree on is dependability.:popcorn:

Joe

Don Grieser

Sep-16-2009, 6:04pm

Spruce's recording/audio credentials are well-known at least to some of us. ~o)

Joe Hinkebein

Sep-16-2009, 7:10pm

But what really gets me is the clubby, self-righteous clickishness that seems to follow certain products around, and I would put the Bose PAS system at the head of the class....

If I can encourage one person to think twice before drinking the Bose Koolaid, then cool...

And, most importantly, YMMV.[/QUOTE]

I have followed this thread closely, and I don't think any supportive reviews of the Bose System can be qualified as persuading the gullible to drink the Bose Kool-Aid.

If an individual looks at his or her options and determines that for THEIR SITUATION the bose is a good fit...why work so hard to dissuade? It begins to sound like a grudge.

If they make an uninformed decision without doing the research and ascertaining whether any given piece of equipment is right for them, well...caveat emptor.

This "either or" way of thinking seems a little ego driven. Makes me wonder why?

If someone has a positive experience with a mandolin, an accessory, a piece of sound equipment...certainly weigh in with contrary opinions, but why attack or diminish the experience or expertise of another poster. A number of the contrarian arguments here have seemed rather snarky to me.

mandroid

Sep-16-2009, 9:32pm

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

jim_n_virginia

Sep-16-2009, 11:25pm

Spruce's recording/audio credentials are well-known at least to some of us. ~o)

OH WOW! I guess your RIGHT having recording/audio credentials known to a few dozen people on a mandolin forum really makes someone an expert on the use of the Bose PAS system.

OK I finally see the error of my ways. I finally realize this system stinks and I am going to dump it off on some unsuspecting poor fool on eBay tommorrow. NOT!!! :grin:

bonny

Sep-17-2009, 7:18am

OH WOW! I guess your RIGHT having recording/audio credentials known to a few dozen people on a mandolin forum really makes someone an expert on the use of the Bose PAS system.

OK I finally see the error of my ways. I finally realize this system stinks and I am going to dump it off on some unsuspecting poor fool on eBay tommorrow. NOT!!! :grin:

You found a system that sounds good to you. That's all the justification for owning it you need.
You don't need to call people liars or incompetent like you've straight up done over and over. It's a plain fact that the majority of pros don't have much use for Bose.....nothing you say is going to change that. Why should you care though?

No one has attacked you with the venom and sarcasm for buying this rig that you've consistently displayed for any non-believers foolish enough to question your taste and judgment. Just stow that dung Jim. I've agreed with you on enough other things in the past that I know you're not a complete idiot. Owning a Bose rig doesn't make you a bad person big feller.;)
Heck, maybe the PAS is the first thing Bose has really gotten right and we'll all be eating crow in a couple of years when it's become the industry standard. :grin:

jim_n_virginia

Sep-17-2009, 9:37am

No one has attacked you with the venom and sarcasm for buying this rig that you've consistently displayed for any non-believers foolish enough to question your taste and judgment. Just stow that dung Jim.

Heck, maybe the PAS is the first thing Bose has really gotten right and we'll all be eating crow in a couple of years when it's become the industry standard. :grin:

Oh so if somone insinutes that Bose owners don't know anything about sound and we're all stupid we are supposed to take it!

I got several PM's and email from Bose owners who are completely happy with their systems and want to say something but just don't want to hassle with the Bose Bashers.

Also in case you have forgotten this is a discussion form where we can discuss anything we like and post our thought as long as they conform to the Cafe guidelines so don't be telling me to "stow that dung" it is not up to you to decide what gets discussed only mods and the owner can do that.

Tim2723

Sep-17-2009, 10:31am

There's an old Irish saying that goes "When you get to drink what's in my glass, you can complain about what's in my glass". Nobody has to own Bose or anything else they don't like, and if some band is playing though one and you don't like it, go listen to another band.

As far as I can tell, Jim hasn't tried to sell anybody a Bose PA. He bought one because he liked it and he told us about his experience. He answered questions to the best of his knowledge and gave his opinion as an opinion. He even used all the right smiley faces. It's the anti-Bose contingent with 'decades of professional experience' that always seems to show up in these threads halfway through to tell everyone that 'real pros' don't use Bose, and frankly that's insulting. Does anyone really think that this forum is populated entirely by teenage hobbyists with no experience in anything?

I enjoyed this thread and got a lot out of it until now. But I'm done with this one. Thanks for taking time out of your life for us, Jim, and I'm sorry it didn't work out better.

MikeEdgerton

Sep-17-2009, 11:28am

Let's all keep it civil and get back on track or simply read more and post less.

Beanzy

Sep-17-2009, 3:38pm

My impression was that Jim wasn't 'selling' the system to people. I though he was highlighting how it fulfilled his needs and made life one heck of a lot easier.
While it's nice to have an acoustically refined set-up like many of us tech geeks aim for, it's often not the most important thing in much live music.

The vibe of the live combined with the effect of the booze on the audience will often add more than a bit more clarity. It's ok if you've got someone to set up the kit for you, but if you're a player, then the setting up is only something you do because you have to, your real job is to play the music and engage the audience. If the set up is simplified and you arrive fresher and less hassled to the playing bit, then surely your gig's already better for the kit you've chosen.

That's how I see the Bose system, it lets you cut to the music in better shape, it simplifies your life removing complexity and effort from the set-up, and it seems to deliver audio which is up to the needs of the average gig. I'd say that's got to count for a heck of a lot in terms of recommendation. I wouldn't buy one, but for all the reasons above I wouldn't knock someone who does.

It's made me keen to go hear some groups here using them as I haven't heard one in about a year & that was the previous version.

goconnorr304

Sep-17-2009, 9:09pm

I can now EQ the system where it is almost impossible to make it feed back. I did have problems on one gig we did because of weird space constraints.

I love the Bose L1 for the reasons Jim-n-Virginia has stated, but I have not been able to achieve the EQ Nirvana of "impossible to feed back." I mic my A-3 with an SM-57, and it's OK, but I definitely have feedback limits on the gain I can reach when performing indoors. Would I do better with a condensor mic (e.g. an SM-81, which we have but have not used for live performance), or would this not matter because it all has to do with mic/speaker position, room shape, etc.? How far from the Bose L1 tower do you stand?

George-n-Boston

foldedpath

Sep-18-2009, 1:30pm

George, that SM-81 has a flatter frequency response and will pick up more detail on your mandolin than the SM-57, but it has the same cardioid pattern as the SM-57: a front lobe picking up sound and a null at the back. If you have too much of the PAS sound coming into that front lobe, it's going to feed back just like the SM-57 at the same stage volume levels.

There are hypercardioid mics with slightly tighter patterns (better side rejection, basically), and that might help a little, although it limits your choices of available mics. Personally I think it's better to just solve the speaker-to-mic placement issues.

You could also try a parametric EQ or auto feedback-killer to cut the main feedback frequencies, but I think that works best as a final tweak or emergency measure if you have everything else set up to minimize feedback. If you try this to fix a situation where the speaker is just too close to the mic's pickup pattern, you run the risk of hacking up the sound with too many filters.

fredfrank

Sep-18-2009, 2:15pm

I'm not sure if my post will help anyone's point of view with regards to this discussion, but what the heck!

I bought one of these to use with our bluegrass band and it wasn't long before I figured out I'd need at least two of them. Bose recommends one for each musician! $$$$ We have five musicians in the band, and I could only spring for two of the towers with bass modules.

When we used the standard sm58's and 57's run through a mixer and feeding into the towers it worked pretty well set up behind us. I liked the ability to hear exactly what the audience was hearing. But the problem came when the bar crowd, and even the owner said: "Turn it up!" Our band uses seven mics - three vocals and four instruments - that gave us so much more potential for feedback, and that's exactly what we got.

After playing a few gigs using one or two large diaphragm mics, we decided that we'd like to use that method more often. Problem is, the Bose was even more prone to feedback with large diaphragm mics.

My solution to gaining more volume while eliminating feedback, was to move the towers off to the side and on the same line as the mics. More like a normal PA setup. So much for the monitoring effect we had enjoyed before. After a few gigs like that, the group wanted to look into the in-ear monitors. I figured if we were going to run the Bose like a conventional PA, there was no reason to have that much money tied up in it. So off the the auction site it went.

After that experience, my view is that as long as you don't need to play at high volumes, this works pretty well. But the harder you push it, the more it acts like a normal PA.

goconnorr304

Sep-18-2009, 7:33pm

Fred and "Foldedpath," Thanks for your helpful replies. Your experience confirms mine, Fred: the laws of physics being what they are, I guess one can't have a feedback-free system at high gain with a mic positioned in front of the speaker, even with a radiant sound tower. At least not indoors. Outdoors I can place the L1 tower 10 feet behind my mic stand and crank it up good and loud without feeding back. (Of course, I'm talking good and loud for a neighborhood block party, not for Telluride.) For indoor gigs using microphones, small-to-medium-sized venues and low-to-moderate volumes are perhaps the best application for the L1 (which is really just as marketed, I guess). For these situations, which are my band's usual scenario, we enjoy the L1 quite a bit.

-G

foldedpath

Sep-18-2009, 8:20pm

Your experience confirms mine, Fred: the laws of physics being what they are, I guess one can't have a feedback-free system at high gain with a mic positioned in front of the speaker, even with a radiant sound tower. At least not indoors. Outdoors I can place the L1 tower 10 feet behind my mic stand and crank it up good and loud without feeding back. (Of course, I'm talking good and loud for a neighborhood block party, not for Telluride.)

For what it's worth, and I'm no expert on the Bose system... it seems to me that when the PAS system does work with the towers behind the performer, it's at least partly because the musician's own body acts as a "gobo" or shield, so the mic doesn't point directly at the tower. At least for bands like rock or bluegrass, where the convention is to play standing up. Feedback can still happen with reflections down off a low ceiling (I hate low ceilings), or close side walls.

Playing outdoors is a whole different situation. It's always easier to control feedback outdoors because the sound doesn't reflect on any nearby surfaces. I like playing outdoor gigs, except it always seems like I need five times the output power because open space is such a "power soak" for a PA system.

jim_n_virginia

Sep-18-2009, 8:59pm

But the problem came when the bar crowd, and even the owner said: "Turn it up!" Our band uses seven mics - three vocals and four instruments - that gave us so much more potential for feedback, and that's exactly what we got.

After playing a few gigs using one or two large diaphragm mics, we decided that we'd like to use that method more often. Problem is, the Bose was even more prone to feedback with large diaphragm mics.

My solution to gaining more volume while eliminating feedback, was to move the towers off to the side and on the same line as the mics. More like a normal PA setup. .

Fred Bose recommends putting the L1's in front of you if you are using cond. mics. for trad. Bluegrass one mic set up. If you put them off to the side or worse behind you it will reflect back to the mic causing feedback.

We eliminated this by putting the L1's forward and tilting them out just a tad bit. We use 2 cond mics and we turn those in a little.

Also I found that when I played with different mic presets I could even get more gain and as a result more volume. Once I found the right ones that worked best with our mics (AT-4033) I just leave it and so far it has worked best at every kind of gig, indoors, outdoors whatever and so far we have had no requests to "turn it up!"

I leave every setting the same and all I have to do is adjust trim for the 2 mics and thats it.

We have a gig tomorrow night on a patio at a coffee house and I like doing shows like this because it is in these kinds of environments the Bose really shines.

The problem with playing in bars is that the owners and patron are accustomed to have their music blasted in the ears. Combine this with drinking and this is where you will have requests to turn it up.

If a band plays a lot of noisy bars and clubs them maybe the Bose is not the right tool for the job. Different jobs require different tools and it is precisly this reason WHY I haven't sold my PA system yet. When I think I need it, I use it.

steve V. johnson

Sep-18-2009, 9:04pm

All this stuff about dynamic and condensor mics has been documented on the Bose site since the introduction of the PAS system.

For a long time the Bose engineers didn't publish their tests with condensor mics and recommended against their use. Eventually they realized that folks are going to do what they're going to do and published their results with condensors, but still with 'boiler plate' disclaimers and warnings to try and keep their sterns outta the wind.

I imagine, as with many products, that a certain number of folks who bought the systems didn't read the documentation and the evolution of the mic tests, and went ahead improvised and treated the systems like they'd always treated PA gear and still complained to Bose when they had less-than-ideal results.

Pretty interesting reading.

"... a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." -- Paul Simon.

stv

jim_n_virginia

Sep-19-2009, 7:55am

All this stuff about dynamic and condensor mics has been documented on the Bose site since the introduction of the PAS system.
stv

Yes it is true that when they first came out Bose did not intend to use cond. mics with the PAS system but a number musicians soon found out you could make it work and as a result Bose brought in a number of Bluegrass bands into their testing facility to experiment with the set up.

Here is one of the encounters from 2005

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8146026354/m/7501028281

Perry

Sep-19-2009, 8:42am

Being interested in these things I read through that "bluegrass one mic set-up thread" on the Bose site about a year ago...I seem to remember that the overall consensus was that all sorts of concessions had to be made to make the Bose PAS work with a single condensor mic set-up...that was back then maybe there's been some more tips posted since then.

Currently we use a KSM-27, (2) Mackis 450's, no monitors and a feedback buster. It is very small and sets up in minutes. Instead of a board we use a Pendulum SPS-1 pre-amp that's rackmounted with a feedback buster in a short 2 space rack.

acousticnotes

Sep-19-2009, 10:13am

jim_n_virginia

Sep-19-2009, 9:50pm

...I seem to remember that the overall consensus was that all sorts of concessions had to be made to make the Bose PAS work with a single condensor mic set-up...that was back then maybe there's been some more tips posted since then.
.

Hmmm thats weird ... we did a gig tonight at a eatery in Va. Beach and we did not have to make ANY consessions. And because it was a an intimate place with a small area for the band we only used one system and used one AT-4033 condensor mic and one Shure SM-57 instrument mic and it performed FLAWLESSLY.

We walked in, took like 7 minutes to set up the L1 and one bass module and hooked up two mics. Maybe another 5 minutes to do a sound check. Sound check was a breeze because I have found the #20 preset works best for our mics so those are already set just had to dial in trim and thats was it!

We sang around the cond. mic and took breaks in the instrument mic. We were close so we could hear each other easily.

Oh yeah we got several compliments on the sound after we finished.

I don't think I have ever remembered a member of the audience coming up to me after a gig and complimenting our sound when I use my reg. PA.

They might compliment the band's sound or whatever but no one has noticed how good the sound system sounds ... until we bought these two Bose systems! :mandosmiley:

sgarrity

Sep-19-2009, 9:56pm

I picked with Jim tonight and listened to the trio when I was taking a break and having a beer. And it all sounded GOOD!

Perry

Sep-20-2009, 7:41am

How many people in your band Perry? I'm wondering how you would hook up the Pendulum with it's two independent channels for more than two players with out some kind of board?

Joe

5 people but four instruments; guitar, mandolin, bass (he brings an amp) and harmonica. We use just one channel on the Pendulum for just the one mic (KSM-27) to capture the the entire band including some of the bass amp. BTW the Pendulum's parametric EQ comes in very handy for tweaking.

jim_n_virginia: I believe you....I believe you :)

Has anyone read through all 6 pages of that Bose thread? I did last year and that's what I remembered reading about the Bose PAS and a one mic set-up.....reading the thread actually cured my case of PAS G.A.S.

BTW here's a non technical article that explains very well why some of us love
the one mic set-up:

one microphone bluegrass set-up phase (http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/onemic2.htm)

fredfrank

Sep-20-2009, 9:15am

Jim, were you able to place the tower behind you, or . . .

I remember when I had my Bose, I liked the sound, but when I realized I wouldn't be able to use it behind us, and the band started talking about monitors ,etc., I figured that was too much money tied up in a system that was being used in a conventional setup.

We currently use two JBL Eon active speakers with a two-channel preamp and 31-band equalizer and two large diaphragm mics, and have about $3K in change.

foldedpath

Sep-20-2009, 10:14pm

Hmmm thats weird ... we did a gig tonight at a eatery in Va. Beach and we did not have to make ANY consessions. And because it was a an intimate place with a small area for the band we only used one system and used one AT-4033 condensor mic and one Shure SM-57 instrument mic and it performed FLAWLESSLY.

5 people but four instruments; guitar, mandolin, bass (he brings an amp) and harmonica. We use just one channel on the Pendulum for just the one mic (KSM-27) to capture the the entire band including some of the bass amp. BTW the Pendulum's parametric EQ comes in very handy for tweaking.

I think some of what we're talking about here is how fast it is to set up a particular type of band, vs. other types of bands where shaving off a few minutes in the core PA setup just doesn't make that big a difference.

For example... consider how easy it is to ring out a single mic for feedback during soundcheck for a traditional one-mic Bluegrass band, instead of ringing out a half-dozen open condenser mics on the stage. Those are very different situations, and some types of bands really do need all those open mics. We don't all play Bluegrass.

I play in one Irish 'trad/fiddle tunes trio that's close to a one-mic Bluegrass band in simplicity of setup. No vocals, just three mics, and minimal instrument swaps. A Bose system might make a difference there, in faster setup time. It's already a band with a light footprint for setup and tear-down, like the two bands mentioned above.

The other band is a 4-piece Irish 'trad/OldTime/Blues string band with 3 instrument mics and 2 vocal mics (plus extras for guests), and a bass amp. Two band members (including me) are multi-instrumentalists, and the fiddler has two fiddles in different tunings. Between all of us, we have to unpack 10 instruments, tune them all up, and get them on instrument stands. We play seated, so sometimes we also have to bring in folding chairs or stools if the venue doesn't have something we can use. It takes a while to get this show rolling, and it's not just because of the PA setup time.

I use the same PA rig for both bands, and the PA setup time is a much smaller percentage of the total setup time for the larger group, compared to the trio. Shaving a few minutes off the setup time just isn't that big a deal when you're carting all this other stuff in from the cars anyway.

... Which is just another way of saying that everyone's situation is a little different, and there aren't any magic bullet solutions.

AnotherScott

Oct-24-2009, 9:59am

I decided on a pair of QSC K10 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/K_Series/) powered speakers for mains (32 lbs. each)...Then for larger gigs, we can...substitute the SRM450's

For bigger gigs, I think you might be better off sticking with the K10 and adding something like the JBL EON 518S subwoofer.

Yes, switching from the K10 to the SRM450 will get you more bass (down 10 db at 45 Hz vs. 56 Hz), but also lower max SPL (127 db vs 129 db max at 1 meter). Moreover, the K10-plus-a-sub should just sound better. The K10s themselves will be able to drive louder and cleaner because you'll be able to kick in their "ext sub" switch (100 Hz HPF) making them work much less hard. The 10" should sound tighter than the 15" for carrying the mids. The QSC's "directivity matched transition" and conical wave guide should provide better off-axis sound. Besides these reasons to expect the K10 to sound better than the SRM450 (apart from bass), the bass provided by the Eon sub should be better than the SRM450s:

SRM 450 = -3dB at 55 Hz, -10 dB at 45 Hz, 127 dB peak SPL (presumably 130 dB if running a pair)

JBL EON sub = -3dB at 42 Hz, -10 dB at 36 Hz, 129 dB peak SPL

and again, importantly, the bass is no longer compromising the mains' ability to deliver the rest of the frequency spectrum as cleanly as possible.

Another advantage is that your band is then always running the same mains, making sound and set-up more consistent and predictable from gig to gig compared to switching between two different sets of mains.

You could probably sell your SRM450s for almost enough to pay for the JBL.

The only downside I see is total weight.

Pair of K10 and Sub, total weight = 129 lb in 3 pieces (32, 32, and 63)
Pair SRM 450s = 102 lb in two pieces (51 and 51)

Considering the split, I'm not sure which would actually be more cumbersome to move.

Anyway, I do want to add a disclaimer that I have not heard these setups, so this is theoretical... but it makes sense to me. ;-)

AnotherScott

Oct-24-2009, 10:27am

my two QSC K10 powered cabs plus TC Helicon monitors

Ah, I see you picked the TC Helicon over the Mackie SRM 150. Was it six of one, half dozen of the other, or was there something that gave you a real preference?

I'm thinking about adding some small monitors to my rig... I'm actually thinking about the Gemini RS-408. It's not the quality I'd look at for mains, but as vocal monitors, I'm thinking they might be better than those really small ones. Priced about the same, not as small and light (but not bad), and might be a bit more capable of handling more-than-vocals if I need to feed some other stuff through the monitors.

foldedpath

Oct-24-2009, 3:36pm

For bigger gigs, I think you might be better off sticking with the K10 and adding something like the JBL EON 518S subwoofer.

Yes, switching from the K10 to the SRM450 will get you more bass (down 10 db at 45 Hz vs. 56 Hz), but also lower max SPL (127 db vs 129 db max at 1 meter). Moreover, the K10-plus-a-sub should just sound better.

I've had a little more experience running the K10's since that last post, and yeah, I don't think the SRM450's will cut it for larger gigs or bass reinforcement. At the moment I don't need a sub anyway. The one band that has a bass player runs the bass outside the PA, which simplifies things. At this point I'm going to try to stick with the K10's for anything we provide ourselves, and anything else will be a house system.

Ah, I see you picked the TC Helicon over the Mackie SRM 150. Was it six of one, half dozen of the other, or was there something that gave you a real preference?

Well, it was several things (I looked at the powered Galaxy hotspots too, by the way). The TC Helicon monitors are a wee bit smaller than the SRM150's (7" wide vs. 11"), more of a square box than a rectangle. It's a slightly smaller visual profile, easy to fit into tight spaces. The shell of the TC monitor is cast aluminum, very tough. It feels like you could drop-kick it across the room with no damage (well, not to the case anyway).

A big consideration was that the more basic of the two TC versions has just a volume knob on the front, no EQ or other stuff. I was looking to replace a conventional monitor, and I didn't want excess controls where I'd just have to make sure the settings weren't altered from one gig to the next. I'd rather do any monitor EQ at the mixer position anyway. The controls and features on the SRM150 (and the TC VSM-300XT also) seemed fussy and unnecessary for what I'd be using it for. Also it didn't hurt that the TC VSM-200XT is $50 less expensive than the SRM150. If you did want to use one of these things as a micro PA, you'd want one of the models with EQ and extra mix inputs. I just didn't need it, and didn't want to pay for it.

I didn't have a chance to compare the SRM150 in person, so I can't comment on quality of audio between the two. The TC monitor sounds good enough for the purpose, but it's no studio reference monitor. It's a little hyped in the mids, which is what you'd expect for a vocal monitor.

I'm thinking about adding some small monitors to my rig... I'm actually thinking about the Gemini RS-408. It's not the quality I'd look at for mains, but as vocal monitors, I'm thinking they might be better than those really small ones. Priced about the same, not as small and light (but not bad), and might be a bit more capable of handling more-than-vocals if I need to feed some other stuff through the monitors.

There are a bunch of considerations when thinking about going to micro monitors as a replacement for "real" monitors, or other systems like IEM's. How loud is your overall stage volume, how much bass and low midrange bleed are you hearing from the main speakers and local wall reflections, and so on.

The little TC monitors work for me because, aside from electric bass in one band, it's all acoustic instruments and occasional vocals. Our stage volume isn't very loud because we don't have drums, and we don't have a backline of electric guitar amps. All I need from the tiny monitors is just a little foldback of the upper mids and highs... the part of the mix that we're not already hearing either acoustically on stage, or bouncing back as bleed from the main speakers. If you're running a louder stage, you might need a beefier monitor with more punch in the midrange. These little guys get a bit harsh when pushed hard, although they will go surprisingly loud.

AnotherScott

Oct-25-2009, 11:50am

The little TC monitors work for me because, aside from electric bass in one band, it's all acoustic instruments and occasional vocals. Our stage volume isn't very loud because we don't have drums, and we don't have a backline of electric guitar amps.

Ah, that makes sense. My bands are electric.

I just saw that Behringer has a new powered speaker, B208D, which is smaller and lighter than the Gemini, and probably sounds better. I mean, Behringer isn't top-flight stuff by any means, but I'd still tend to rate it above Gemini! But besides that bias in my judgment, the Gemini has a single amp (passive x'over to the HF driver), the Behringer is internally bi-amp'd.

mandroid

Oct-25-2009, 3:16pm

Could always try Upgrading the Raw speakers inside the cabinet , replace the low price-point ones with something better.

Rick Turner

Oct-27-2009, 6:58am

You have to be careful with driver swapping. Loudspeaker cabinets are usually "tuned" to specific drivers.

jim_n_virginia

Oct-31-2009, 7:13am

Man did this thread get of topic! LOL! :))

That's OK I don't care ... I would like to add this though.

Our 6 member band just did a gig at a VFW Post. It was noisey, crowded and we had minimal space to set up.

We used 2 Bose PAS systems and one AT-4033 condenser mic and two SM-57instrument mics.

I timed us and from unloading in the parking lot to set up with sound check done and ready to play it took 20 mintes and that included goofing off! To break down and load in the vehicles it was 15 minutes (it was smoky in there and I was ready to GO!).

I got 3 compliments on the quality of the sound (NEVER EVER got one when I use my PA) one from the VFW member who sets up their Karaoke and their DJ who was saying he was going to buy a BOSE system and replace the equipment in the Post.

So while you guys are still unplugging monitors and taking mains off of stands and unplugging mic cords and winding them up etc. I'll be halfway home with my pay in my pocket! LOL! :grin:

jim_n_virginia

Oct-31-2009, 7:24am

I think some of what we're talking about here is how fast it is to set up a particular type of band, vs. other types of bands where shaving off a few minutes in the core PA setup just doesn't make that big a difference..

Sorry but bull baloney :grin: I'm not talking about shaving off a few minutes for me it shaving off a whole hour of set up and loading up.

I am in a 6 member band. 3 sing and nobody plugs in except the upright bass.

I'm not talking about a little duo or trio heck you don't even need a PA system just get a few acoustic amps. :grin:

AnotherScott

Oct-31-2009, 12:10pm

Anyway, for what it's worth.... I decided on a pair of QSC K10 (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/K_Series/) powered speakers for mains (32 lbs. each). For the smallest gigs we either won't use monitors (using angle-in bleed from the mains), or we'll use little micro jobs

I'm wondering if you've tried the angle-in bleed method, and how it's worked. An interesting -- and I think generally good -- feature of the QSCs are the larger conical dispersion area, which should provide a more natural, more balanced sound over a wider audience area. But I wonder if that less "restricted" HF path may create a situation more prone to feedback if used the way you describe, intentionally cheating the speakers in a bit toward the performers.

foldedpath

Oct-31-2009, 1:37pm

Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
I think some of what we're talking about here is how fast it is to set up a particular type of band, vs. other types of bands where shaving off a few minutes in the core PA setup just doesn't make that big a difference..Sorry but bull baloney :grin: I'm not talking about shaving off a few minutes for me it shaving off a whole hour of set up and loading up.

I am in a 6 member band. 3 sing and nobody plugs in except the upright bass.

I'm not talking about a little duo or trio heck you don't even need a PA system just get a few acoustic amps. :grin:

Now waitaminnit. If you're gonna call bull balony, you know you're gonna get a rebuttal. ;)

Modern compact PA's that can cover the same room and audience size, with the same volume as a pair of Bose towers don't have to take an extra hour to set up!

Not unless you're using the kind of gear we all used 20 -30 years ago. Remember that? Heavy carpet-covered plywood speaker cabinets, boat anchor power amps, and rolling racks that weigh a ton. Most of the time was spent just moving all that heavy stuff around. Modern lightweight PA gear is different, especially when scaled down to the kind of smaller venues a Bose PAS can work in.

As far as bands go, I don't think our 4-piece OldTime/Blues string band is all that different from what you're doing. It's one lead singer, one backup singer, an electric bass player, and a bunch of instrument swapping between fiddles, mandolin, guitars, resonator guitars, and banjo. We played a gig a week ago, and here's what we carried as a PA:

Two QSC K10 powered speakers for mains, 32 lbs. each. We didn't need speaker stands on this particular gig. It was a raised stage so we set the mains on the floor at stage corners, where one could shoot down the open walkway next to the bar. I like not using stands in places where that will work. It keeps the visual profile low, so the audience is mostly looking at band members and not equipment. When we carry stands, that's one more gig bag and about 20 lbs.
Two tiny TC vocal monitors, 11 lbs. each.
8-channel Soundcraft mixer, 10 lbs.
The bass player bought a bass amp that doesn't run through the PA.
We use two vocal mics on stands, and three instrument mics on stands. The mic stands, instrument stands, and mic cables all go into a hard-pan duffel bag with roller wheels. It's the heaviest thing we carry (I haven't weighed it... maybe 50 lbs.?), but we'd be using it if we had a Bose system too.
Utility gig bag for AC power drop and speaker cables (combined AC/XLR loom for the powered speakers, plus IEC Y-cord to get power to the monitors off the same cable).

Everything in the PA is in its own gig bag, and no bag weighs more than 35 lbs. except for the mic stand bag. The whole PA fits in the back of a Subaru Forester with my two guitars and mandolin, and my S.O.'s two fiddles. Fitting everything easily into the little Subaru was the #1 requirement when I started downsizing the PA last year. Also keeping the weight down on individual bags to carry, since I ain't getting any younger and my back is letting me know about it. The other two musicians drove their own car, with the bass amp and their collection of instruments.

I timed the setup on the last gig because this was the first time out with this particular PA configuration. With all four band members helping with the load-in, and two of us doing the actual setup and cabling, it took 35 minutes to load in and set up the PA for line check (thumping mics, yep everything works). Actual sound check too a little longer, because we had to tune up 12 different instruments. With 61 separate strings, that takes a while :grin:. That's what I was talking about in the quote above, where the PA setup is just part of the picture. I didn't time the load-out, but it was a little shorter, maybe 20 minutes to pack and load out. We did get compliments after the gig for the sound quality. Those QSC's are killer speakers for acoustic music and vocals.

If it's a competition to see who can set up the fastest, I'm sure the Bose system would win. I do spend a little more time stringing cables with separate mains and monitors, although it's really just a matter of a few minutes. The Bose T1 probably hooks up a minute or two faster than setting up our 8-channel mixer, since it has to be powered separately. Overall, our setup is probably one extra trip to the car than if we used a Bose system with two towers. Of course, this is something that will matter much more to a solo act than to a band, where there are extra helping hands.

At any rate, for bands our size and typical weekend warrior venues, the difference doesn't have to be "shaving off an hour of setup" like you're saying.... unless you're using 20 year old gear, or gear that's way overpowered for the job. :) Let's make these comparisons with alternative modern gear that's more compact and lightweight than what we had available years ago. Setup time is only one part of the comparison anyway. I think the more significant differences are in areas like feedback control with separate mains + monitors compared to the "everything's a monitor" approach with the Bose, how many open mics are on stage, what kind of floor space you have, etc. It isn't all about the setup time, unless that's the only thing a person is prioritizing for their PA. And if that's the case... heck, a Fender Passport goes up and down pretty fast too. I just wouldn't want to use one.

(Uh oh... I just alienated the Passport users here...)

Tim2723

Nov-01-2009, 8:33am

It's not the size or weight, those problems went out the door years ago with the big, wooden, carpet-covered monsters, but for me it's the number of trips to the car. These small, compact systems hold great appeal for me that way, be they Bose, Fishman, Fender, whatever. Being able to pick up a whole sound system and walk in the door with it makes me want to get one of these.

allenhopkins

Nov-01-2009, 11:52am

Being able to pick up a whole sound system and walk in the door with it makes me want to get one of these.

Amen to that. I'm at the point where it's either the Fishman SoloAmp (sometimes with a Behringer sub-mixer) or the Fender Passport for 90% of my gigs. The Fishman carrying bag even has straps on the outside to hold the mic stand, and I can get mics and cords inside it, so it's a one-trip load-in and load-out.

Since I'm usually toting a minimum of three instruments to a gig, having the sound system portable and simple to use is a major consideration.

foldedpath

Nov-01-2009, 12:59pm

I'm wondering if you've tried the angle-in bleed method, and how it's worked. An interesting -- and I think generally good -- feature of the QSCs are the larger conical dispersion area, which should provide a more natural, more balanced sound over a wider audience area. But I wonder if that less "restricted" HF path may create a situation more prone to feedback if used the way you describe, intentionally cheating the speakers in a bit toward the performers.

I've used the angled-in approach a few times with other speakers, but not these new QSC's yet. I don't think the wide dispersion would cause any additional problems, at least in theory. It just means we'd toe them in a little less than with a horn that wasn't as wide. That could actually be an advantage, because it reduces the "hot spot" you might get for audience members sitting in the middle where the horns converge. All horns are a little hotter in the center of the pattern.

How well this idea works also depends on how much room you have to work with. It's not so great on a cramped stage with the speakers close, which is one reason I'm favoring the TC Helicon mini monitors right now. We always seem to end up in cramped spaces when we play. If you can get the speakers at some distance to each side and in front, away from the mics, it can work better.

AnotherScott

Nov-01-2009, 1:12pm

I don't think the wide dispersion would cause any additional problems, at least in theory. It just means we'd toe them in a little less than with a horn that wasn't as wide. That could actually be an advantage

I see your point. But while toeing them in less than you would a cabinet with less wide dispersion addresses the issue horizontally, the bigger part of my concern is that QSCs conical dispersion pattern makes the pattern much large *vertically*. Keeping in mind that the cabs will probably be positioned somewhat over your head... I think most horns in these kinds of cabs are about 40 degree vertical dispersion (far less than they are horizontally), so if the QSC is, say, 90 vertically, then when you cheat them in, they may "catch" a lot more of a vocal mic than a typical similarly raised cheated-in speaker that doesn't have nearly as much vertical dispersion, and so it may be harder to avoid that kind of feedback compared to other speakers. I mean, in a way, it seems to me that when you use a cheated-in main as a monitor, you're actually to some extent taking advantage of the "flaw" that they don't have good vertical dispersion!

Anyway, I understand, you haven't tried it yet. I'll be curious to hear about it if/when someone does try it.

foldedpath

Nov-01-2009, 1:59pm

Scott, yeah, I see your point. Sometimes I wish they hadn't used a conical horn design, but I think it was done so the k10's would have a wide pattern when used horizontally as floor monitors. It's not great for low ceiling reflections either, although the K series does have a neat multi-angle pole socket, where you can tilt them down slightly to keep some reflections off the ceiling.

The slightly larger K12 has a 75 degree angle, so maybe that would work better for that idea, I don't know. If I get a chance to try the tilted-in "mains as monitors" thing, I'll post about the results. The trio is booked for an upcoming gig where reinforcement needs are very minimal (think senior citizen audience levels). I'll probably bring just a single K10 and tilt it towards the band for monitoring. I've played in that venue before and there's enough room for it to work. Hey, that also fits the "PA in one trip from the car" criteria! :) That's one thing I like about the conventional PA approach vs. these newfangled speaker sticks: the gear can scale down as well as up, for different types of gigs. Anyway, I'll get a chance to see how the dispersion works in that situation.

AnotherScott

Nov-01-2009, 3:44pm

Sometimes I wish they hadn't used a conical horn design, but I think it was done so the k10's would have a wide pattern when used horizontally as floor monitors.

I think the real benefit is supposed to me a more open, natural sound, as traditional horns do tend to add a bit of harshness. At any rate, they do use the conical approach even in the K8 (not designed to be a floor monitor).

Interesting, though, that you bring up the topic of dispersion patterns for floor monitors. JBL Eons sit as floor monitor vertically, so they have the same orientation as they do when used for FOH. Some other brand flip 90 degrees when used as floor monitors. so the dispersion pattern becomes narrow and tall. It seems to me that this can make a significant difference in application, though I've never seen it mentioned when people compare these various monitors. If you have a singer who moves around the stage a lot, a wide dispersion front monitor for him/her is probably beneficial. If you have 3 guitarists up front singing into mics on stands (so the mics don't move), you'd presumably be better off with narrow dispersion on the monitors, so each one is aimed at that particular singer, with minimal "leakage" to the adjacent singers... that would probably give you better feedback control. Again, this is a place where I can see the QSC approach actually being a limitation, even though it probably makes them generally better sounding as mains. Again, I'm curious to hear people's experiences. People obviously love the QSCs as mains, but I wonder how they are as monitors.