Up-down picking quandry

[Steve Stroot]

I'm learning from Bert Casey's book/DVD. He discusses the up-down picking technique and gives the student a specific up-down picking pattern for each song. I often stray from the specified up-down picking pattern (ie: pick up when I should pick down). Is this a problem? Should I work more diligently on learning and staying with the exact up-down sequences his tablature dictates? Thanks for helping a mandolin neophyte.

[Perry]

Should I work more diligently on learning and staying with the exact up-down sequences his tablature dictates?

Since you are a self-proclaimed neophyte my answer to you would be YES pay very strict attention to those up and down patterns because you will build good habits right from the get go. As a general rule of thumb you should be picking down on the down beat and up on the up beat.

Are you a foot tapper? If not I'd get into that habit too...when you your foot comes down that's when you pick down.

Advance pickers like Tony Rice will stray from the "down stroke on the down beat" rule but hey that's Tony.

Good luck!

[DerTiefster]

While the advice might be proper, one thing missing from this discussion (as of my reading) seems to be a description of the benefit accruing from "doin' it that way." What is the gain? I ask as another neophyte. I continually find myself wanting to pick upward on the more bass note following a downstroke on a treble string, even if it's a quarter or half note and the bass note is being plucked on the downbeat. It doesn't feel quite natural to pull the pick upward enough to go for a downstroke.

[John McGann]

"Up-down" is backwards from conventional alternate picking- down/up would go along with notes on the downbeats getting a downstroke, ups on upbeats.

There are, of course, other ways to do this, but alternate picking is a good 'all purpose' technique as a sound basis for a right hand that eventually doesn't have to 'think' on the fly.

Exceptions to this would be crosspicking (http://www.johnmcgann.com/crosspicking.html), sweep picking, jig and other odd-time picking etc.

For bluegrass, it's good to realize that at certain speeds, for certain kinds of emphasis, all downstrokes can be used-but you won't get through "Whitehouse Blues" with it ;) Long strings of eighth notes like Roanoke are going to sound good and smooth with alternate picking.

There's also something with the constant rhythm the d/u/d/u provides...if you 'slip-pick' (following through with another downstroke if you are ascending to a higher string or upstroke for a lower string) the emPHAsis can go on the wrong sylLAblle and interfere with the rhythm (in the worst case) OR can help you phrase your line in a way that accentuates that particular note grouping (if that's what you want).

Yes, sometimes there are counter-intuitive moves where you think "why"? If you have multiple ways of doing something, the upside is lots of tools in your toolbox; the downside is that it takes longer to get to know each tool well enough to depend on. Most people are better off concentrating on ONE way for awhile before trying (and being frustrated by) too many choices.

Upstrokes SOUND different than downstrokes, and having gravity working for you is a great thing.

[Perry]

What is the gain?

The down beat is the strong beat in most music. When you pick down you have gravity on your side so you will tend to emphasis the down beats on your down strokes; this is a good thing and helps set up a "pulse".

Really good pickers can pick equally loud on down and up strokes (as a matter of fact this is good exercise....try and be equally loud AND have the same tone on both up and down strokes...it's not easy).

Still even if you can achieve "parity" on both your up and down strokes having gravity on your side for the down beats is the way you want to go.

[250sc]

Why?

When you're in the habit of playing DUDU you don't have to think of the best picking pattern to use for the next phrase. It's just automatic.

[Soupy1957]

I'm finding the up/down work to be very valuable, and useful. What I stink at, and am working on, is doing up/downs using string sets that are not side-by-side; like down on the G's and up on the A's, for example, and then down on the D's and up on the E's.

Tremelos, (I have mistakenly called these "arpeggio's" in other threads, and stand corrected), that are strong, smooth and even, is also another thing I'm working on right now.

Of course, when I get crankin in a song, and I get lost in it, I sometimes lose control my DUDUDU, (and sometimes it bites me in the rear).

[Tom C]

Take 2 notes. Open G and open D.
Just in 1/8 notes for example......Play G Down and D up. One may think to play the D down because the string is physically lower and your pick is alreay going in that direction. But.....when this comes in the middle of a tune, just try to control the tempo of Down/Down :) . It's much easier keeping tempo with down/up even though you have to cross the D for the upstroke. Of course there are exceptions.

[Rob Gerety]

I spent a lot of years figuring that strict alternate picking was not important. I was wrong. I'm paying for it now. As I improve - both mando and guitar - I am realizing that speed and precision are greatly improved with strict alternate picking. Of course really advanced players will vary - but I don't fall into that category - yet. I try very hard now to learn every new tune in 4/4 time with a strict alternate dudu pattern. In 6/8 time I try to be pretty strict about using dud dud. It helps my speed. It help my rhythm. It helps my precision and clean playing.

It can be a little confusing because when I say strict dudu I don't mean that you hit a note on every d and every u. The point is to keep your hand moving with the rhythm - you do have places with no note being struck - but you keep your hand moving dudu with the rhythm and just pick at air in those places. Its almost like the notes are getting in the way of my hand that moves almost like a metronome - that is overstating it - but that is the idea. At least that is what I am doing. Butch B. teaches that in one of his DVDs and it has helped me quite a bit.

[Mike Bunting]

Soapy, you seem to use up-down and down-up interchangeably, there is a difference. What do you mean?
Down-up is a must, you can't rationalize it away.

[Tobin]

Upstrokes SOUND different than downstrokes, and having gravity working for you is a great thing.
I'm not so sure that gravity is the main factor here. It seems to make no difference if I'm sitting/standing or laying on my back, downstrokes still sound different.

I recall from another thread a while back that many people claimed that an upstroke is usually only picking one string in each pair, while the downstroke usually picks both strings. This is likely the result of the way the picking hand is angled (actually, the angle of the pick as it comes across the strings). It's unnatural and awkward to reverse the angle of the pick when coming back up on the upstroke.

So in the end, I do agree that maintaining a proper DUDU pattern is important for most music, but I think the main reason the emphasis on downstrokes is more noticeable is because of natural pick angle rather than gravity.

Steve Stroot, as an example, I struggled for months on Chris Thile's "Ode to a butterfly", especially in the bridge section. I simply couldn't get the darn thing to go smoothly until I broke down my picking technique and realized that I was reversing a couple of strokes. Once I changed it back and maintained a DUDU pick stroke rhythm, everything fell into place. It was like magic! I've also had that epiphany on several other pieces. Intuitively, one would think that pick direction shouldn't matter than much but it really does. Get into the habit early and approach all your standard (4/4) music with that approach. Once you're more advanced, you can experiment with different picking techniques as needed. But DUDU is truly a fundamental technique of mandolin playing and should be what you use as your basic approach. Using it will prevent problems down the road.

[Rob Gerety]

Once I changed it back and maintained a DUDU pick stroke rhythm, everything fell into place. It was like magic!

Yea, I have had this very same experience - often if I am struggling with a section I'll slow way way down and get the picking pattern down cold and then it will fall into place.

[DerTiefster]

Soapy, you seem to use up-down and down-up interchangeably, there is a difference. What do you mean?...While this is a few weeks late as a comment, I'd take Soupy's comment to be from a fairly inexperienced picker (although probably not nearly as inexperienced as I am) who intends to emphasize the alternating rhythm instead of starting on an up-tick. I can see that it will be better for me in communication to adopt "down-up" as a description instead of "up-down" just to avoid this kind of miscommunication.

To all involved in this thread: Thanks for your contributions. I benefit from them.

addition: and I'll comment here that my experience with the strict dudu pattern for my working on Whiskey Before Breakfast has been good. When I first tried it, it seemed to make no difference, but I can tell you that when I stray from the picking pattern I get confused much more readily. The body remembers the picking pattern and if the mind gets confused then unless things are really, really well "in hand" (pun intended) the body soon follows.

[John Flynn]

I fought the DUDU "law" for years...and the law won! When I have an inexplicable problem playing a 4/4 or 2/4 tune at speed it is almost always a pick direction problem. I have worked, and continue to work, on DUDU and it is paying off. I know it seems easier to ignore it, but without it, you may hit a "wall" at what you can do .
Unfortunately, it kind of ruins you for jig picking, DUDDUD. I am having to completely re-train myself for that!