Light as a Feather. Your thoughts?

[neal]

I was playing a fairly dead sounding pacific rim mandolin, an F style. Played well, in an ergonomic sense I suppose, intonated well. Not a cheap, in the just under 1K range. But I pick up my 20's Gibson A, the weight difference was very noticeable. As was the sound.

Are there PacRim F's out there that are lightly built? Are any of them comparable to those old Gibsons, or the newer luthier built? I would like an F style, but really don't want, or feel up to the standards of a nice F2, or 4 at this stage in this particular musical meander.

I do play other instruments, and weight seems to be a factor in the sound and tone of an instrument. Ukes for instance, the best ukes I've had the opportunity to play were all light, some of the others that were heavier just don't seem to cut it. And now it seems true with mandolins. Guitars, I suppose looking back were also the same.

I do realize there's a fine line, building something that's on the edge of imploding and being stable is a difficult art.

Just a thought, would appreciate your thoughts about this.

[Geoff B]

There is a logical limit to how light an instrument can get, but I've never taken it there because it takes so much time and effort to just destroy it. I did have a too-thin top implode once, but more from mistreatment at the time--although, it was destined to happen at some point. I can say that the better instruments I've played and heard have, for the most part, impressed me with how light they are. I'm not sure that's a hard and fast rule, and of course it only matters WHERE the weight is. From talking and hearing from other luthiers I agree that lighter is generally better, but structural integrity and stiffness are the determining factors. Good old violins have always blown me away with how light they are...

[Jim Kirkland]

Some mandos have so much finish that they are heavier. I scraped all the finish off an f style and it was 14 oz lighter when I had it all done and refinished. Sound was for sure better.

[300win]

I was playing a fairly dead sounding pacific rim mandolin, an F style. Played well, in an ergonomic sense I suppose, intonated well. Not a cheap, in the just under 1K range. But I pick up my 20's Gibson A, the weight difference was very noticeable. As was the sound.

Are there PacRim F's out there that are lightly built? Are any of them comparable to those old Gibsons, or the newer luthier built? I would like an F style, but really don't want, or feel up to the standards of a nice F2, or 4 at this stage in this particular musical meander.

I do play other instruments, and weight seems to be a factor in the sound and tone of an instrument. Ukes for instance, the best ukes I've had the opportunity to play were all light, some of the others that were heavier just don't seem to cut it. And now it seems true with mandolins. Guitars, I suppose looking back were also the same.

I do realize there's a fine line, building something that's on the edge of imploding and being stable is a difficult art.

Just a thought, would appreciate your thoughts about this.

Neal, I've noticed the same thing over the years. Seems like all really outstanding acoustic instruments are lighter in weight.

[neal]

Yeah, I'm not sure I ever played anything heavy, comparing size/weight, that sounded good. I have played some rather stiff weighty instruments that "played" really, really well, but sound and tone was lacking from all.

So how are the rest of these imports? I'd just like something that's comfortable for a few hours..;)

And I would love to get my hands on one of Geoff's iii's.

14-oz lighter.. my gawd Jim. Maybe these guys are a little heavy handed in the poly spray booth?

Are all the imports heavier than say- Gibson, Weber, or any higher end? And if so, is there any amount of playing in or ToneTite, or MandoVoodoo that could work to help.

14-oz lighter... yeesh.

Edit to say that I've played Nationals that were very heavy, and they also sounded good, but different category. I'd also like to get my hands on a Nat mandolin, just to see.

[Hans]

Neal, I've noticed the same thing over the years. Seems like all really outstanding acoustic instruments are lighter in weight.

Not true (IMHO). I've built both medium and heavy (not into light, equates with loud and thin sounding)...and some rather heavy ones sound as good as light if not better. My pink ivory eclipse weighs a ton and it peels paint.
The tone is in the wood of the instrument, not the shavings left on the bench. :popcorn:

[Bill Snyder]

Some mandos have so much finish that they are heavier. I scraped all the finish off an f style and it was 14 oz lighter when I had it all done and refinished. Sound was for sure better.

That is incredible. According to Weber's website the average TOTAL weight of one of their finished mandolins is only 32 oz. That means the weight of the finish alone on the one you stripped was almost 44% of what a completed Weber mandolin weighs and I would think most domestic builders would be in a similar weight range.
Actually looking at your post again you say AFTER you REFINISHED it it weighed 14 oz less. The finish you put on had to weigh something so the old finish weighed more than 14 oz. WOW.

[neal]

I would defer to an expert, Hans. Maybe "heavy" is the wrong word.. it just seems like the heavier the piece, in relation to it's size, the less sound comes out of it. Yeah, loud is often equated with tone, I've had ukes with wonderful tone on the short side of volume, and am still relatively new to the mandolin side. But if the back, sides, and top plate of the instrument are very thick and heavy, wouldn't that cut down on it's ability to transfer the sound (along with the 14 extra oz. of finish ;))?

[Lefty Luthier]

Acoustic output is only one factor in percieved volume. Tonal clarity, timbre and sustain play major roles. Another factor is balance. You can adjust the apparent weight by adding/subtracting weight from the head block, tail block and peghead. 14 ounces of weight in finish seems out of line. I have weighed more than 100 mandolins that I have built over the years and found the weight gain about 4 ounces with 12 coats of nitro.

[300win]

Not true (IMHO). I've built both medium and heavy (not into light, equates with loud and thin sounding)...and some rather heavy ones sound as good as light if not better. My pink ivory eclipse weighs a ton and it peels paint.
The tone is in the wood of the instrument, not the shavings left on the bench. :popcorn:

Well Hans, I ain't played them all. Just the "ones" I have played were like that.

[Folkmusician.com]

I would suggest taking a look at The Loar LM-600-VS, 700-VS, Kentucky KM-1000, and anything by Eastman (but especially the md815V). I have had quite a few vintage Gibson owners purchased these models and later tell me they preferred the new instrument.

[pager]

Funny how the opposite is true with banjos and Gibson Les Paul's.

Jillian

[neal]

Perfect example! They stink acoustically! ;)

[lenf12]

My '56 F-12 seems inordinately heavy to me. Since Randy Wood regraduated it, it sounds a lot better, louder, etc. but it's still heavy. My '04 Duff F-5 is very light and sounds wonderful. I have never weighed either instrument.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[mandozilla]

According to an old "Frets Looks At" review of my mandolin the stated weight is 33 1/2 oz. My instrument has carbon fiber neck reinforcement and no truss rod so it's probably a bit lighter than a mando with a 'Normal' adjustable truss rod. So far we have;

Weber = 32 oz. on average.
Kettler KF-5 = 33.5 oz.


Why are we doing this? Oh yeah, light vs. heavy...which sounds better? :grin:

~o):mandosmiley: