bending and fitting binding

[James Sanford]

I am building an H5 mandola and am to the point of appling binding.

I am using .090 x 1/4" ivoroid (wbw). My initial attempts to bend this binding and set it to the shape I need have not been successful.

I am using a hair dryer to heat the binding. I have been afraid to apply excessive heat. I expect that this may be the problem.

My question: If heated properly and held in the shape desired will the binding retain the required shape? i.e. scroll and points.

If I am not applying enough heat how is the best way to gauge this?

Any help appreciated as I am pretty frustrated at this point.:crying:

[BadeInBulverde]

GJ ... there are many fine luthiers on this board and I expect you will get many helpful replies ... as a "mechanic" at building I have found that using a "pan of sand" heated over an electric hot-plate gives me a very handy way to heat plastic and ivoroid (as well as wood) binding ... I learned this from watching eyeglass repair persons when they are 'adjusting' plastic eyeglass frames ... others I am sure will suggest other ways but this works for me.

[Gail Hester]

Binding exists in three states, hard, pliable and ashes/smoke.:))

A hair dryer will not be hot enough and I recommend a temperature adjustable heat gun. Then it's easy to determine where to set the temperature so it can be worked without flashing to ashes. You can usually get one of these at a hardware store in the paint section.

[Geoff B]

Does unsuccessful mean that it's breaking as you try to bend, or that it's not holding it's shape?

Probably need more heat. I'd take a small piece held with pliers and heat it until you know how far is too far. The ivoroid can be tricky, but having the experience on purpose will beat having it on accident, then you have a better base for continuing.

Also, the glue will hold it in shape once you get it on the instrument, so pieces can be bent in place. They don't have to be exactly pre-molded, just close enough to make the glue up easier. Hope that helps!

[James Sanford]

[QUOTE=Geoff B;677604]Does unsuccessful mean that it's breaking as you try to bend, or that it's not holding it's shape?

It is not breaking it is just not holding its shape.

I see from Gail Hester's reply that what I suspected is true... The hair dryer is not producing enough heat. I will do as you suggest and work with a small piece and see what happens.

Thanks to all who have responded.

[Bruce D. Weber]

Nothing beats a simple hot plate set on high. The real trick is to not overheat or the piece will become so soft as to heat your fingers pretty good and then retain your prints or it will violently ignite. Shake the piece over the plate a couple of inches from the element. Believe it or not, this shaking keeps the outside of the piece from igniting until the inside temp catches up. Do this only until the piece slumps easily and becomes as pliable as semi-stiff taffy. Don't forget to heat both sides at the same time, flipping it over a few times and only do about three inches at a time. If you have to go back to the heat more than twice on a section, you're probably going to ignite. As earlier suggested, a practice piece will teach you a lot.
Bruce

[Jerry Haynes]

I boil water in the microwave in a thin plastic tray. Take it out and it immediatly stops boiling, but is still very hot. Lay a piece of binding in it for 10 -15 seconds and remove. You can do about any shape needed. When you are satisifed , run cold water over it and it will retain the shape you made. Hope this helps. Jerry

[Jim Hilburn]

Mike Kemnitzer told me to use a hot plate in the early 80's, but heat guns weren't as readily available and I know Mike has gone to using a heat gun. The problem with a hot plate is once you start getting a shape it's hard to get the heat to just the spot you want to heat. So a vote for the heat gun from me.
I have my socket set right in the shop and I use them as well as my copper pipe I use for side bending to get the circular shapes that are called for with scrolls and points.
The other lesson I learned from Mike was that your going to burn your fingers sometimes so you better just get used to it.

[James Sanford]

I am just blown away by the help offered on this site. Many thanks to all who have offered advise.

This is my 7th build and none of them would have been possible but for the information and help gained here. I am making progress but these details would come with a very high cost without the help.

Maybe I'll be able to respond, in time, to others who need assistance. If so I "will pay it forward."

[Paul Hostetter]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the one I use: hot sand. Taking a cue from dispensing opticians who soften the bows on eyeglasses to fit them, I use a really coarse, smooth graded sand that's heated in a low wide can (I think it once had crabmeat in it) on a small hotplate with a variac control. When the sand is up to temp, you dip the section of the binding in the sand, which warms and softens it, and then press it to a form. Once it's cool, an instant, you move to the next section. Hot water would work as well, but the sand seems simpler to me, and much less messy.

[Bill Snyder]

GJ ... as a "mechanic" at building I have found that using a "pan of sand" heated over an electric hot-plate gives me a very handy way to heat plastic and ivoroid (as well as wood) binding ... I learned this from watching eyeglass repair persons when they are 'adjusting' plastic eyeglass frames ... others I am sure will suggest other ways but this works for me.

First response to the OP.

[man dough nollij]

The hot sand sounds like a good idea. You could stick a meat thermometer in there and stir it around. That way you could experiment and find what the ideal temperature range is.

I use heat guns quite a bit at work, mostly to apply heat shring tubing to cables and connectors. Those things (at least the ones I'm used to) get HOT if you get anything too close to them, or leave it there too long. :disbelief:

[man dough nollij]

Here's a heatgun on my workbench. They are awesome for heat-shrinking stuff and might be good for binding. The flat plate on the "back" so that it points up is a great feature.

[buckhorn]

getting the binding formed right is just about the hardest stage of the build for me...i also use a haet gun ,but it can be very easy to burn the work piece....after a few flameups you will get the feal for the right temp....i use small wedges around the scroll to hold the binding in place and heat it again to get the form i can....then , lots of rubber bands till the glue is dry.... iveroid is harder to work then abs........keith

[Michael Lewis]

Practice, practice, practice, then do it again.

[Paul Hostetter]

First response to the OP.

Oops, missed it completely. Thanks. Nice to have allies!

I've had ivoroid ignite in front of a heat gun. I know there's a learning curve, but the sand seems so much safer.

[James Sanford]

Oops, missed it completely. Thanks. Nice to have allies!

I've had ivoroid ignite in front of a heat gun. I know there's a learning curve, but the sand seems so much safer.

Just a quick update, I opted to try the hot sand and found that it works perfectly. Used a hot plate with a pan of play sand and heated it to 175-180 degrees. Temp verified with a cheap meat thermometer. I do not know how accurate it is but at least it is a good guideline for repeatability.

Thanks again to all who responded.

[Lefty Luthier]

Hot sand works well as does hot water. After turning lots of celluloid to ash, I finally mastered the heat gun method since it is just more handy on a day to day basis. For the beginner, the hot sand is likely best since it is very forgiving.

[buddyellis]

On the 'hot sand' vein, try small glass beads (http://www.blockheadstamps.com/marbles_micro_glass.html).

[Stephanie Reiser]

I've always had success with only a hair dryer, and on especially tight scrolls like the small one on the F headstock I use boiling water.

[crazymandolinist]

Does the sand technique also work with wood? Like an ebony/maple binding? The technique would really help in tight curves.

[James Sanford]

Here is the H5 in the white. Not perfect but getting better.

(Photo did not load. I will try again.)

[James Sanford]

Trying again with photo

[Bill Snyder]

Looking good Jim.

[bennyb]

Binding looks great, Jim.

benny