Cirlcle of Fifths

[John Bertotti]

JimD "Don't stop doing those you already learned. Let your practice of these "accumulate". #My prefered order to play them in is the circle of fifths: C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G, C. To explain why would take another post."
# I'm intrigued explain away, at you leisure' if you so chose. We would all love to hear it. Thanks John #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

Here is the link where I quoted Jim from. http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=17523 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=17523)

[sailaway]

um, correct my math if I'm wrong , but isn't c to f a major 4th ? the circle of fifths is c to g (a fifth) then g to d ( a fifth) , then d to a, a to e , e to b, b to f # etc etc etc ( and so forth.) And note -- the circle of 5ths , in reverse, is a circle of 4ths ( c to f , f to b flat, etc... ) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Ted Eschliman]

um, correct #my math #if #I'm #wrong , #but #isn't #c #to #f a #major #4th ?
Certainly, (techinically a "Perfect 4th") but another way of looking at it is the "C" is the 5th of "F." Progressing that direction allows the current key to be the 5 (or V7) of the next key, (which becomes the 5 of the next, etc.)
Proficiency with the Circle of 5ths can be a very practical skill. In Swing and many Broadway tunes, many sections will follow this pattern, as the 5th (or dominant) becomes a sort of "transition" chord. It can be "stacked" so that you actually progress through keys quickly.

http://www.mandolinsessions.com/feb04/jazz2.jpg
Here are some familiar songs where you find this used:

As Long As I Live
Basin Street Blues
All of Me # #
Birth Of The Blues
I Got Rhythm # # # # # # # # # # #
It Might As Well Be Spring
I've Got The World On A String # # #
S'Wonderful
Scrapple From The Apple

Also, a common technique in key modulations is to go to the "V" of the next key. Practicing different keys using the circle of fifths as a reference can make your awareness of where the "V" is second nature.

[JimD]

Ok, I hope I don't get too verbose. This is a very "large" topic.

The circle of fifths is one of only two cycles of a single interval that will produce all 12 pitches.

For instance, if we were to use a whole step: C, D, E, F#, G#, A#, C. It cycles back to the starting pitch without going through all 12 pitches. Most other intervals will also produce incomplete cycles.

The half step is the other interval that produces all twelve: C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C.

When choosing an order in which to systematically go through all the keys or pitches, there are several good reasons to choose the circle of fifths over the chromatic scale. The first is entirely practical: From the standpoint of trying to learn the notes (the question that brought this up in the first place), it is too easy to simply move your finger to the next higher fret for the next note. This way C# isn't fully learned on its own but only understood in its relationship to C. (a sharp being one fret higher than the natural) If you want to really be sure of your fingerboard the C# (and every other pitch) should be known and located entirely independently. I know this isn't as clearly stated as I would like, but I hope you know what I mean...

In addition, by practicing this and other things (scales, arpeggios, chords etc.) in this order. You are learning and reinforcing one of the most common progressions in all tonal music (basically from Monteverdi in the 17th century through classical, jazz, pop, rock, bluegrass etc.).

Play these progressions:
G7 C
A7 Dm
Bbm7 Eb9 Abmaj7 or Bbm9 Eb13 Abmaj9
E7 A7 D7 G

compare them to the circle of 5ths C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, B, E, A, D, G, C

These are all progressions of a descending 5th. This type of progression pervades most music of European and American traditions.

I choose the circle of 5ths for these reasons. In order to get the most out of our practice time (and who among us has as much practice time as we really want?), we should do things that reinforce concepts while exercising fingers.

Hope this is clear enough. If not. let me know and I'll try to clarify.

[JimD]

Quote (sailaway @ Aug. 14 2004, 07:49)
um, correct #my math #if #I'm #wrong , #but #isn't #c #to #f a #major #4th ?

Yes, but an ascending 4th is also a descending 5th, hence the importance of the principle of inversion.

Also, ditto everything that Ted said.

[Rick W]

Even as a masters student I have to calculate some fo the "way-out" key signatures (e.g., Gb maj) by running the circle of fifths.

Like many people, I think better in ascending fashion, rather than descending, so I keep in mind that a perfect fifth down is the same as a perfect fourth up, and vice versa (that's part of the reason it's called "perfect"). Since flats are normally calculated going counterclockwise around the Circle (that is, descending) it is easier for me to count UP a perfect fourth to arrive at the note name.

Example: A P5 below C is F. I can count backward those five steps, or simply count up from C a P4, still arriving at F. Works every time in every key; even minor keys, because P4 and P5 are the same in maj or min (part of the reason they're called "perfect"). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[John Bertotti]

You all amaze me. The knowledge is incredible. Considering I have only been studying this for a couple months I won't feel bad about not understanding half of this. Fortunately I will be saving this thread so post away. If I don't get it now I will later. Thanks all. JimD thanks I understood your post. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[August Watters]

Even as a masters student I have to calculate some fo the "way-out" key signatures (e.g., Gb maj) by running the circle of fifths.


Here's a shortcut. First, consider:
1) Transposing down by a half-step to a key of the same letter name (e.g., G to G-flat) is the same as adding seven flats;
2) Adding flats is the same as subtracting sharps.

Now the calculation:
Key of G - 1 sharp
Desired key: G-flat
1 sharp plus 7 flats equals six flats
(e.g., 1 minus 7 = -6)
Key of G-flat equals 6 flats

Works backwards for sharp keys:
C to C# - add seven sharps
zero plus seven = seven
C# has seven sharps
OR
B-flat to B - add seven sharps
-2 + 7 = 5
B has five sharps

Hope this helps!

August W

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

The way I tend to look at a lot of music theory stuff is in terms of tones and semi tones. The reason for this is because I can't yet simply "adjust" for the lack of B# and E# like most of you can. For example scales are patterns of tones and semi tones. But I would have to dig out my notes to see what the pattern is for say a major scale and I'm too lazy right now so I won't! :>) (as a guess I think it's tone tone semitone tone tone semitone where a tone equals two semitones - right?)But another example - major chords are always 5 then 4 semitones apart (counting the starting tone). So what notes are in a c major chord? C is 1 C# is 2 D is 3 D# is 4 E is 5 so E is in the chord now four semitones E is 1 F is 2 F# is 3 G is 4 so G is in the chord - so a C major scale is C E and G as we know. A minor chord is 4 then 5 semitones.

So in order to construct the circle of fiths illustrated above we note that the distance between adjacent keys is either 6 or 5 semi tones depending upon whether or not you count the starting tone. So since I don't have the circle memorized I construct it every time semitone by semitone and thats how I figure out the IV and V given any particular starting key. It's laborious as heck but it's what I do. I just thought this might help some of you.

All the counting sharps and flats and subtracting and so forth I think assumes you know your scales (the notes in them). I don't and so I usually resort to the lowest common denominator the lowly semitone when I'm trying to comprehend some music theory point. I find that I often have to search out somebody who can explain what I want to know in terms of tones and semitones. All this because somebody either "forgot" or thought it would make life "interesting" for people like me by not including B# and E# on the piano. I've cursed him more than once.

I'm no expert and maybe I've said something wrong here - if so correct me but I've found that working from the tone semitone basis helps me bigtime.

Take Care! -Ed-

[JimD]

[QUOTE] All this because somebody either "forgot" or thought it would make life "interesting" for people like me by not including B# and E# on the piano. I've cursed him more than once.

Actually the answer lies in the tones and semi-tones that you mention. (and yes, Ed, tones and semitones can be a good way to figure out some aspects of theory --though it can be unwieldy at times)

Think of the notation system (and the piano keyboard) as being "based on" the key of C.
C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C --tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone
or in whole and half steps: whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half.

That leaves a half step or semitone between E & F and between B & C. This is why there is no separate white key on the keyboard for E# or B# (or likewise Fb or Cb).

All of the other major scales require between 1 and 7 sharps or flats.

You'll notice that I said "no separate white key". These notes do actually exist. E# is another name for F in the same way that Bb is another name for A#. You need E# and B# to properly spell the scale of C# major for instance:
C#,D#,E#,F#,G#,A#,B#,C#

The issue is that you need ALL of the letter names to properly spell a scale.
Therefore -- F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F is the correct spelling of F major and not F, G, A, A#, C...

If you try this for the Cb, Gb, C# and F# major scales, you'll find a need for the E#, B#, Cb and Fb notes.

An interesting(I hope) aside: Many of us find it easier to sight read on the piano in keys like B or Db rather than C because the physical act of playing the black keys (rather than all white as in C major) enables you to more easily feel where you are on the keyboard and thus keep your eyes on the music.

By the way, if you haven't already done so, check out August's short cut. The "closed mathematical system" of 12 semitones and 7 letter names rewards us with a number (pun intended) of interesting mathematical short cuts and other operations. It has also spawned an entire branch of music theory in the last 50 years or so.

[mancmando]

This vaguely reminds me of my degree (maths) several years ago (hence the vagueness!) - I think the musical system can be modelled algebraically by a cyclic group, I know that by applying group theory to music that this demonstrates that to span all 12 notes by playing a regular progression it needs to either be a perfect 5th (or a perfect 4th - a 5th backwards) or a semitone (or 11 semitones - a major 7th) - I wish I could remember more, but it goes to show that when it's deconstructed, music is really mathematical. Although there do seem to be a great number of fantastic musicians who don't know anything about music theory or maths, so whilst it can be interesting and useful to know all this stuff, I don't think it is necessary....... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Dru Lee Parsec]

By the way, the order of sharps on a musical staff is also the circle of 5ths. #The sharps are always place on the staff in this exact order: F# C# G# D# A# E# B#
I remember it as :

Fat
Cats
Go
Down
Alleys
Eating
Balogna

It's silly, but it works

The way to tell the key is to look at the last sharp and go up one half step. #So 3 sharps will always be F# C# G# and the note one half step above G# is A so you're in the key of A

The order of flats is the order of sharps reversed: Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb
I remember it as the word "BEAD" and then "Groovey Cats Feet" #( These mneumonics are the work of Dr. Smith, my music theory teacher back in college. #I think she may have been obsessed with cats).

To find the key with flats you just take the next to last flat. #So 4 flats will always be Bb Eb Ab Db and the next to last flat was Ab so you're in the key of Ab. So what key is the key with just one flat? #That's the key of F. Not Fb (which is E and has the key signature of F# C# G# D#) but F.

And there you have the kitty cat explaination of the order of sharps, flats, and how to read key signatures.

[Michael H Geimer]

After reading notation for some time, I eventually found that it was easiest for me to simply think about the number of Flats or Sharps in the staff, and nevermind what the 'name' of the key might be.

As a piano player, I can also add that Gb is one of the nicest keys for piano. It has an ergonomic layout that reminds me of open G on a guitar.

Of course, the Fourth of Gb would be the elsuive Cb note that *some* claim doesn't really exists, but I assure you all it does indeed. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

- Benig

[Dru Lee Parsec]

I agree, it does exist. And I even understand why! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif DOes that make me too much of a music theory geek? I hope not. ;)

[GBG]

I've never had the money to buy enough fifths to make a good circle!!

[August Watters]

There's an interesting story about the key of Gb on the piano -- like Jim said, it's easier to sightread in because #you can feel the black keys in groups of 2 and 3. . . .

The story: Hoagy Carmichael, the great American songwriter, could play piano only in the key of Gb. That's the way he learned, so instead of relearning, he simply had someone build him a typewriter-like contraption that moved the keyboard left and right -- so he could play in different keys, while still playing the keyboard in Gb!

August W

[Michael H Geimer]

A capo (cheater) for the piano!

[JimD]

August,

I always heard that story told about Irving Berlin. Did they both have the contraption?

[Michael H Geimer]

As long as we're talking Gb here, what the heck would you call the IV7 chord?

Huh?

So the seventh note in that IV chord gets called a what?!?

It all has much more logic (and utility) if you apply JimD's advice above, making certain to use ALL the letter-names for the intervals when spelling out scales. (but no wonder so many people hate music theory)

[JimD]

In Gb, the IV7 chord would be Cbmaj7. Spelled Cb, Eb, Gb, Bb.

But, I assume you must be talking about the dominant type 7th chord on the 4th degree. This would be a Cb7 chord spelled Cb, Eb, Gb, Bbb ( B double flat).

[QUOTE](but no wonder so many people hate music theory)

--I think music theory just gets a bad reputation because most people don't stay with it long enough to get a good grounding. It also gets taught very badly sometimes. I have taught remedial theory courses (and non-remedial ones) for years and regularly have to "clean up" after well-meaning but... well, let's just say that I have seen it all.

The other problem is that "theory" isn't a good word for what we are talking about. it used to be called (and should still be, in my opinion) "musicianship studies". It is, simply put, just the basic understanding and literacy of the art that we all practice.

There are areas of musical study that can be more properly be called "theory"-- but that is another post.

[JimD]

P.S. to my last post.

Don't be put off by double flats and double sharps. On a fretted instrument, a flat is one fret lower. A double flat is 2 frets lower than the natural...

Fretted instruments are great tools for understanding theory. There are some who will tell you that the piano is essential --but I've found that folks who have both piano and a fretted instrument have the quickest grasp of concepts.

[August Watters]

I always heard that story told about Irving Berlin. Did they both have the contraption?

The fact I heard this about Hoagy Carmichael may have something to do with the fact I heard it growing up in Bloomington, Indiana, where Carmichael lived (and wrote "Stardust" by the way). But I suppose it's an urban legend at this point, so who knows?

August W

[August Watters]

--I #think music theory just gets a bad reputation because most people don't stay with it long enough to get a good grounding. It also gets taught very badly sometimes.

You can say THAT again, Jim!

Every fall a good percentage of my incoming students are full of anxiety about having to learn "theory." They come with the assumption that music theory is difficult, complex, and intimidating. Often the most difficult part of my job is getting them past this fear, and willing to accept the idea that the structure of music is easy to learn, fun and logical -- and understanding it is a big help to the creative process.

I've had many adult private students who cling to their self-image as non-readers -- they spend more energy avoiding learning the structure of music than it would take to learn it! And I've taught child students who, not knowing that reading literacy is supposed to be difficult and complicated, become fluent very quickly.

Perhaps part of the problem is the pervasive myth that there's something wrong with structured learning -- that it somehow inhibits creativity. I've been glad to hear this view far less often in the acoustic music community than I used to -- people are really curious about learning, and looking for practical tools to help them enjoy and participate in their musical traditions.

August W

[JimD]

[QUOTE]
--Perhaps part of the problem is the pervasive myth that there's something wrong with structured learning -- that it somehow inhibits creativity.

This usually comes with the "(insert famous player here) didn't read notes" or " Bill Monroe (or Chet, or Big Bill or Blind Lemon or Pete Seeger or Satchmo) said___"

It does seem to be a bit less common then in past years.

Each fall I have the same experience that you describe, August. The interesting thing is that some of the students have and incredible technical facility on their instruments but don't have enough of an understanding of the music they are playing to carry over concepts from one piece to another.

I have a feeling that as different as our two institutions are (or appear or claim to be), our students are more alike than we all would believe.

[jbrwky]

It's easy really. It's only a half step down to 5th and the cross town bus will get you to 4th in 3/4 of the time. Perfect.

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Thanks Jim for the naming convention for major scales - and I had it almost right needed one more tone in my definition of a major scale. I've never really known when to use # or b. And thank you Drew I actually followed that key signature ID stuff.

One more place where I count semitones is when I'm faced with a chord for which I don't know finger placement (often a minor) and so I play the relative major 9 semitones ahead or 3 behind. Usually the chances are good I'll know the major or at least know how it should be done. Sometimes I do vice versa as well! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The next thing I want to try to figure out is how to find chords on the fretboard using the fact that the mando is tuned in fifths (not always looking in a book). It was explained once at a fiddle camp and I glimpsed the method but then lost it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

As for theory I see it as a powerful tool because it gives insights as to other things you can do. I'll give an example. Major chord are 1 3 and 5 - well it also works in some cases to play the 1 3 and the -3! I assume it often works because the tonal relationships are constant. I look forward to what else music theory can teach me.

Take Care! -Ed-

[mandroid]

After I got used to seeing the #'s on the right side of the circle, G,D,A,E, 1,2,3,4 #'s in the key signature, then reverting to Guitar I got fretboard roadmaps- jazz-guitar, and fred puts the flats , 4ths on the right side add a flat and add a 4th to the key signature sort of rotation.
I put it down as favoring the 4th intervals that the lower strings are tuned to.

Grizzly Bears Dont [really} Fly Airplanes, do they?
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[JimD]

mandroid:

I have always followed the convention of putting the sharp keys on the right side of the circle as well. What happens, though, is that the most common progressions in American and European music must move counterclockwise around the circle.

Perhaps the author of the fretboard roadmaps simply prefers to move clockwise. The thought of relating it to the 4ths on the open strings (guitar obviously) is certainly an interesting observation.

Hey, I see that you use the grizzly bear mnemonic for the bass clef. One of my students uses one about George Bush and Arabs that I won't repeat -- we don't want the discussion to degenerate into politics and start getting people offended.

[sailaway]

wow, this thread is AWESOME ! But I am still confused. My confusion relates to using the Circle to learn a tune at a jam .Some people at jams who call out 'circle of 5ths' then what is played by them does n't seem to fit that circle, (or maybe the chord drops off the circle at some secret and unknown place. Example: so at a recent jam when a guy calls out a tune as Alabama Jubilee-Key of C - 'circle of fifths ' 'starts in A7' -- are they playing A7 , D7 (a P5th down ) to G7 to C,etc etc etc -- i e to play these changes remember the Circle and play it clockwise ?) people were really screwing up on this tune because the next part after A7 D7 G7 C goes C-A7 - Dm D7 C c7 F ... which seems to be off the Circle of 5ths chart any way you read it. Can you learned musical types shed some light on how I can use this Circle as a foundation for certain tunes? (or may be I should n't trust the song leader who says it's Circle of 5ths , unless it really is...) ? Thanks 1,000,000 ... great thread !!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ted Eschliman]

Perhaps in the "Lessons" section of the MC site, Scott's session on Rhythm Chords (http://www.mandolincafe.com/rhythmchords.html) would shed some light. Take a close look at the "bridge" section of the song; you'll see perhaps the most common "street" use of the term "Circle of Fifths."
If you are in a jam and someone calls "Circle of Fifths," (no, don't run for the Jack Daniels...) this is likely a reference to the "bridge" or middle section of the song. You'll find the same porgression in Charlie Parker's "Scrapple from the Apple."
This is a great "shorthand" term, IF you know what the other person needs. Generally it's just a short section of a song.
Learn the changes to "I've Got Rhythm" in several keys (Bb, G, F, C) and you'll be amazed at how many songs in the jazz realm have been based on these chords. (Second only to the blues!)

[August Watters]

The "circle of 5ths" progression usually means that you're going to end on the I chord -- and approach each chord by motion down a 5th (or up a 4th, same thing). Alabama Jubilee is an excellent example of this!

Like you said, Sailaway, #the tune begins on an A7 and moves up in fourths: A7-D7-G7-C. This is a "circle of 5ths" progression, so when you hear someone call "circle of 5ths," you can expect all the chords to move up a 4th until you reach the key center. This is also a case of what's called extended dominants -- the dominant of the key of C (G7) is approached by a chain of 7th chords, each one moving up a fourth: A7-D7-G7-C. It was an overwhelmingly popular progression in early jazz, and has filtered into many other musical forms since.

The end of Alabama Jubilee is another case of extended dominants: D7-G7-C ends the tune. (The other chords before that, in the second ending, don't follow the circle of 5ths).

There are a couple of versions of the story about how these originated: one is that George Gershwin wrote "I Got Rhythm," a tune that was so popular that a thousand popular songs copied (among other parts) the extended dominants of the bridge (written here in the key of C): E7-A7-D7-G7-C. You can see this is almost the same circle of 5ths progression that begins Alabama Jubilee -- A7-D7-G7-C -- but preceded by another extended dominant, E7.

A more plausible (I think) version of the story is that the sound of extended dominants was already deeply imbedded in our musical culture, having been played before Gershwin's time by the ragtime musicians -- among the most popular of the late 19th Century -- and other pre-jazz styles. Most likely Gershwin used this progression in "I Got Rhythm" because it was already so pervasive in American popular music. At any rate, when someone calls "Rhythm Changes," they're talking about an "A" section (not yet discussed here), and a "B" section using extended dominants -- III-VI-II-V-I.

Ted's suggestion is excellent -- practice the "circle of 5ths" progression in several different keys, and you'll have a LOT of vocabulary for playing over tunes -- not just jazz, but swing and some fiddle tunes. Then of course there's the world of Texas fiddle music -- where jazz and fiddling collide!

August W

[sailaway]

well a huge THANK YOU to Ted and August for all of their wonderful help on that Circle of 5ths question. It is 6 am and I am sitting here with the mando and the Cafe board screen, working out those II - IV II V I bridges. It is pretty clear that using your patterns to play when Circle of 5ths is called really puts it in perspective. (think I'll tape that circle on the mando !) This whole thread has been so helpful, you pros have really straightened things out . I have added Ted's chord changes and August's bridge to the daily work outs--- what great suggestions ! Thanks ! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[AlanN]

Very august, August http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mark53]

This is an amazing thread. Very impressed.

Mandolin players seem much more into music theory than guitar players (jazz excluded).

As someone interested in learning to play the mandolin, I find it somewhat intimidating.

I have been playing guitar for 25 years (blues and ragtime, fingerstyle), and worked as a session player for 5 years (on electric bass), back in the 70s . I can read charts but my theory is a bit weak.

At 53 it's hard to start learning the basics again. Should I just jump in , get a mandolin and have fun? Do I really need all the formal stuff at this stage?

[JimD]

Mark,

You can just jump in and have fun but don't be intimidated by theory. It can be a huge help and it is not difficult if it is taught well and in a reasonable sequence.Don't think of it a starting over but rather as a way to clarify and explain things that you already know in a practical way.

Music theory is beautifully logical as well -- that is half the fun of it.

[Mark53]

Jim,

Thanks. You make perfect sense.

I have been thinking of buying a Phoenix Bluegrass mando (as mentioned in a previous thread), the only thing holding me back was the learning curve. But, learning new things is what life is all about.

[August Watters]

Mark,

Like Jim sez, don't hesitate -- just jump in! #It sounds like you already have a strong foundation to build on. Some folks prefer to learn on an intuitive level only -- there's nothing wrong with that, if it works -- but most of us can benefit more by using both halves of our brain, and all the tools available.

I believe that we all know a lot about music, just from listening. it may be on an intuitive level, and you may or may not have the vocabulary to express it -- but #just by living in the world, listening, and participating, you probably understand a lot more than you realize.

As an ear training teacher, much of my job (at first) is just organizing sounds that are already familiar to students. It's as if you have a cabinet full of papers, in no particular order -- how do you find the one you're looking for? Once they're alphabetized and labeled, you'll be able to quickly access the information you already have.

Remember -- the music belongs to YOU, so what are you waiting for?

August W

[duuuude]

Mark53,

Go for it! I didn't pick-up mando until I was 50 and in less than two years I'm having more fun than should be legal learning all kindsa theory & stuff that I never bothered with in 35 years of foolin' around with guitar. You won't believe how easy it'll all come to you!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[JimD]

Another thought about theory and mandolin:

It should be even easier to apply theory to the mando because the tuning is a beautifully consistent series of fifths.

The guitar is tuned mostly in 4ths -- which would be fine if it wasn't that nasty major 3rd between the 3rd and 2nd strings that gums up the sequence. (Actually, once you learn to accomodate that 3rd, it isn't too bad either.)

Anyway, my point is that theoretical contructs as well as musical ideas translate well to the mandolin's tuning and move to other pitch locations without a change of fingering. You get quite a payoff for your efforts.

I hope I am being clear enough -- I just came back from teaching a theory review class to our incoming international students. It's quite exhausting to negotiate the language differences -- the students are from Korea, Taiwan, Japan and the Dominican Republic. Four different languages (and I have no Asian languages and only a smattering of Spanish -- not enough to help.) I do speak some Gaelic... I'll have to speak to the admissions office about better marketing to the Druid and leprechaun communities. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Seriously -- the students are amazing. It's pretty gutsy to come thousands of miles, learn a new language, new customs, sometimes battle prejudices (yes, even at this late date...) -- all of this with their family and support system all back at home.