Joni Mitchell's mandolin

[jim simpson]

Okay, so Joni sung that she was going to Staten Island to buy a mandolin. Did she ever buy one, if so I don't think one has appeared on any recordings. She did record with a lap dulcimer in her earlier years. Just thought I'd ask!

[Jon Hall]

I recall reading that she bought either a mandola or a mandocello from The Mandolin Bro on Staten Island. "Mandolin" probably fit the phrasing. "Mandocello" would probably have to be sung in Italian in order to fit anywhere.

[flairbzzt]

E-mail Stan Jay-he'll tell you. mandolin@mandoweb.com

[mandopete]

Who is Joni Mitchell?

[pathfinder]

Canadian singer-songwriter, originally from Saskatchewan. #Mainstream popularity began in the 1960s when she wrote "Woodstock" song recorded by Crosby, Stills and Nash. #Wrote "Big Yellow Taxi" with the prophetic line "We pave paradise and put up a parking lot". #Did a guest appearance on "The Last Waltz" with The Band.

Had a bunch of other hits. #Talented lady.

[mandopete]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jim simpson]

Thanks Peter!

[Moose]

Ah!!! yes!! Joni Mitchell.... ; used to hear her many times on the.....Grand 'ol Opry... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Jack Roberts]

My analyst told me
That I had gone outta my head
The way he described it
He said Id be better dead
Than 'live
I didn't listen to that jive
I knew all along
That he was all wrong
Though he said I was nuts
No more ifs or ands or buts

[mandopete]

Gee, now I don't think Monroe did it that way!

[Moose]

Can someone tell me where THIS thread is "headed"....? - or, is it at a "deadend'..!!?? - Something about a 60's folkie/hippie "person" who went to Staten Island to buy a mandolin..., or was it a "lap-dulicimer" - What ever happened to Ms. Mitchell..!!?? - I can't stand it no longer...!?### - http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mandopete]

Mr. Moose - why don't you remember when Joni was a member of the Bluegrass Boys? Come on now.............

[Moose]

I thought her name was Bessie Lee "The Carolina Songbird"... Dam###!!nn - Big Mon was tricky.... waddn't he!?? - hee.. hee.. - Evan!!...., do you know anything anout THIS..!!! - Is nothin' sacred anymore### - http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandopete]

Bessie Lee was the chick with the flowers in her hair that can be seen doing the hippie dance behind Jimi Hendrix in the Woodstock movie! # Geez......


(or was that Alvin Lee?)

[Moose]

Did Bill know about THIS!!??# - Does it relate to the "Loar-smashing"....!! - AH!!.. - another "Monroe-ism". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Garrett]

She used to sing in a trio with Hazel Dickens and Alice Gerrard, I think they called themselves the Strange Coyote Singers. Didn't really take off but she has her place in bluegrass history. I think she was married to Jerry McCoury.

[Moose]

Well, if she was married to Jerry McCoury..., she oughta' know at least a few Bluegrass tunes... That would make her Del's sister-in-law!!?? - Ah!! - the plot thickens## - lap-dulicimer..., Bob Marley.., "flower-child" AND possibly "the Carolina Songbird" - pretty eclectic background eh!! ... Keep it comin'..... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mandroid]

last time i saw a bit of video [TV] she had a Parker Fly guitar with just a bridge piezo, sound was not a dry output. lots of EFX offstage or on the board. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

lambert hendricks [was it eddy/or john?, certainly not jimi] and ross come to mind as the first recording of that quoted tune.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif jazz

[evanreilly]

Moose, ole buddy...this topic is worser'n a flat tire....

[pickles]

Yes, "Twisted" was recorded by Lambert, Hendricks & Ross (Annie not Betsy), who also recorded "Sermonette," which "tells you to love one another and feel that each man's your brother; live right, 'cause you know that you reap just what you sow," a sentiment that surely lies within the boundaries of the Monroe doctrine, and naturally that's the Bill Monroe doctrine and not the James Monroe doctrine, since the latter opposed European influence in the Americas, and the mandolin is of course of European descent, and in the days of James Monroe, Canada was still ruled by a European ruler, Queen Elizabeth was a ruler, the Queen Elizabeth was a ship, ships sail the sea, the sea has fish, fish have fins, the Finns fought the Russians, the Russians established military outposts to support their fur trade in Alaska and Canada and as far south as northern California, Joni Mitchell is Canadian, and she went as far south as Staten Island to buy a mandolin but ended up with a mandola or mandocello, and she also sang about hanging out in some cafe, and here we are hanging out at Mandolin Cafe. So, what's your problem with this topic, Evan Reilly? And is it true that you are related to the hero of the folk ballad John Reilly? Because I'm sure we could trace that connection, too!

[fatt-dad]

"Urge for Going" is my favorite early Joni Mitchell Song. I am racking my mind thinking whether she ever had a mandolin in her music - drawing a blank. Joni also recorded "Cloudburst", which I believe is another Lambert Hendricks and Ross tune (o.k. they may have just recorded it earlier).

Intersting thread (to me) as I was into all of this in my pre-mandolin days. There is a place for nostalgia.

fatt-dad

[mandopete]

Yes, but is it really bluegrass ?


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Moose]

Yes..., Evan and mandopete! - I'm outta' here ; RIP Mr. Monroe & Bessie Lee(??)(It's been fun, though.. no harm intended.) - But I must say I've learned much about that "Joni-the-flower-child/hippie-person"... What really ever become of her, anyhow!??... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mandopete]

Okay, so Joni sung that she was going to Staten Island to buy a mandolin. Did she ever buy one, if so I don't think one has appeared on any recordings. She did record with a lap dulcimer in her earlier years. Just thought I'd ask!
As I recall, she bought the Loar that's now listed at Elderly.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[fatt-dad]

O.K. Moose, Are you really out of here? I ask only because you ended with a question, so presumably you are now back into it. I think Joni is doing water colors and smoking 2 packs a day. Something about being disalutioned about performing her songs the same way over and over and not understanding how her fans keep wanting to hear her music. Basically an artist snob in seclusion.

This has nothing to do with the mandolin though, so maybe I'm outta here too. . . . .

f-d

[Moose]

Yup!! - my post was poor ENG 201 - Dam###n!! - I agree... ; let's leave Ms. Mitchell to her paintings and eccentric/frustrated-artist syndrome(s)- "What have they done to my song..." - I think perhaps Richard Wagner had the same socio/psychological "traits" - although I hesitate to speak of Mssr. Wagner in any discussion of Ms. Mitchell's musical and/or artistic abilities - By the way.., not to be "picky' but I believe the correct spelling is "disillusioned" (That's ENG101) hee.. hee.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[pickles]

"Cloudburst" could easily be covered as bluegrass; more easily, I think, than could Messer Wagner's tunes. Many other Joni Mitchell tunes would lend themselves easily to bluegrass interpretation - certainly Big Yellow Taxi (They Paved Paradise) could.
On music vs. painting, Mitchell once said (is it on Miles of Aisles?) that it was cool when fans called out the names of tunes they wanted to hear. She said, "Nobody ever said to Van Gogh, hey, paint A Starry Night again, man!" (I guess Monet never got that.)

[mandough]

Being the Joni Mitchell fan that I am....If you ask artists such as kd lang, Diana Krall, Alison Krause , all of the Lilith Fair clan (Sarah McLachlan, Suzanne Vega, Lisa Loeb, Indigo Girls, blah blah blah), they'd put Joni Mitchell at the top of their list as one of, if not the, best female artists ever. #Her chord structures are incredibly complicated and unique. #The albums to listen to are Blue, Court and Spark, and Heijera. #Increasingly jazz oriented and completely amazing. #
John Mellencamp once said "There is only one true female artist, and that is Joni Mitchell." #I don't think he was talking about her earliest work but the work she did in the middle of her career (just post Woodstock).
If you want to cover a song of hers for Bluegrass or country, #I would recommend "You Turn Me On, I'm A Radio". #Great song. #I could easily see Alison Krause singing that one.

[Michael H Geimer]

" If you want to cover a song of hers for Bluegrass or country, #I would recommend "You Turn Me On, I'm A Radio". #Great song. #I could easily see Alison Krause singing that one. "

Ssshhhhh ... I've been quietly working up that one for a while now.

[jim simpson]

I believe this thread has taken on a life of it's own. I think it will rival the Gibson marketing thread!
I remember getting a song book of Blue years ago and having trouble singing it. I think most males would have the same trouble. She did lose much of her range, a lot due to her smoking, no doubt. She is a treasure!

[mandopete]

I think she could really revitalize her career by doing some sessions with Doc Watson.

[mmukav]

Oh please!!---don't drag poor old Doc in on this lame thread! It is definitely non-bluegrass--non-sensical--and non-mandolin oriented!! And the very verbose 'Pickles', sounds very familiar to me, as someone who showed up on a folk site I frequented in the past! Give it a rest.........

Let's see--Joni Mitchell is to bluegrass as..............

[mandopete]

Let's see--Joni Mitchell is to bluegrass as..............
.......pickles are to ice cream.

[Michael H Geimer]

I'm gonna make my million selling pickled flavored ice cream outside Lamaze classes!

[mmukav]

Benignus---you are a genius! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandopete]

That's rich! LOL!

[Moose]

Well... ; "Stranger Things Have Happened" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[fatt-dad]

Joni recorded Good By Pork Pie Hat, which I love to play on my mandolin.

Moose, I thought you were out of here.

Then again I thought I was too. Couldn't help but see what was keeping this thread alive. . . .

f-d

[Moose]

hee.. hee.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandopete]

Well I guess that since the Brunkzilla thread got killed, we'll just have to enjoy this one.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Professor PT]

Maybe that's it: Joni went to Staten Island the same day GDAE Boy was there with The Brunk. BLUE is a great album, but I agree, her attitude these days leaves something to be desired.

[elenbrandt]

All right you clowns... lay off the Goddess Joni. She has more talent in her elbow than 10 of us combined. If she wants to paint and "court and spark" lung cancer in her off time -- so be it. Light her cigarette boys, she has more than earned the right. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[mandopete]

All right you clowns... lay off the Goddess Joni. #
That's it, I've got!

She needs to join forces with Nickel Creek!!

[Garrett]

Just in case anyone missed it and is getting huffy, the reason why we are all joking around is that this was listed in the bluegrass section. Last time I checked Joni Mitchell was not a bluegrass mucisian, much like Nickel Creek (can't resist), hence the jokes. Get it? All right now.

[mandopete]

Who's getting huffy?

[Garrett]

Not you Pete, I said "just in case".

[jim simpson]

"Pick it like Joni Mitchell" - Tony Rice ... Did he really say that?!!?

[Moose]

Now you guys woke ellen up!###: http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[mandopete]

Okay, I'm gonna take the Moose's advice - I'm outta here!

It's been fun # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[fatt-dad]

Let's get this important post back on topic.



Here (http://www.jmdl.com/glossary/statenisland.cfm) is a web page that describes the current state of knowledge on Joni Mitchell's mandolin. All we need to get know is verification from Joni herself. I may have to try her fan club for more backgrouind.

f-d

[Spruce]

Hey, I'll take this thing back to the beginning... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I just got a 2 CD set of Joni playing at The 2nd Fret in Philadelphia in '66 (way before her first record was released), and it's really a treasure...

She's funny, incredibly entertaining, and musically spot on...
And also almost unrecognizable in her small-girl voice. #It's even higher than the voice that appears on her first LP, much less the later stuff.

Anyway, I hadn't paid those early tunes a visit in a long time, and they hold up just fine...
"Night in the City", "Nathan La Franeer", "Little Green", "Chelsea Morning", etc. etc. are all great tunes and certainly stand another listen, especially in this live context...

She should release this stuff...

[fatt-dad]

Alert!

flip (member at the mandolin cafe since June 2004) has just adopted, "Pick it like Joni Mitchell" - Tony Rice, as his/her signature. This thread is influncing the whole world (slight exageration).

f-d

[pickles]

And the very verbose 'Pickles', sounds very familiar to me, as someone who showed up on a folk site I frequented in the past! Give it a rest.........

Sorry, mmukav, 'tweren't me. #I haven't been on a folk site. #As my posts haven't been the wordiest on this board, I'll interpret "verbose" to mean "articulate," and thank you very much.

While it may have been a mistake to post Joni's Mandolin under "bluegrass," many bluegrass afficianados appear to be Joni fans, and many folks have found the connection not ludicrous. #I would hesitate to insult our bluegrass-centric friends by assuming they've no knowledge of or interest in any other genre, especially with bluegrass recordings of recent decades showing such flexibility. Appears to me as how this-here has become a bluegrass-crossover topic, son. Still, why limit such an interesting discussion by classifying it as "music by genre," if perhaps it could be moved to "General" by the powers that be? Let's let everyone join in the fun!

not sour,
pickles

[Eric F.]

Me, I thought Pickles' earlier post was pure brilliance. And anyhow, one of Joni Mitchell's best albums is called "Blue," and what would bluegrass be without blue? Just grass. So this topic is indeed appropriate to the bluegrass section.

[mmukav]

Sorry son, I must've mistaken you for a different Pickle.
No harm intended. Moving this thread to the Rock, Folk/rock heading would probably be more appropriate. Rock-on, Joni.

[s1m0n]

Let's see--Joni Mitchell is to bluegrass as..............

I dunno who's doing the picking, but someone works through Joni Mitchell's Clouds (Both Sides Now) on guitar at the end of side 6 of the first Will the Circle be Unbroken record.

Although it must be said that it sounds out of place.

[pickles]

Thanks, Eric F.; mmukav. I am brilliant and I'm not some other pickle.

Should the Joni discussion be moved to rock, folk-rock etc., since she's as much a jazz as a folk-rock artist? Anyhow, the thread began as a discussion of her mandolin, and the mandolins of famous people are usually of general interest, so I'd vote to move the thread to the General discussion area. But I have enjoyed the discussion of which pieces would lend themselves to bluegrass covers.

Spruce Bruce, up at the top of page 3 here, you mention having a 2-disc set of '66 Joni. Now that sounds brilliant! I'd love to hear it, but you say, "She should release this stuff...." Is it not available to the general public?

[Garrett]

[quote]#I would hesitate to insult our bluegrass-centric friends by assuming they've no knowledge of or interest in any other genre, especially with bluegrass recordings of recent decades showing such flexibility.
Pickles,

I am touched by your good wishes but clearly you haven't spent enought time around us bluegrassers. Mozart, Charlie Parker, Black Flag, it's all elevator music compared to the sounds of Bill Monroe and Jimmy Martin's guitar. What you call "flexibility" we call musical treason and a crime against the red, white, and BLUE.

You might wish to avoid us in the future.

[Spruce]

"Spruce Bruce, up at the top of page 3 here, you mention having a 2-disc set of '66 Joni. #Now that sounds brilliant! #I'd love to hear it, but you say, "She should release this stuff...." # Is it not available to the general public? "

Nope...

"Mozart, Charlie Parker, Black Flag, it's all elevator music compared to the sounds of Bill Monroe and Jimmy Martin's guitar. What you call "flexibility" we call musical treason and a crime against the red, white, and BLUE.
You might wish to avoid us in the future. "

I've always made a point to do exactly that...

Musical facism, regardless of genre, is something to step over at all costs to avoid getting it on your shoes.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[jim simpson]

Spruce, pickels,
I have seen a couple of these Live Joni Mitchell recordings on cd in a record shop outside of Philly. I took them to be bootlegs, most likely cdr's. At this same shop I purchased a 2 on 1 cd of Steve Millers' that were never released. I thought it was an import. It turned out to be a cdr burned right off of scratchy records that also had static noise. I would think the bootlegs of Joni would at least not have record noise as I would guess they were burned from a taped source. I can't imagine what the sound quality is like (Spruce?).

[Spruce]

Well, there are a lot of nice concert recordings floating around out there these days, recorded in various ways...
It varies (for example) from an incredible Steve Earle with the McCourys show recorded in Sweden off the soundboard (using the 2 AT 4033s on stage) that should be released legitimitely (it's that good), to an audience tape I just got of (again, for example) Jeff Beck in '68 at the Fillmore East that is just an OK recording, but man is Beck burning it up....

In the case of the Joni coffeehouse show, it's off the soundboard and sounds like it was recorded yesterday...
Except, of course, her voice is an octave lower than it is today... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandopete]

I am touched by your good wishes but clearly you haven't spent enought time around us bluegrassers. Mozart, Charlie Parker, Black Flag, it's all elevator music compared to the sounds of Bill Monroe and Jimmy Martin's guitar. What you call "flexibility" we call musical treason and a crime against the red, white, and BLUE.
You might wish to avoid us in the future.

This is some kind of a joke, right?

[Spruce]

No, I don't think it is...

[mandopete]

Hmmmmm, I think we need to avoid Garrett in the future!

[pickles]

Nah, I don't scare that easy. If Garrett wants to believe that bluegrass sprang full-formed from the head of Bill Monroe and is preserved unadulterated, embalmed, enshrined in a glass case in the Capitol building, that's okay with me. He can think what he wants to. Me, I think bluegrass is alive, ever-evolving, and it has a future in the hands of musicians not yet born.

If I were going to avoid Garrett, that would mean having to avoid hanging out here with all of you interesting folks.

Anyhow, yeah, I wish Joni would release bootlegs. My husband has been collecting the Dylan bootleg releases and Joni's melodious voice would counteract oops, did I say that? complement them so well.

[Garrett]

Hmmmmm, I think we need to avoid Garrett in the future!
Of course I was kidding. "Black Flag"? C'mon. I think I've spent most of my time on this message board talking about how great Andy Statman and Jethro Burns are. But it is kind of cool how musical pluralists turn into musical fascists at the drop of a hat. Unless you were kidding as well.

I really do love my blouegrass old fashioned though. And Charlie Parker too.

[chirorehab]

Just had to note that last night I was watching/listening to the Music Choice Bluegrass Channel and under the interesting facts for Claire Lynch it said that Joni Mitchell is one of her influences!

Eric

[fangsdaddy]

black flag is hardly elevator music (unless the elevator is in MY building) & they were pretty great thru the time of "my war". i still dig greg ginn's guitar playing. & henry remains one of the hardest working men in show biz when he's fronting a band & not doing spoken word.
sam

[Garrett]

I love Black Flag too, especially the Dez Cadena Era -- "Louie, Louie".

[mandopete]

Back from the ashes!

WE'RE GONNA HAVE A T.V. PARTY TONIGHT - ALRIGHT!!

[Moose]

Black Flag!.....OOOOHHHH NOOOOO.. I really thought THIS thread was long-gone, along with Ms. Mitchell's mandolin - or whatever it was/is she plays.. I remember listening to her on The Grand 'ol Opry... ; or was that Joan Baez.!!??## Well., carry on.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

[pickles]

Yeah. Stinkin' green-haired punks and their Black Flag Motorhead Sex Pistols Violent Femmes Clash and Joan Baez noise. Would somebody kick these pin-ears out of here and play me some real music, like, say, maybe something by The Knitters?





"All of it is very curious indeed. 'Man of Constant Sorrow' I was singing when I could barely talk. The old songs have been around since I was growing up. I think what is happening is a lot of these new people have never heard them, so they're getting recycled. It feels a lot like in the 70's, when Joan Baez began singing all those songs we grew up with."

Hazel Dickens, as quoted by journalist John Beck, Santa Rosa (CA) Press Democrat, Sunday 26 September 2004

[mandopete]

Yeah. Stinkin' green-haired punks and their Black Flag Motorhead Sex Pistols Violent Femmes Clash and Joan Baez noise.
Maaaan, I wish I'd said that. #

Now can we get back to Joni's mandolin? #I think Bill Monroe summed it up best when he said "...sure beats eating turtle!"

[Michael H Geimer]

" I dunno who's doing the picking, but someone works through Joni Mitchell's Clouds (Both Sides Now) on guitar at the end of side 6 of the first Will the Circle be Unbroken record. "

That would be Earl's kid, Randy Skruggs ... and a fine rendition of that song, I must say.

[Moose]

Hey Benig!!! - That's SCRUGGS - Wouldn't ya' just know it...., a "chip off the ol' block"... - let's see where this thread goes next!?.... - Moose-the-proofreader hee.. hee..) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

[Michael H Geimer]

Ooops. Sorry Randy! Scruggs you are, and poor speler I am.

[fatt-dad]

So, did Joni Mitchell teach Ricky Scaggs how to play the mandolin?

[mandopete]

I always though of Joni as more of a "Don Reno" style banjo player than a pure Scruggs stylist. Just think of what might have happened if Don had been a Bluegrass Boy instead of Earl....Joni would have more than likely gone into atonal jazz!

[mandopete]

So, did Joni Mitchell teach Ricky Scaggs how to play the mandolin?
No, but she has advised him with regards to stage commentary.

[s1m0n]

Our Joanie was just awarded an honourary doctorate in Music from McGill University. I daresay she deserved it a bit more than many.

[mandopete]

Yeah, but can she yodel like Jimmy Martin? # I don't think so.