View Full Version : Ultem Sheet source?
Jim Garber
May-28-2009, 8:16am
Anyone know of a place that will sell relatively small sheets of pick thickness Ultem (or other similar material)? I did find one place that sells large sheets (I think 4'X2') for a few hundred dollars -- much more than I would ever need.
Steve Etter
May-28-2009, 10:15am
Hey Jim,
I did a google search using "Ultem" as my search word and came up with a number of places including these guys (http://www.smallparts.com/b/16414291?ie=UTF8&pf_rd_r=0RV8JERFJ473J5GWB4QR&searchKeywords=ultem%20sheet&pf_rd_p=467030531&pf_rd_i=0&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_m=AIUBT5HP6PMAF&pf_rd_t=301) where you can get 12" x 12" sheets from the $40 range. I even found it like this on Amazon.
Hope this helps.
Steve
Jim Garber
May-28-2009, 10:24am
Thanks, Steve. I started that search but kept on coming up with wholesalers or fabricators. U am looking for .80 mm which I believe is equiv to 1/32" (I must make sure) so it is only $17 or so from that linked supplier. Great!
Bill Snyder
May-28-2009, 11:24am
Nothing wrong with your math, 0.8mm is 1.00787401574816/32. ;) You going to start making picks?
MikeEdgerton
May-28-2009, 11:25am
.8mm is 1.00787401574816/32 ;)
I think he wanted 1/32 but that's pretty close :))
Jim Garber
May-28-2009, 11:46am
I wanted to try making some Roman style picks. 0.8mm is about right.
MikeEdgerton
May-28-2009, 1:25pm
I was lookin at the Ultex rod figuring if you could get it in a large enough diameter you could slice off round picks with the band saw. The largest I saw was 1 inch, not big enough.
Chris Keth
May-28-2009, 1:36pm
I was lookin at the Ultex rod figuring if you could get it in a large enough diameter you could slice off round picks with the band saw. The largest I saw was 1 inch, not big enough.
That should be plenty large. Slice it off at an angle and you'll end up with long ellipses, doing half of the work of shaping them for you!
Jim Garber
May-28-2009, 1:45pm
Hey that is possible -- if I had a bandsaw. I would be working with handtools. I am looking for about 2.5" long by 11/16" at the widest. I think the sheet should work fine. I just wanted to try a little bit so that 12" X 12" would be fine. I wonder what the stuff that is fused with glass is like... not sure if they make that in sheets.
Chris Keth
May-28-2009, 1:46pm
You could cut the rod with a mitrebox and get perfectly precise results.
Jim Garber
May-28-2009, 1:55pm
That would be fine if I wanted multiple thicknesses but 1/32" would be fine and easier to cut with a utility knife. I may order a 1/16" also and sand it down some if it is too thick. I also don't know if that stuff has any grain to it -- could be a problem with the rod. Maybe others might like to try it tho. The price is right.
MikeEdgerton
May-28-2009, 2:28pm
Yeah, I thought about the grain thing. Maybe the rod would be weak if cut across.
brunello97
May-28-2009, 8:29pm
I did a google search using "Ultem" as my search word and came up with a number of places including these guys (http://www.smallparts.com/b/16414291?ie=UTF8&pf_rd_r=0RV8JERFJ473J5GWB4QR&searchKeywords=ultem%20sheet&pf_rd_p=467030531&pf_rd_i=0&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_m=AIUBT5HP6PMAF&pf_rd_t=301) .....
Steve
Pretty great website, Steve. Thanks for the link. Here is a discussion about the Ultem material grain and picks:
http://www.steveclayton.com/blog/?p=6
Mick
buddyellis
May-31-2009, 8:01am
'Best Price' I've found so far (been looking at doing the same sort of thing) is here:
http://plastic-sheets.net/plastic-rods-details.php
They don't have sheet that thin, but I've been looking at the rod stock for picks for about a year, just haven't pulled the trigger.
Mario Proulx
May-31-2009, 8:28am
I believe the material Ultem picks are made from is "Delrin".
Jim Garber
May-31-2009, 8:32am
I ordered 12 X12 sheets of 1/32" and 1/16" thick from smallparts.com already. other places seem to have the .25" thick sheets ... the one mentioned above would cost $53 and would be pretty thick to thin down for a pick.
I am looking to make Roman picks which are double pointed around 2.5" long x 15/16" wide and would not work with a rod even if it were cut on the diagonal. Besides there was some acknowledgement from Steve Clayotn, who make picks from this, that there is some grain in this material and it might not work well that way.
The price is not so bad tho: a 12" piece of rod 3" in diameter costs $10.50. Might be worth it to experiment.
Frankly I would just as soon but a Clayton pick but he doesn't make that shape i am looking for and his custom stuff is only imprinting and colors.
Jim Garber
May-31-2009, 8:35am
I believe the material Ultem picks are made from is "Delrin".
Wikipedia entries:
Ultem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyetherimide)
Delrin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetal_resin)
Ultem does seem to be harder and have more ping when dropped than Delrin. I am no plastics expert tho.
Mario Proulx
May-31-2009, 8:46am
Just checked the Clayton site, and you're right. Some of their other picks are Delrin; that's where I remembered it from. My bad; carry-on! <g>
Jim Garber
May-31-2009, 11:57am
For those interested, this is what the Roman plectra look like:
http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/PlettriRomani.jpg
Primarily for classical and not for every classical player either.
Mario Proulx
May-31-2009, 12:07pm
Now, them's different, all right. These could be done with rod stock, by cutting them on the diagonal, methinks.
Chris Keth
May-31-2009, 6:44pm
Now, them's different, all right. These could be done with rod stock, by cutting them on the diagonal, methinks.
That's exactly what I thought, Mario. Apparently (and I had no idea about this) this plastic has a grain that, presumably, would run lengthwise in a rod and you would cut across the grain and make a very weak pick.
Jim Garber
May-31-2009, 7:51pm
I will let you know what i observe when i get the two sheet I ordered. i am just going by what Steve Clayton mentioned. I assume that he did his homework tho. His picks seem to work pretty well.
brunello97
Jun-01-2009, 10:19am
Any thoughts on how this material might fair using a laser cutter?
Mick
buddyellis
Jun-01-2009, 1:12pm
Being that PEI (Ultem) is an amorphous thermoplastic (http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=83#_Thermoplastic_Characteri stics) I can't imagine that it has much of a grain structure.
That said, if it does, practical experience shows me directionality can't affect the strength too much. I use the triangle clayton picks pretty much universally now, and if there was some sort of 'grain' running north and south through the pick that made it more brittle on the off axis, I've never managed to break one, or notice any tonal difference, when playing on any edge of the triangle and not playing on the supposed 'properly oriented' tip of the pick.
Jim Garber
Jun-01-2009, 3:18pm
I suppose if there were grain and it ran the length of a rod then cutting across the grain would be the weakest way to make these. I can't see grain in my picks either but for me it would still be easier to work with a flat sheet than a rod. YMMV.
I wanted to try making some Roman style picks. 0.8mm is about right.
Let us know how this turns out. I am very interested.
Jim Garber
Jun-01-2009, 5:48pm
Oh, all right... I will keep you posted.
Dick Wade
Jun-02-2009, 4:55am
My dentist gave me a small sheet of the stuff he makes temporary caps with. It comes in a sheet about 5 x 5 inches and is about 1/16 inch thick. It cures in sunlight. I rolled it out with a pastery roller to the thickness I wanted and set the sheet in the sun. The next day I cut the desired pick shape out on the band saw and sanded the picks to a final finish and thickness with 180 to 220 grit sandpaper, and then filed the bevel I prefer and a polish with 0000 steel wool. It makes a very nice pick but you have to polish it to a very fine finish on the bevel or it sounds scratchy. The picks that I make that I like the most are bone. They seem a little bit closer to the sound of that pick material that I really like to use, but feel like and enviromental criminal when I mention it or go on a quest to buy it so I won't even bring it up. Talk to your dentist and try some some of the stuff they use. If nothing else you will have a well wasted afternoon.
Jim Garber
Jun-02-2009, 9:49am
Might it be this stuff?
Acrylic Resins (http://www.free-ed.net/sweethaven/medtech/dental/dentmat/lessonMain.asp?iNum=fra0202)
polymethyl methacrylate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylic_glass)
Dick Wade
Jun-02-2009, 12:36pm
I'm not a chemist. I didn't have to mix this stuff. It came in a small sheet with a wax paper like cover on each side and was sealed in a black plastic wrap. My Dentist cures it with and artifical blue light when he makes a tempotary cap for instant gratification. The Sun takes longer but cures it just the same. The stuff has a shelf life so you may want to check with your dentist for any that is close to expired as he will throw it out. My guy gives it to me when I visit. My Dentist is also a guitar player and is curious about all things with strings and the stuff that goes with them.
swiba
Jun-02-2009, 12:43pm
Jim, if you would like to contact me thru the back channel I might be able to help you out.
I work in one of the largest ULTEM plants in the world.
Jim Garber
Jun-02-2009, 12:56pm
Jim, if you would like to contact me thru the back channel I might be able to help you out.
I work in one of the largest ULTEM plants in the world.
Will do... maybe you can shed some light publicly on ultem in general and the kind of that is made with glass. The latter doesn't seem to be available in sheets and I am not sure what the purpose is but if it were in sheets I would imagine that would be quite fine for picks.
In the meantime, my two 12 inch squares are on their way and I will report back to see what happens with them, assuming I can find the time to work on them.
swiba
Jun-03-2009, 12:46am
[QUOTE=Jim Garber;673634]Will do... maybe you can shed some light publicly on ultem in general and the kind of that is made with glass. The latter doesn't seem to be available in sheets and I am not sure what the purpose is but if it were in sheets I would imagine that would be quite fine for picks.
Sure thing Jim,
Ultem in its raw form is what is produced at my plant with various different so-to say "types". Ultem in its first form as a solid comes in a pellet form and not sheets that everyone is looking for. Once a customer buys said ultem in what ever style they need they then melt or thermoform the pellets into sheets for various applications.
You spoke of Ultem made with glass.....which is basicly ultem with fiberglass added to the resin to add substance. This is sometimes used for things like Firefighter helmets and such applications that require a stronger structure. Ultem is also the substance in tracer rounds for the miltary and many more aplications that some would not even think of .
I think at this time there are around 165 different ultem resin profiles each with a different application.
Here is link to our website that goes into detail with every Ultem resin
https://www.sabic-ip.com/gepapp/Plastics/servlet/ProductsAndServices/Product/series?sltPrdline=Ultem&search=Search#searchresults
I am not trying to be vague on the subject, I am just trying to word myself so that I do not give out trade secrets as I am bound with the old trade secret clause, if you get my drift..........
If anyone has any direct questions they would like answered please ask and I will try to answer them as best I can.
Thanks, Brian
Jim Garber
Jun-03-2009, 5:00am
Ah, that explains. I was thinking of sheet glass. Makes more sense with glass fibers and i would think that makes no sense for pick. No, I am a mere mortal in understanding high industrial plastic fabrication. I will work on my lowly sheets and see if it does anything for my use.
Jim Garber
Jun-20-2009, 11:48am
Just an update. I got my two sheets of Ultem and cut out a Roman style pick shape. I dropped it on my table along with the TS version and the ping they made were pretty similar. I also played with the rough-cut pick and it works pretty well even in its rough-edged form. Now I just have to shape it better with a bevel etc. IThis stuff is pretty hard so I have a feeling that some sort of power tools (Dremel or wheel or belt sander) might help.
Ted Eschliman
Jun-20-2009, 12:26pm
I'm assuming the Dunlop "Ultex" and the Clayton "Ultem" are relatively similar. I know from talking to Dunlop a couple years ago when they were still making the 1.14 in a rounded triangle (426P114), they had major production problems with the picks breaking their cutting equipment because of the material's hardness, especially at that thickness.
Rick Turner
Jun-20-2009, 2:39pm
He lost me with this phrase: "the sound isn’t resignating from the Nylon pick" ...Hunh? Sorry, but I never heard of that word, resignating, and that just throws the whole thing into the questionable zone for me.
Bill Snyder
Jun-20-2009, 3:26pm
Don't you think he means resonating? I do not like misspelled words either (after all I am sure I am never guilty of such a thing :whistling: ) but if you let someone's misspelled words cause you to discount what they write you might loose out on a lot of valuable information.
I am not saying this is necessarily valuable information though.
Rick Turner
Jun-20-2009, 4:29pm
OK, Bill, then I also have a hard time with the implication that the resonance of sound coming off of a pick is an issue. The elasticity of a pick can certainly affect the sound of the instrument, but this is getting a bit too pseudo-scientific for my taste. I agree that the pick affects the sound, but I don't think that resignation or resonance are reasonable explanations. Young's modulus, maybe...
And I hate to admit it, but I still do think tortoise shell makes the best picks I've ever used, not that I do use them these days.