Avoiding Jam stink eye. [Archive]

Jim Garber

May-21-2009, 10:16pm

Well sticking to my guns and playing "Cripple Creek" in the key of A, when they want to do it in the key of G...I don't think is being bullheaded. Who cares what Key a song is played in really. I figure if its your turn to pick a song....the song is yours and you can pick it in any key you want.

Well... sort of. That happened at our old time jam recently. The jam was in D and a few song went by and he started singing one in G. Nobody played along but patiently waited until he was done. He then turned to the musician next to him and asked what was wrong? The guy next to him explained that the banjo players tune to a particular key and to go from D to G would essentially involve retuning the whole instrument. It is the nature of the old time banjo. the guy responded, "what is wrong with those people? They can't play their instruments?"

Generally in that case, people will call for a key change at an old time session. I think understanding the ground rules is importance. Some folks may think that old time musicians are being purists but it is in the nature of how the music is played. In fact, in that session were some of the foremost players in our area.

BTW avoiding the stink eye is understanding those ground rules.

cedarhog

May-21-2009, 10:58pm

Ivan Kelsall

May-21-2009, 11:03pm

Personally - i'd just go along,introduce myself to the guys there & ask them if they'd mind me joining in. I can't see that there's any way that they'd refuse,it is a 'jam' session after all. Just get talking to them & relax into it. Most of all,watch & listen to what / how they play & go along with that,
Ivan

Mike Bunting

May-21-2009, 11:04pm

The guy next to him explained that the banjo players tune to a particular key and to go from D to G would essentially involve retuning the whole instrument. .
That's why I always play in different keys, by the time the banjoplayers retune, the song's over! Banjo players have p.o.ed me enough, I figure it's my turn. :))

allenhopkins

May-21-2009, 11:06pm

Just a timid prediction: go to a jam expecting trouble ("jam stink eye") and chances are you'll find trouble. Go to a jam with a chip on the shoulder -- I'm gonna play it my way, 'cause I have the right to play any way I want -- and the chances of an unsatisfactory experience go up by a factor of ten!

Go to a jam, especially the first time, with a certain reticence, courtesy, willingness to listen and "go with the flow," and then test the waters, see if there's the kind of musicians/repertoire/atmosphere that suit you, and maybe you'll find a group of kindred spirits who appreciate your presence and your contributions. The most important organ of your body, the first time you go to a jam, isn't your larynx or your fingers. It's your ears -- and the part of the brain to which they're connected. You absorb, you process, you decide if "it's for you" or not.

I've gone to jams where I've mainly stood in the background, playing a bit of rhythm and enjoying the music. I've gone to jams where I've taken center stage and led the direction of the music. And I've gone to many jams where I was somewhere in between, contributing but not leading, happy just to be sharing music -- even a style with which I wasn't all that familiar, and wouldn't be playing otherwise -- with musicians of various backgrounds. At the recent New England Folk Festival I jammed with two clarinet players who played Playford dance tunes from sheet music. May never do it again, but it was fun.

cedarhog

May-21-2009, 11:27pm

I think your timid prediction is not what this thread is suppose to be about. There is stink eye given at jams for many different reasons. I have read several different post where people have personally experienced it. Most recently the "capo" thread. Many times without knowing why. If there ARE some ground rules for things lets hear them. If you just want to say someone wanting to avoid the stink eye is going to a jam with a bad attitude and looking for trouble you have missed the boat on this topic completely. I can't remember the last time I kicked in the doors at the grange hall and said everyone we are doing it my way cause its my right. I can sit the first hour out and just listen and watch no problem and have done so.

I know there are perhaps "unspoken" rules to certain jams....well lets not keep them unspoken...speak up. If it applies it will help many that read this thread...if it doesn't they will read on....and check back on new responses.

JeffD

May-21-2009, 11:32pm

Yes that is what I am after the "ground rules" for:

BG jams
Old Timey jams
Celtic jams
Americana jams
Folk jams

I have been to basically the same bluegrass jam and one old timey jam so knowing ground rules for the the different genre jams would be most helpful.

The first ground rule for all of them is to listen, a lot, get the lay of the land and the feeling of the music. Just like you would not break into an existing conversation at a party, listen first.

Some basics I have found

BG jams:

-stay out of the small circle unless you are ready to take a break.
-don't play over someone elses break
-banjo, fiddle, guitar, mandolin, string bass, maybe a dobro, and in some cases an autoharp or mountain dulcimer thats it. Leave the sax home.
-be prepared to play it a their speed, rare in my experience for them to slow down for you, or to enjoy it.

Old Timey:

-more unison playing than taking breaks, per se. Improvisation is very close to the tune, which, BTW, it helps to know. Decorating a tune with double stop harmonies and high lonesome tremolo ok, straying from the tune is not really
-tunes are done in keys for the most part, so everyone plays in G until they run out of tunes, then move to A, etc.
-many repitions
-no chop
-banjo and fiddle rule, but you can expect mandolins, guitars, autoharps in some cases, mountain dulcimer, hammered dulcimer
-tunes can be fast, but often not really too fast

Celtic

-important to know the tunes. Improvisation consists of decorating the existing tune, not spontaneous composition
- chords are more complicated, if you don't know them, don't play them
- dramatic changes in key between tunes more often than not
- mandolin is more of a melody instrument
- my gosh no chop, know the rhythmic difference between a slip jig, a double jig, a reel, a hornpipe, a strathspey, a march, and a slow air.
-tunes often played in sets, three or four tunes played three or four times each, before there is a break. Often everyone but you knows the sets.
-expect some woodwinds, whistles and flutes, a button box accordian and a bohdran or two.
-tunes played pretty fast to very fast

Folk Jam (as I know it)

-more likely to hear lots of singing,
-be prepared to pick a tune, as the right to pick the next tune often goes around the circle
-helps to know a few Grateful Dead, some old country classics, and some folk songs of the 60s and 70s
-cheat the chords off the guitar players, singer carries the melody everyone else does chords
-gentle chopping probably ok
-expect a dumbeck, maybe even a tongue drum.
-nothing too fast

Americana jam

I don't know what kind of jam that would be.

jim_n_virginia

May-21-2009, 11:46pm

I like to seek out new jams Old Time AND Bluegrass all the time. I love the ones way up in the Blueridge Mountain around Galax and Floyd County. It's the real deal out there.

I have found that a little respect goes a long ways at a lot of these jams. Remember a lot of these guys have been playing together sometime 10, 15 20 years! They grew up with each other heck half of them are related to each other. LOL!

I always come in low key and hang back a little, by that I mean when someone asks me if I wanna play a tune I don't start out by playing Brillancy at 240 bps. I take it easy and if I get the nod I'll take a break if not I don't just jump in. I'll play a nice simple tune that I know everyone knows at a moderate speed that I know everyone will be able to keep up.

All of the jams I have attended over the years eventually I befriended most everyone there. I might not be able to do it the first vist, might take 2 or 3 or 5.

Most jams like newcomers if they can contribute. Remember it is a "jam" NOT a time for someone to perform in front of the people there. They won't like the new comer if he comes in like he owns the place or takes the group off balance by playing out of key or playing weird tunes or something like that.

Sounds like you got some picking to do Have fun! :mandosmiley:

Alex Orr

May-22-2009, 12:11am

I've never been to a bluegrass jam where I felt I was "expected" to play a song in a certain key. That being said, I also have learned all my fiddle tunes from the Fiddler's Fakebook and Steve Kaufman's books, both of which probably reflect the key in which the songs are most commonly played. I have definitely been in circle with folks who were way past my skill level and they seemed to have no problem playing basic fiddle tunes in some crazy keys...during those times, I usually sat and listened :redface:

Honestly though, with fiddle tunes, I'm not sure I blame the folks you were playing with. If you decided to play something like Gold Rush in E and no one played along, it might simply have been because you called a "jam buster". It happens. In some ways, it's often not anyone's fault, but in other ways, it's your fault. The etiquette for most every jam I've attended is to either pass or call a song when your turn comes up. If you choose to call a song the polite thing to do is to both call and query a song and key, for example - "How about we play Cripple Creek in A" (which is what it's been played in at every jam I've been) or "Let's do Turkey In The Straw. How does G work for everyone?" If it's just you and someone else who seems alright with that, then perhaps you should either change keys or find a new song. I remember one disastrous time when I called out "Arkansas Traveler" and it was just me and another guy in a group of about ten who knew it. Man, I felt bad. I'm always really self-conscious about calling tunes as it is and that more-or-less kept me quiet the rest of the night:( Another time, a fiddle player called "Ashokan Farewell" and simply launched into it. Sure, we all knew the tune, but only a handful of us could actually play the lead and no one knew the chords. That was sort've a mess.

Singing songs? Basically up to you. Singer usually has the unquestioned right to call the key in which he feels comfortable singing. That being said, if someone has a hard time figuring out where their chords are for D# or something out-of-the-ordinary, then you shouldn't hold it against them.

I've never been to an OT jam, but they do seem to have their own sets of rules. The chop thing seems to be the biggest issue for mandolin players. I've heard they're not too fond of flatpicking either - guitar is supposed to be for rhythm not flashy lead playing, sort've like Bill felt :crying: Honestly, I'm not too sure I have an issue with the chop. I don't play OT but I suppose the folks who are really into it have some set ideas as to what constitutes the genre they want to play and screwing with that genre is not what a genre-specific jam is about. Of course it probably depends somewhat on the people playing.

These seem like generally good rules:
http://www.haruteq.com/jam.htm

Let me seriously emphasize the rule about "playing quietly" when a lower volumed instrument (or someone next to you) is taking a break. The only times I've seen some bad blood seep up at the regular jam I used to attend was when one guy was playing over someone, either bashing out the chords or simply playing a lead break (loudly) over the top of the guy whose turn it was to play the break. Those two things can really, really be annoying. I recall one time we had a dobro guy sitting in who played loud as a jet engine and would just noodle lead breaks on top of everyone. Sure, he was a fantastic dobro picker, but he was being a complete jerk in the setting of the open jam and he was told politely the first time (and then rather angrily the next few times) by the jam leader to lay off when it's someone else's turn to take a break.

yoshka

May-22-2009, 12:42am

JeffD, Thanks for the straightforward rules.
Yossi

allenhopkins

May-22-2009, 1:22am

I think "getting pissed," "being more stubborn then they are," and "who cares what key a song is played in really...the song is yours and you can pick it in any key you want" are what I'm suggesting one might want to avoid, if one wants to have a good jam experience, make some musical friends, and be open to new ideas and types of music. "Learning the rules" for different types of jams surely can be helpful, but generalizations are only part of the equation. Anyone with some musical talent and experience can generally pick up the "ground rules" for a particular jam -- if that person can keep open ears, an open mind, and a positive, supportive attitude.

IMHO, the major "rule" for successful jamming, is the Golden one: play with others as you'd like them to play with you. Not that I've always practiced it -- but when I haven't, I've probably deserved any "stinky eye" that I received.

swampstomper

May-22-2009, 1:35am

Good thread, maybe I can contribute a bit. Back to the OP (great avatar BTW, I'm sure I'll recognize you if we ever jam togther ...), did *you* feel that your BG chop chords sounded good in the context, or were you just playing them because that's what you know how to play? If the first, it seems the others were closed-minded, but if the second, maybe the "stink eye" was because you didn't fit the music. When I visit the USA I try to get in as many jams as possible, which leads me to some real "Folkie" types and a so-called "BG" jam that is actually old country songs sung by people whose chord repertoire stretches to 3 on occasion. I try to fit in -- it's their jam, that's the key for me. Love it or leave it. So in the folkie or old-time jams I will not chop, I will strum or play a unison melody. After I get to know them I may try a harmony line or some passing chords [think -- Texas-style]. When it's my turn for a tune I pick one I know they can play and in a conventional key. I will not call out Old Daingerfield (more's the pity for them!) but St. Anne's Reel. Then I do approach the tune in more my style.

(As a side note -- talk about stink eye -- whether St. Anne' Reel has an Em or G or one of each as the 2nd chord of the B part leads to jam schism -- opinions are pretty strong on that...)

One thing that I sometimes do, if the jam is big and I can see there are other players more to my liking, is to suggest a split for a while -- maybe another mando player and I, with a guitar player, want to swap Mon tunes, we go outside or to another room.

HTH, jams can be frustrating but it's really good to play with other musicians, especially good ones, in any style.

Mike Bromley

May-22-2009, 2:10am

I'm a big fan of minimalism....I lay out rather than duplicate someone else's part. If someone nods me a solo, then I play. I might do some light accent chopping, but tend to contribute only when it's my "turn".

If stink eye becomes a regular occurrence, then it's time to jam elsewhere.:cool:

people whose chord repertoire stretches to 3 on occasion.

Hey! I like "Take Me Back to Tulsa"!!

AlanN

May-22-2009, 5:44am

We all like what we like. JeffD's run-down on what the various forums 'allow/stress' is pretty much it. The playing in unison/one key for a long time/tunes go on and on thing is what turns me off from old timey jams. OTOH, bg jams which fall into everything fast, in B, one solo and you're done also turns me off.

Jim Garber

May-22-2009, 6:52am

I think Jeff's listing of the ground rules works for the most part but as others have noted, listening is most important. Plus those are more general rules. If you are interested in participating in a particular jam, why not show up early and ask those question directly to the organizers of the jam. You can ask about details here forever, but it may not be the same for the jam you want to play in.

Some jams are looser than others. Our monthly old time jam has included concertina players, flutes, cellos, guitar banjos, cloggers, etc. as well as the usual fiddles, banjos, guitars.

I have been playing old time music for over 30 years and never knew that people would get pissed off for chopping on a mandolin. I suppose if you did in the ear of one of the lead fiddlers it could be annoying but light chopping or chording would be tolerated in most jams I have been involved in. I also can't imagine that a mandolin showing up with a capo would be shunned. That is more the attitude within the mandolin playing community. that would not affect the general quality of the music, nor would retuning the mandolin to guitar tuning.

D C Blood

May-22-2009, 7:39am

In my experience, bluegrass jammers are a lot more tolerant of old-time pickers than the other way around...

250sc

May-22-2009, 7:44am

It is a socal encounter and no rules will apply to all situations. Pay attention, listen, be friendly and fit in. If you don't like the music or people don't go back, but look for people with like interests and get their phone numbers. Invite them over for some picking, salmon dinner and beverage of choice.

Cape Cod Struggler

May-22-2009, 7:46am

All of these are great suggestions. But the best one I can make is: First time jamming is not unlike fly fishing - "Read the waters before you make a cast".

If you sit back and watch how the water flows, see where the eddies are and observe when the "big fish" are rising; you may come home with your limit and your creel full of good times.

I've been playing at Traditional Irish sessions for about a year now. Each session is different. I've found it best to sit outside the circle and play softly until I get the lay of the land.

farmerjones

May-22-2009, 8:27am

Even if the jam is posted as open to the public, i won't get it out until invited.
If the invitation never comes, so be it.

There can be a bit of insurance in an invitation. Like with an employer: Did you ask for the job, or did the employer ask you?

Back at the jam, if for some reason you trip, your sponsor(s) are more likely to help. Unless they invited you in just to snowball you. Then you've learned about that too.

There are learning jams with a leader, but generally jams are not classrooms. I suppose with the popularity of acoustic music, there are more workshop jams. Some of these never have graduates. Whatever. It's all good.

People just gravitate. With a little bit of time & effort, folks seem to congregate to their preferences. There's a jam out there with all your buddies, playing what y'all like. Find it or make it, it ain't rocket science.

John Flynn

May-22-2009, 8:50am

This has been said, but I'll add my own spin. I think it's important to think of jams as being as much social as they are musical. It's about fellowship among musicians. An analogy is if you went to a party and behaved in a way that was out of line with the norms of the group, you would expect to get some disparaging looks. A jam is no different.

Also, while I agree with most of the general rules that people have posted, my experience is that local rules are as important as general rules. So general rules are more like a baseline or "starter set." But I don't think you can take a set of rules you get from a website and go to a jam and take that attitude that, "Well, these are the accepted rules for old-time jams and this jam is listed as an old-time jam, so this is the way it's supposed to be." You have to ease in to every group, both musically and socially.

CES

May-22-2009, 9:11am

[QUOTE=John Flynn;669677] An analogy is if you went to a party and behaved in a way that was out of line with the norms of the group, you would expect to get some disparaging looks. QUOTE]

"Blame it all on my roots, I showed up in boots, and ruined your black tie affair."

Still one of my alltime favorite country lines, as I've rocked the boots in a tux before...looked darn good, felt better than those plastic shoes, and since the groom was wearing them, too, it kind of made everyone else feel out of place...:grin:

BUT, I totally agree with you, John, and the other posts regarding your approach. The best thing to do is get there a little early, introduce yourself as someone who's maybe new to the style but wants to learn, and receive advice as offered. Next best thing is to observe for a while and jump in when you've got it figured out.

And, if the groom hadn't wanted to do the boots, I wouldn't have worn them :mandosmiley:

:mandosmiley:

Chuck Naill

May-22-2009, 9:40am

did *you* feel that your BG chop chords sounded good in the context, or were you just playing them because that's what you know how to play? If the first, it seems the others were closed-minded, but if the second, maybe the "stink eye" was because you didn't fit the music

This was my thought. You have a clawhammer keeping time and the mandolin chop in my opinion would not work. There is however a way to strum the mandolin that I learned from Norman Blake that is not as harsh as the chop and blends more easily.

Jim MacDaniel

May-22-2009, 9:40am

Whenever I think I'm getting the stink-eye from someone, I think of this line from Juno and then laugh:

"I doubt she gave you the stink-eye. That's just the way her face looks... That's just her face."

lgc

May-22-2009, 9:57am

It seems completely backwards to give a stink-eye at a jam because a tune is called in a given or off key. If someone hasn't put the time in to learn their instrument or is too lazy to retune their instrument then they should keep their self-loathing stink-eyes to themselves. Not even trying to play with someone at a jam is more disrespectful than just about anything else-even chopping in OT. No matter what tuning one is in, rhythm can always be played. Jams are a place for learning and stinkeyes just ain't productive.

cedarhog

May-22-2009, 10:25am

Regarding my mandolin chops at the OT jam, I thought they were soft and added to the whole sound of the jam. It was in a hundred year old grange hall with wooden floors and the floor was moving from the jam and the feet keeping time so I don't think my little chops were stink eye worthy. Plus I guess I was more impressed with my ability to catch on to songs I had never heard before it had gone around once. So I went home after loving the jam to find out a week later I was actually not suppose to chop...then I just felt stupid. I love playing open chords so I'm looking forward to an OT jam again so I can actually play them and let them ring.

I would never do anything to take away from a jam on purpose. I'm a big guy but I am still a little shy when I come to a jam and see 20+ people with some carrying several different instruments and they all know each other. I guess I have more patience with players that are less skilled then me. I enjoy that they are going for it, and if they miss and throw the circles timing off for a second I don't think that is a big deal. The rest of the circle is good enough to get the rhythm back on track fast. That beginner/adv beginner is gonna want to get better and practice more in a setting like that. I guess I just don't believe in the stink eye, unless someone is playing the wrong genre when its there time to pick a song or they are a noodling freak through the whole song.

Jams where you can push your abilities and take risks without the risk of stink eye is the jams I will be hunting for this summer. And I'm curious to what I will end up enjoying the most.:mandosmiley:

Jean Fugal

May-22-2009, 11:04am

I didn't write this but I wish I had. What to play? Depends on the situation. What works today may not work next time.

"As to what makes the magic, I think it's when synergy emerges from the
combined efforts of those who are participating, and the whole becomes
greater than the sum of its parts. Somehow the jam finally gets in tune and
on time, and people are playing better breaks than they even knew they could
because the're getting the right kind of support; they're hearing what the
other players are trying to do, and making sure that they give it the best
context they can, i.e., doing group dynamics right and letting the others
hear what they need to hear. It's really thrilling when the bugs in the
music just vanish, and people are playing as well as they really can, and
saying what they have to say, musically speaking. Once a musician
experiences this, as I have, it seems as if nothing will keep him from
searching for more of the same."

journeybear

May-22-2009, 11:05am

This may not be necessary - a lot of these issues have been covered already - but here they are collected in a somewhat humorous form. Such niceties abound on the interweb. This particular version is from The Conecticut Bluegrass Music Association. http://www.ctbluegrass.org/jamrules.htm

Copy - print - frame - take to heart - keep in mind

Remember - common courtesy goes a long way in these situations.

The Ten Commandments of Jamming
(with a few apologies to the Old Testament)

I Thou shalt not come to the jam to impresseth others with thine own talent for this is an abomination. The music shall be the star around which all musicians rotateth and not viceth-verseth! Attempts to make thine own star shine, shall surely lead thee into darkness!

II Thou shalt not forsake the beat. Thou shalt not speed up nor slow down accidentally when playing a tune for this shall be considered an abomination.

III Thou shalt arrange thyself in a small circle so that thou mayest see and mayest hear all the other musicians. Thou shalt listen with thine ears to the songs and shall attempt to play in one accord with the group. Also, thou shalt lift up thine eyes to look about thee, lest there be some visual sign that someone endeavoureth to render unto thee.

IV Thou shalt play softly when someone lifteth his voice in song, when the guitar taketh a break, and when thou knowest not what thou art doing.

V Thou shalt play in tune! Tune thine instrument well and tune it often with thine electric tuner lest the sound that emanateth from thine instrument be unclean!

VI Thou shalt commence and cease playing each tune as one, so that the noise you make be a joyful noise and is not an abomination. Whensoever a musician sticketh forth his foot, as though he were afflicted with a cramp in the fatted calf, thou must complete the rest of that verse and then cease. Thou shalt stick out thine own foot or else lift up thy voice, crying, "This is it!" or "Last time!" if thou hast been the one to begin the song and it hath been played sufficient times over. If the one who beginneth a tune, endeth it not by one of these signs, then the music goeth on in repetitious fashion until the listeners shall say, "Hark, it all soundeth the same!"

VII Thou shalt concentrate and shalt not confound the music by mixing up the "A" part with the "B" part. Most songs, but not all, proceedeth by the ancient law: "AABB". But, if thou sinneth in this regard or make any mistake that is unclean, thou mayest atone not by stopping, nay, but by reentering the song at the proper place and playing on. Thy fellow musicians will support thee in this regard.

VIII Thou shalt be ever mindful of the key that the banjo is tuned in, and shall play many tunes in that key, for the banjo is but a lowly instrument and must needfully be retuned every time there is a key change.

IX Thou shalt speak gentle words of encouragement to those nourished on the milk of bluegrass music, but not the meat, lest a harsh word turn one again to the darkness that is pop music.

X Thou shalt not, by thyself, commence noodling off on a tune that the other musicians knoweth not, unless asked or unless thou art teaching that tune for this is an abomination, and the other musicians shall not hold thee blameless, and shall strike thee from their computer lists, yea, unto the third and fourth generation.

- Author Unknown

Some tips in plain English (from one of Peter Wernick's most excellent music books)

More Etiquette Stuff...

* Some key participants may have main influence over the choice of songs and who gets to do what. Be respectful of the situation. Fit in as invited.

* Instrumentalists, be mindful of when others want to solo or do featured backup. Give them space and take turns being featured. Don't compete!

* Regarding tuning: Wait your turn. If someone is tuning, avoid any playing, or perhaps (if you're sure your instrument is in tune) offer notes matching the open strings of the other person's instrument.

* In more advanced jams, often the "classic" arrangement of a particular number is followed, including choice of key, which instrument solos when, harmony parts, etc. However, if the classic version is in a key that doesn't work well for the lead singer, the singer calls the key and the others adapt.

* If you don't fit into one jam, look for another or start another, or just stay and listen. (Note if there are already enough of your instrument in the group, or if the speed or difficulty of the material is out of your league.) In some situations it's OK to play quietly in an "outer circle", not trying to be heard in the inner circle.

Pay attention and learn from experience!
__________________

journeybear

May-22-2009, 11:06am

And in a more light-hearted vein, there's also this, sent to me by a swing/jazz bass-playing friend. Much is tongue-in-cheek; much is applicable to all music genres.

1. Everyone should play the same piece.

2. Observe the repeat signs only if what you just played was interesting.

3. If you play a wrong note, glare at one of the other players.

4. The right note, at the wrong time, is a wrong note. (And vice-versa.)

5. A wrong note, played timidly, is a wrong note.

6. A wrong note, played with authority, is simply your interpretation of the phrase.

7. If everyone gets lost except you, follow the ones who are lost.

8. Strive always to play the maximum notes per second. This will intimidate the weaker players and gain you the admiration of the ignorant.

9. Markings for slurs, dynamics, and accidentals should be completely ignored. They are only there to make the score look more complicated.

10. If a passage is difficult, slow down. If it is easy, speed up. Everything will even itself out in the end.

11. You have achieved a true interpretation when, in the end, you have not played one note of the original piece.

12. When everyone else stops playing, you should stop also. Do not play any notes you may have left over.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Just a few comments:

3. [If you play a wrong note, glare at one of the other players.] Absolutely!

4. [The right note, at the wrong time, is a wrong note. (And vice-versa.)] Not sure which vice is being versa'd. After all, the wrong note at the right time is a right note. It's jazz, after all.

5. [A wrong note, played timidly, is a wrong note.] Even a right one - it will sound like a mistake, even though it isn't.

6. [A wrong note, played with authority, is simply your interpretation of the phrase.] That's right - YOU know better than anyone else what the composer wanted there.

7. [If everyone gets lost except you, follow the ones who are lost.] This is an actual good piece of advice. The lost ones probably don't know they are lost, but since they are playing together, you have to join them Playing the right note at that time would be wrong.

12. [When everyone else stops playing, you should stop also. Do not play any notes you may have left over.] That's right. Save them for the next number, you may find room for them there.

Oh, and:

11. [You have achieved a true interpretation when, in the end, you have not played one note of the original piece.] This is my favorite! Somewhere in my collection of collaborations between Benny Goodman and Charlie Christian there is a wonderful version of "Tea For Two," in which they play the opening measure ("Picture you upon my knee") as written, and then take off, and never do get back to the melody. They don't even get to the third chord. I guess they REALLY knew how the song went.

Jean Fugal

May-22-2009, 11:28am

Hog, Come to the Scio jam tonite, and come back to the "Old Time" Trust me, you were not getting the "stink eye" for chopping at the Grange.

I have been at that jam when we "couldn't carry the tune or rhythm in a bucket" and other times when it was ethereal.

As to the "Key" thing, it isn't just an arbitrary situation. Some songs are in a Key because that is where they "lie" best on the fingerboard for the fiddle player. (mandolin) Some fiddlers tune AEAE
and don't want to retune every song, Banjos need to be retuned for each key change. New Camptown Races was written in Bb for a reason, not just to make it harder to play.

The Vocalist Rules, BUT, I personally don't know more than a couple tunes I can't shift one way or the other 1 whole step in order to accommodate the others in the jam.

He who calls the tune gets to make the rule but being unflexible insures that before long you will be calling to an empty room.

Randi Gormley

May-22-2009, 2:12pm

If I can add to JeffD's post on the Irish bit. If you're used to BG or OT, you may be nonplussed at the Irish sessions. I don't know whether there are more purists at the Irish end of the scale, but they seem a whole lot less tolerant of some of the standard behaviors in the other jams, including insistence on proper use of the terminology (!). They're not jams, they're sessions; they're not songs unless you are singing them (with words), they're tunes. Nobody solos or takes breaks and mandolins don't chop and usually don't chord (lots of cross picking, though) -- everybody plays the same tune at the same time. Melody is king; backup is considered a percussion function and is relegated to the status of pariah, generally. The life in Irish music is the lift that's played as part of the internal rhythm, so any straight, regular rhythm-making can drag down a good set. Add the word "hup" to the sounds used to denote a change of tune. Much has been written about what constitutes a list of tunes to know/practice/learn that will allow you to play along when attempting a first Irish session, and usually nobody knows since every session differs (hence the suggestion to listen the first visit before attempting to join in. For someone traveling 40 miles to play, that isn't necessarily feasible, of course, but it's part of the usual list of session etiquette the purists will give you). When someone is calling a set, they'll usually give the entire list at one time and you're expected to remember it and know the key it's usually played in (the Coleman set might be called, for instance, and you're expected to know it's Tarbolton, Longford Collector and Sailor's Bonnet) or someone will say Banish Misfortune into Cliffs of Moher and when that's played, someone else might suddenly start playing Ten Penny Bit and when that's played three times someone else may begin, say, Father O'Flynn. it'll keep on going like that for a while with sessionistas hearing the first few bars and then jumping in. In that instance, etiquette usually says the new-comer doesn't start a tune in the middle of a run. There's also the likelihood of alcohol being served/consumed because of the venue, so if there are objections to that, it's better to know going in.

JeffD

May-22-2009, 2:36pm

In my experience, bluegrass jammers are a lot more tolerant of old-time pickers than the other way around...

Well we all have our experiences. If I were to generalize from my personal experience, it would go the other way around. From my perspective the bluegrass sound is well defined and the boarders well defended, while OT can take lots of forms, with fuzzy boarders and nobody defending the orthodoxy.

Truth is, its dangerous to generalize too much. There is more than enough stink eye to go around.

Like the kids say - be like the bunny, with big ears and little mouth, timid and always listening, not like the alligator, aggressive, all mouth and no ears - and you will do fine in every kind of jam, and be forgiven your egregious errors.

JeffD

May-22-2009, 2:44pm

If I can add to JeffD's post on the Irish bit. .

I would agree entirely. Especially the part about the internal logic of the tune giving the lift, rather than strictly the rhythm. Some Irish tunes just open up like a flower, or like the sun coming up, and by the time the A part is done you so want the B part to wash over you. To have a heavy handed metronomic backup at that point can hurt things.

Gutbucket

May-22-2009, 3:01pm

CES

May-22-2009, 3:04pm

Hog,

BTW, I think it's a good thing you're trying to figure this stuff out...I have very limited experience (as I have very limited chops), but in general I think musicians tend to be an accepting lot. We're all a little bit weirdo, and we've all been beginners at some point. Except maybe Thile. He may have started young enough that he can't remember being a beginner...

I'm still very shy about playing with people I know can really play, but every time I've done it I've left with a ton of motivation to get better and had a blast. I recognize my limitations and for the most part play within them, and I try very hard to defer to the more experienced players...one of my goals for this year is to get to a point where I can take a few more risks (without screwing things up)...

JeffD

May-22-2009, 3:04pm

The chop thing seems to be the biggest issue for mandolin players. .

Mandolin playing chords, and perhaps emphasizing the up beat, thats not a chop. The clipped, percussive, up beat only chop, which drives bluegrass, thats what we are talking about.

I am going to vent a little, so please forgive me in advance. :mad:

I am surprized when a mandolin player is surpized that a chop is less than appropriate in some types of music. The chop is a bluegrass thing, it became a bluegrass thing when bluegrass was invented. It is not a mandolin thing. There is nothing about the mandolin itself that requires it be played that way. (Unlike tremolo, which is a mandolin thing, even though other instruments can do it, its what the mandolin does.) Folks played mandolin for hundreds of years with nary a chop. A good rule of thumb, if your not playing bluegrass, don't chop.

Another little vent if you will indulge me. Improvization. I am surprized when a mandolin player, or any musician, is surprized that improvisation is less than appropriate in some types of music. Its key to bluegrass, of course, and jazz, and blues, etc. But its not universal by any means. By improvisation I mean leaving the tune. Decorating the tune is not improvisation.

Some folks love it and see it as the core of what music is about. Others see no reason for spontaneous unrehursed musical composition without an eraser in public.

I am a tune guy. I love a great tune, like I love a great joke, or a great story. So when someone is going to play a tune, play the tune. If you think you can play something better than the tune, work it out in the wood shed, give it a fun name, and teach me your new tune. But please don't show me how bluesey and modern you can play Rocky Road to Dublin, or March of St. Timothy, or Seneca Square Dance.

Thats me. And when I am called on to improvise, I manage OK, I just play the tune perhaps more heavily decorated than not.

But check the genre of music, and if the order of the day is Italian waltzes of the 20s and 30s, or sea shanties, I would not suggest improvising.

OK Ill back off my rant now. Thanks for listening.

Im gonna get killed now.:(:grin: :popcorn:

catmandu2

May-22-2009, 3:08pm

... jams as being as much social as they are musical...

This is the key factor: any gathering is a social event and subject to certain etiquette and expectations.

One way to remedy this whole situation, cedarhog, is to acquire an octave madolin, which will render your "chop" irrelevant and you'll be fitting right in..

(...see you down in the CBOM pages ;))

catmandu2

May-22-2009, 3:15pm

I am surprized when a mandolin player is surpized that a chop is less than appropriate in some types of music. The chop is a bluegrass thing...(:grin: :popcorn:

Quite. Chopping on the 2 and 4 on a a good carved-top mandolin is like a snare drum. There are many, many musical styles and playing envrionments where a snare drum is not going to enhance the music, old-time or not.

journeybear

May-22-2009, 3:41pm

Quite. Chopping on the 2 and 4 on a a good carved-top mandolin is like a snare drum.

I dunno ... It really shouldn't be such a big deal, as long as you're not doing it that loud. I mean, you need to have a rhythmic component, but you also have to fit in. What else are you going to do, play on the 1 and 3? That's the role for the bass and guitar. Seems to me the main thing is playing your instrument as part of the whole, one piece in an ensemble.

As to which players are snootier, bluegrass or old-timey, I'd have to say - purists. :)) But I think old-timey players get a little obsessed with keeping the music in some kind of time capsule, with little tolerance for any mdernization or variance. That's just what I've encountered, though, and I've run into problems with strict bluegrass traditionalists too.

I will say, though, that I did get asked NOT to come to the annual Civil War reenactors weekend Saturday night dance this year, specifically because of my lack of devotion to old-timey music. I'd done this a couple of years running, have a costume, know the players, work with a couple of them, know a lot of the tunes, enjoy the event, don't mind playing for free (well, just for the camp stew), appreciate the opportunity to play old-timey music one weekend out of the year - AHA! That's the problem. I wasn't serious enough about old-timey music. Hey, I'm trying to have as well-rounded a mandolin experience as I can, and I'm not going to limit myself to one genre, but I didn't like being excluded from my one chance to venture into this genre. Playing Mendelssohn's Wedding March last year while Abraham Lincoln presided over two couples renewing their vows was one of the sweetest surprises of my entire musical "career," and wouldn't have happened if I hadn't suggested it.

I just get a little intolerant about intolerance, that's all. :mad:

jim_n_virginia

May-22-2009, 4:16pm

I think some of you people are mistaking jam RULES for jam ETIQETTE, there is a distinction you know.

These are the jam "rules" for Bucket's jam he ran at Elliott's and for the most part this was one of the most smoothly run jams I went to.

Tripp Johnson also runs a tight ship at the Cary Street Jam in Richmond and also very, very fun.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elliott's Jam Rules
Turns & breaks go around clockwise; you have the option to play, pass or make a request

S/he who starts the song is responsible for ending it. Signal the ending with a raised foot.

Call the key to the song before you play

Whoever starts the song sets the pace, don't speed up

Be in tune and don't play when someone is tuning

Keep the music going; don't talk so much that the jam up is held up.

Back off a little when someone is taking a break (if you can’t hear the lead instrument or singer then you are playing too loudly)

Unless it is your turn, sing only on the chorus--not the verses

JeffD

May-22-2009, 4:24pm

"I dunno ... It really shouldn't be such a big deal, as long as you're not doing it that loud. I mean, you need to have a rhythmic component, but you also have to fit in. What else are you going to do, play on the 1 and 3? "

Well what about a waltz. What about a roaring slip jig, which is in 9/8. What about some wonderful old Greek tune that is also in 9/8 but an entirely different 9/8.

"Seems to me the main thing is playing your instrument as part of the whole, one piece in an ensemble.:

On that we can agree entirely. :grin:

JeffD

May-22-2009, 4:28pm

As to which players are snootier, bluegrass or old-timey, I'd have to say - purists. :)) :

:)) Amen

cheesecutter

May-22-2009, 5:17pm

Well Hogger its quite apparent that you have gotten the advise or opinions you may have been lookin for.

I'll decline my opinion only to say the Stinker Eye reaction to the Hog and I was only made by 1 person at the said Jam and that jam is a goodin.

catmandu2

May-22-2009, 5:22pm

I dunno ... It really shouldn't be such a big deal, as long as you're not doing it that loud. I mean, you need to have a rhythmic component, but you also have to fit in.

As a gigging drummer along with my other ventures, I've sat in with some bands--who didn't employ a drummer--with a snare drum and a pair of brushes. In the words of one player once, I "made more music with a snare drum than the rest of the band.." (albeit, that wasn't a particularly stellar night for that band :whistling:)... which speaks to what can be done with only a snare drum (or mandolin, for the matter) without playing only a 2/4 chop. Of course, a snare drum (and/or mandolin) CAN enhance many, many musical styles and playing environments. However, this does not obviate my previous, converse remark, either..~o)

journeybear

May-22-2009, 8:45pm

Elliott's Jam Rules

I think these pretty much cover it. Straightforward, understandable, common sense. Thanks! :mandosmiley:

sunburst

May-22-2009, 8:58pm

"IV Thou shalt play softly when someone lifteth his voice in song, when the guitar taketh a break, and when thou knowest not what thou art doing."

My favorite! :)

mandroid

May-22-2009, 11:21pm

allenhopkins

May-22-2009, 11:33pm

:(I've never been to an "Old Time " jam, and the more I hear about the goings on at them, the more I don't really want to go. Are they all that strict and run with an iron hand? It almost sounds a bit snobbish. I hope that isn't the case.

Not the case universally. What bluegrass mandolinists have to realize about old-timey jams, is that, unless there's a mixture of songs -- and there often isn't -- we're talking fiddle-led dance tunes. Old-timey tunes go on for sometimes dozens of repetitions, with a consistent fiddle lead, (generally) clawhammer banjo, open-chord guitar. What does the mandolin do? (A) Play the melody along with the fiddle, or (B) play open-string rhythm, sometimes a "running" figure with up-and-down pick strokes, sometimes off-beats but not the closed-chord "chop" characteristic of bluegrass, or (C) improvise a bit of harmony around the melody, but not enough to distract from the fiddle lead. There's almost a "trance" feeling sometimes, with the tune repeated over and over, and each musician almost in his/her little world playing along.

I've found open and accepting old-timey jams, where mandolins (and Autoharps, and harmonicas) were welcome, as long as they played old-time music along with the fiddlers. As mentioned above, long stretches of old-timey jams tend to be in one key, since the banjo players have to retune and re-capo if the jam changes keys. Most everything is in D, G or A, but there are different modes and cross-tunings that can make chording adventurous; helps to have a good ear for unusual changes. Timing, too, can be non-standard, with extra measures or extra beats. The simplicity and repetitiveness can be misleading; some pretty sophisticated things happening under the surface.

To sum up, I don't think old-timey jams are any more strict or controlled than any other type. They're different, but can be just as enjoyable a social and musical experience.

mandolirius

May-23-2009, 2:27am

To sum up, I don't think old-timey jams are any more strict or controlled than any other type. They're different, but can be just as enjoyable a social and musical experience.

All I could add is to say that old-time music is actually rather delicate. There are often chord changes in unusual places. It's not a regular a rhythm as bluegrass. There's something about the rhythm groove that is almost implied with a banjo in open tuning backing up the fiddle. There's lots of ways to slip into that rhythm feel. I've been learning a lot from sitting beside the banjo
player(s), trying to mimic what they do on the mandolin. And it is all about the fiddle :)

Gutbucket

May-23-2009, 7:29am

It does kind of sound interesting. I wouldn't mind going as a listener first, before joining in. It wouldn't make much sense showing up at any type of jam without some knowledge of the music style.

Mike Bromley

May-23-2009, 7:42am

Im gonna get killed now.:(:grin: :popcorn:

Nope!

A strathspey ain't a breakdown, bubba. And with the Celtic aspect, "tune precision" is very important in the "fingerprint" of a given tune. I like bluegrass, but kinna stand a bodhran in "New Camptown Races", any more than you can stand a chop in cut time.

You remain alive, and may you thrive!

:grin::mandosmiley:

Dave Schimming

May-23-2009, 8:39am

I'm guessing the various jam rules & commandments are effective for those that are already considerate and not a problem. Not sure they are effective for those that don't believe or realize they are a problem in a jam. I did like the Elliott's Rules list.

ChrisStewart

May-23-2009, 9:51am

It seems to me the key is to blend in whatever is being played. If a group is not used to hearing a chop than they may just think you have no since of timing and it may give them trouble staying on the beat.

I have known a few guitar players that beat their instrument so hard you feel the need to report them to the humane society. Music is about blending in.

So I would add to the rule set: Listen to what everyone else is doing and mimic that.

People also only learn to play a tune in a particular key. When you change that key you take them out of their comfort zone. I usually ask: "do y'all know this or want to do this one in A" -for example If I can't come up with a fiddle tune pretty fast I would just go to some easy three chord song.

catmandu2

May-23-2009, 10:05am

By all means precede the jam with a Rules Committee meeting , and then after reaching a conclusion on what the ground rules are to be, play for the remaining few minutes in strict adherence to the written guidelines .

first decision , meeting to be following Capt.Roberts rules of order for meetings ,
or using a Full Consensus model..

:popcorn:

:))

But seriously, I am sympathetic to the challenges of running a jam; obviously, some structure is required, and "Elliot's Rules" cover the necessary basics. I've run several jams with beginners and other types participating where these rules had to be expressed explicitly. One of my priorities has always been to encourage neophytes of all kinds--nothing worse than a person being told: "you don't play well," etc. I don't know how many persons have told me "Mrs. so-and-so in grade school told me ------ and I've never picked it up since..." Integrated jams are always a challenge, particularly.

Someone said something about musicians being pretty much empathic and sensitive to their surroundings (paraphrased). Of course, there are probbaly just as many who are totally clueless, especially as pertains to social environments.:mandosmiley: The words prima donna and neanderthal come to mind :whistling:

JeffD

May-23-2009, 10:42am

:(I've never been to an "Old Time " jam, and the more I hear about the goings on at them, the more I don't really want to go. Are they all that strick and run with an iron hand? It almost sounds a bit snobbish. I hope that isn't the case.

No No no no no. Give it a try.

Don't generalize from individual experience.

For me, the BG jam was the hardest to feel accepted by. In the beginning I commited every offense imaginable. I got the hairy eyeball for wrong mandolin (bowlback), wrong mandolin, (A sytle), wrong kind of tune (folk song), wrong speed (too slow), wrong key (we don't do that one in A), lame break (all you did was play thte tune), wrong chords (open as opposed to closed chop chords). I was pretty discouraged, because I was already jamming at OT jams and Irish music sessions, played in a contra dance band, and thought I had a little experience.

Were I to generalize I would have said the opposite, why is BG so rigid and inflexible.

Every jam is different and every genre has its purists. Nowadays, first time at a jam, I listen about twice as much as I play. That is a good rule for the first time at any jam - listen about an hour for every 20 minutes you play.

ChrisStewart

May-23-2009, 10:59am

First sign that you are at a jam with a bunch of first class &*%:

They give you the stink eye because you brought the wrong type of mandolin.

If this happens to you immediately turn around and walk away. Long periods of exposure could turn you to the dark side. :))

Jill McAuley

May-23-2009, 1:03pm

I have known a few guitar players that beat their instrument so hard you feel the need to report them to the humane society. .

Chris, that is priceless! I nearly spat tea all over the laptop just now!

Cheers,
Jill

journeybear

May-23-2009, 3:23pm

...I have known a few guitar players that beat their instrument so hard you feel the need to report them to the humane society ...

Oh yeah ... The first time I went to the Newport Folk Festival (mid-90s) Indigo Girls were the headliners on Sunday. They each had two guitars. Reason being, they both strummed so hard they had to swap out after every song, :disbelief: while their guitar tech frantically tuned the guitars they had just played in order to get them ready for the next song. :disbelief: I felt sorry for him - though he truly earned his pay - and also for those poor guitars. :crying: It was instrument abuse, and nearly sickening.

For me, the BG jam was the hardest to feel accepted by. In the beginning I commited every offense imaginable. I got the hairy eyeball for wrong mandolin (bowlback), wrong mandolin, (A style), wrong kind of tune (folk song), wrong speed (too slow), wrong key (we don't do that one in A), lame break (all you did was play the tune), wrong chords (open as opposed to closed chop chords). I was pretty discouraged, because I was already jamming at OT jams and Irish music sessions, played in a contra dance band, and thought I had a little experience.

Man! That sounds pretty rough! But you learned, right? And you didn't give up, but adjusted. That's part of the learning process - observe and adjust. Every genre has its characteristics, and in order to play with others you have to find common ground, which means learning the basics. Sometimes that means being a little conservative, and as you pointed out in an earlier post, a bluesy version of Seneca Square Dance ain't gonna fly in these situations. BUT, if you meet some like-minded individuals in these settings, there is nothing to stop you from getting together some other time and place and rocking Seneca Square Dance till the cows come home, or jump over the moon, however they get affected. Jams are great places to meet people and have fun playing music, but odd musical behavior is likely to get frowned upon. Not that there's anything wrong with it :mandosmiley: just the wrong setting.