Self-taught or Mentored?

[Mark Seale]

A poll question and follow-up for the luthiers out there:

Are you self-taught or did you work as an apprentice? Are there opportunities to spend time in some of the master's shops to see how a pro shop works?

[Michael Lewis]

I think that the traditional apprenticeship is very rare anymore. At least in lutherie in the USA. It is mostly because most shops are small operations of 1 or 2 persons and they need to make efficient use of their time. It takes lots of time to teach someone to work at a professional level, this is time spent NOT making money for the most part. The traditional master would have an agreement with the apprentice that would guarantee so many years of work from the apprentice to pay for the education. I doubt such conditions would be acceptable to official labor overseeing officials. For this very reason there have been a tremendous growth of schools of varying depth to teach aspiring students. In reality, there is a tremendous wealth of good information available regarding making, restoration, and repair of stringed instruments.

The most basic and important skill is the use and care of your tools. Without this skill you will constantly be frustrated by less than master grade work. It takes time and repetition to get the feel and build your skill. Then there is the vast amount of knowledge that is so useful, like how to effect repairs so they don't detract from the instrument's value or function, finishing, wood storage, how to deal with suppliers, dealing with customers, etc. It goes on and on.

Go to a good school, not to get a certificate, but to get knowledge and experience, then go out and get a job(any job) that will support you. Once you have a good job you can work on instruments in your "spare" time until you are working at a professional level, and spend more and more time with the instruments until it is full time. If you REALLY want to do this you will find a way to make it happen. It's a lot of effort.

[Rob Grant]

" Second, if you truly are a master craftsman that loves the mando why are you worried about money?"...

How about food in the fridge, clothes for the kids, petrol in the tank and what the heck, ya' gotta' pay the electric bill, cause it's hell carvin' wood in the dark without power tools!

The eastern seaboard of the USA may not be familiar with Michael's instruments, but there are are a few of us down here in this wide brown land in the southern hemisphere that are impressed.

Rob, FarOutNorthQueensland,Oz.

[Rob Grant]

Seems I didn't exactly answer the question either... self-taught. Haven't given up the day job as I got to keep the lights burnin' and the fridge full. <g>

Rob,FNQ,Au.
http://www.cyberwizards.com.au/~robaria

[Bob DeVellis]

Michael:

I found your reply to be well reasoned, honest, and constructive.

[Rob Powell]

You know...mandoJeremy is right about lutherie schools and the builders he mentioned. Still, I think the point Michael made is entirely valid. Those builders didn't go to school because they COULD apprentice or get on-the-job experience. Back in those days, it was culturally how things were done and it was economically feasible. Today, the competition of mass produced instruments and cheap outsourced labor make it neither for a luthier.


Second, if you truly are a master craftsman that loves the mando why are you worried about money?

Even master craftsmen gotta eat http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif


I actually think you are asking way too much for a mando that nobody has heard of except on the Cafe.

Cruel and unusal punishment. I've never seen a Lewis up close and personal but I love his designs and if they sound as good as they look, they are worth every penny.

Let me put this one to you...does the builder's fame have anything to do with the quality or value of the instrument? Is a <substitute your most lusted after builder here> a better instrument just because of the inlay on the peghead?

I do agree, it would be great if Michael, Lynn, Paul LeStock (Man, those G's just kill me) or any of the builders here including the non-pro's would pass on through hands on. I think the point Michael was trying to make is that someone like himself can't support an apprenticeship approach and still feed his family.

I've been toying with asking Darby (Rose mandolins) if he would let me come and hang around with him occasionally since I live close by. Hey, looks like I just did http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

In any case, I think enough people respect Michael's work that you choppin' on him was unwarranted.

My two cents and I don't want them back http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

--Rob

[amowry]

Just for the record, Michael's instruments are known and respected up here in Montana too.

I was about to say that I'm self taught, but in truth I learned most of what I know about woodworking from others, just not directly. The ability to glean info from books and the internet has been my best friend. The amount of information available to us these days is mind-boggling. Sometimes these forums come very close to one-on-one instruction, and I've made ties with other luthiers that wouldn't have been possible just two decades ago. It's too bad that it's not feasible to do apprenticeships very often anymore, but the spirit of information-sharing is alive and well! Excuse my brief rant.

[Chris Baird]

I have been the apprentice of Michael Lewis, Lynn Dudenbostel, Charlie Derrington, and many others whom have given much information and needed help via this forum and others. #Michael does what he can to help others out, as we all do here, by sharing tips and adivice that have been personally hard won through trial and error. #It is a different world than the 1600s. #Apprenticeship exists but in a different form, and those who are proactive and motivated will find that many good builders will take you under their wing via correspondence.

Furthermore, #It is exceedingly egotistical, imo, to judge the value of a builders instruments based solely on how YOU perceive that builders notoriety. # .

[Jim Rowland]

Howdy to MandoJeremy et al:

To avoid scathing,I am self taught,except for the advice and information shared with monumental generosity by master luthiers like Michael Lewis,Lynn D.,etc etc. Nobody knows my mandolins or name. I have invested thousands of dollars and a lot of time on tools and supplies and have never made a dime from it. I am your typical contemporary builder.
Lloyd Loar deserves the kudos he inspires,of course,but he probably did less to produce the coveted instruments he signed than Guy Hart,who's name I do not hear bandied about much here in the East or anywhere else. Loar signed the instruments because he was in charge of quality control. If you have the love and passion which you seem to demand from others,accumulate the wealth of internet information which is so easily accessed these days,the books,tapes and pamphlets,pick up a few hundred bucks worth of tools and head for the shed. After a thousand hours or so of dedicated practice,you can have your very own instrument...maybe a pretty good one. You can sell it and recoup maybe $300 of your investment. Or,maybe you can find some fine luthier who will want to take you on as an apprentice. Be sure to demonstrate for him or her,as you have for us,your fine,respectful attitude and patient approach to the situation. Good Luck.
Jim

[Jim Hilburn]

I guess I've had a combination of self learning and input from some great luthiers. When I decided to build my first mandolin, I had the good fortune of knowing Mike Kemnitzer, and he showed me how to do a dovetail, and I watched him do a lacquer finish including the sunbursting one day. I took a guitar building class from Max Krimmel, and also knew D.W. Stevens, who builds some of the nicest ,most precise archtops on the planet.
But I also have the Siminoff book, and all the Stew-mac videos that are appropriate, several guitar building books, and then more recently, this fine forum. Then it's just a matter of aqquiring the tools and doing it.

[Jim Hilburn]

grow, since my post, I've read yours, and just wanted to point out that there has been some misleading imformation about Guy Hart. He wasn't at all involved in instrument construction, he was a bean counter who was promoted to the head honcho because the company was about to fail and held that position until McCarthy took over. He is probably the guy who fired Loar.
I asked Walter Carter, the Gibson historian about this,by the way.

[Chris Baird]

Mention Guy Hart around Charlie Derringtion and he will hit you on the knuckles with the proverbial e-yardstick.

[LeftCoastMark]

You guys ought to have a Mandolin Symposium of builders for builders.....

[Jim Rowland]

Mea Culpa my friends,

If I am wrong about the old Guy, I must blame the above cited Walter Carter who wrote in his "Acoustic Guitars" book,"..design credit may well go to Guy Hart.." He also quotes Roger Siminoff writing "The Loar mandolin should more properly be called the [Loar=Hart Mandolin]. He further states,"Siminoff's research led him to the conclusion that Hart was the man chieflly behind the development of the instrument line,while Loar was responsible for testing and approving..." Not much equivocation there. He may have learned differently since the publication of his excellent book,and before he reversed himself to Jim H.

[Mark Seale]

Wow, I didn't expect to the need to provide the posters with a Nomex suit for a simple question. I'll keep that in mind. I do appreciate everyone's input, and I can appreciate Michael's point that 1 and 2 man shops need to spend time paying the bills rather than caudling a newbie.

For my own sake, I do have the job that pays the bills and keeps my refrigerator stocked. But, I've also been a life long musician that really enjoys fine instruments, and now would like to spend some time and a good deal of effort learning how the instruments are made. I can see the benefit to spending a couple of weeks at a time in a pro shop, but in turn would need to find a way to make it beneficial to the pro.

Mark

[Jim Hilburn]

Yes, he has reversed himself, and when he wrote the book you refer to, he was using Siminoff as the reference, because Roger had supposedly done more research on Loar than anyone. But further investigation has found that imformation to be mistaken.
From the book, "The Gibson Story", by Jullius Bellson, the first mention of Hart was that he became Secretary and Gen. manager in '24 till '48. In another paragraph, there's a long list of the craftmen's names and what era they worked in and Hart isn't there.
Walter changed the story in another more recent book, and since I had always heard the Loar-Hart story as long as I've been interested in mandolin's, I e-mailed him and that's when he told me further research discredited the Hart story.
Maybe there's still some controversy, but that's just the most recent thing I've heard.

[Chris Baird]

In the violin world modern day apprentices pay the "Master" a sum of money per year to be an apprentice. I've recently visted two such shops and they look like a fine way to go. Perhaps a master mandolin builder would consider such a setup. The apprentice would probably be looking at a sum of $7000-10000 a year for an appreticeship; that is based on prices charged for violin apprenticeships.

[Dale Ludewig]

I'll chime in here also. First, I thought the criticism of Michael's post was completely unwarranted. As to the quality of his instruments, I met Michael at IBMA last year and played two of his mandolins. They were very fine instruments, both in craftsmanship and sound. And Michael was very friendly to me, a fellow builder, and very open and sharing with building info.
As to the original question, I'm primarily self taught, except for books, videos, and trading of tricks of the trade from other builders. I must say that my interactions with other mandolin makers has been nothing but positive and I'm always amazed at how information is shared so openly.

Dale Ludewig

[Mario Proulx]

mandoJeremy, that was uncalled for. First, like everybody else on this planet, Michael needs to eat! So does Lynn, Jim, Dale, myself and every other luthier. We don't have another day job to put food on the table; this _IS_ our day job.

Second, Michael's instruments are well worth his asking price; just try to find one for sale! The west coast players are keeping him plenty busy, as are the archtop guitar buyers. His workmanship is of the highest caliber, trust me. I physically shook the first time I looked over one of his archtop guitars, it was perfect.

I'm sure you haven't seen much, if any, of my work, but that doesn't mean my work isn't worth what I'm asking for it, right? Don't sell us short because we aren't in your backyard.

Michael and I taught an on-line mandolin building course a couple of years ago(mostly Michael; I just helped) for free, with all proceeds towards a instrument making forum(where he still gives of his knowledge freely and openly). We spent countless hours teaching and guiding, and never asked for any money for ourselves. Even now, years after the course is over, we still answer calls and e-mails from some of our students who are getting into a snagg here and there. And years before that, when I was still very green, he helped guide me in the right direction, giving freely of his time and knowledge.

YOU owe the man an apology.

Oh, I'm self taught, too, but recieved much help and guidance after getting my feet wet by friends like Michael and others, many who are here.

Respectfully:

Mario

[mandoJeremy]

Well, I really touched a nerve here didn't I? Sorry guys, I think you may have taken my post a little out of context because I know what I meant when I posted. Basically, I have thought about building a mando but I would definitely have to have a tutor that could show me some hands on experience and not just information over the internet. Maybe I am just not that smart! Believe me, I know a person has to eat and pay the bills but I am just saying that if someone loves instrument building as much as we musicians love playing they would do it because of their passion for it. Dang guys, I didn't say Michael's mandolins sucked or anything like that because they must be pretty good or he wouldn't be able to sell them at any price. I just haven't seen or played one and there is no way I could justify spending that kind of money on an instrument I know nothing of. So anyways, am I not allowed to have an opinion even if you guys don't agree with it?

[mandoryan]

I think you might want to think about what you say before you say it. It is an open forum, but people with feelings are on the other end of the monitor and keyboard....

[mandoJeremy]

Whatever, I deleted the original posts! I'll keep my opinions on building to myself I guess since I am not a builder and believe me I am always totally amazed by someone that can turn simple wood into beautiful instrument. I wish I had that gift but I don't. Michael, if I did hurt your feelings or make you ill at me then I am sorry and maybe one day I will get to play one of your mandos!

[Hans]

Michael Lewis builds some of the finest mandolins I've seen.

I'm pretty much self taught, although I did go to Red Wing Votech in '72 to learn violin repair. I have worked as a repairman in several shops, and built instruments on the side for many years. Michael's advice about a good fulltime job and building as a hobby is a sound one.

[Chris Baird]

mandojeremy, You certainly are entitled to an opinion and are just as well entitled to catch hell for it. It was cowardly to erase your posts.

[mandoJeremy]

Cowardly? I don't think so. I was trying to be a little more respectful to Michael, thanks for the analysis though.

[peter.coombe]

I'm self taught and also keep the day job to eat and pay the mortgage. Have been a woodworker since about the age of 13 so had the basics when I started. Have invested a scary amount in the workshop, but most of that has come from mandolin sales. That is about all I have to show from the mandolin sales, there has been very little left over, so without the day job we would have starved. Getting closer to being a full time Luther, but still have a way to go yet. I got my information from Luthier friends such as Gillian Alcock, Terry McGee, Lawrence Smith, Doug Eaton, Tim Guster, Steve Gilchrist, Lawrence Smart, Lynn Dudenbostle, and others. Also joined the GAL and that has been a source of some very useful information. The Internet has been a wonderful source of information as well as the means of staying in contact with people on the other side of the planet. Years ago the information was very difficult to get, and at first I had a lot of trouble getting good information specifically for mandolins. The only mandolin maker I knew (not on the list above) was not willing to give away any "secrets", so I just measured my old Gibson and dived in. The first sounded quite respectible, but looks crude now. Today there are no secrets, and I am still gathering information and learning, and expect to continue learning until I snuff it.

I don't know about other makers, but I have had quite a few enquiries about if I would take an apprentice. The answer has always been no. A day job, and trying to keep the business of mando making in the black, plus an apprentice is just too much to handle.

[Keith Newell]

I must say I am self taught in luthier type work BUT I did serve an apprenticeship for Journeyman Machinist and became one 25 years ago. I then proceeded to fill my time up with making things like black powder rifles, car parts, archery stuff, B**jo stuff and rebuilding, fixing and refinishing old instruments. I also was a player of music on everything wierd like double F french horns, violas, baratones, bag pipes, not to mention fiddles, mando's and B**jo's. I then wound up fixing all my friends instruments and fitting it in between making stuff for my kids and just life in general.
I work a day job (50 hrs a week) and build mandolins in my shop for about 25 to 35 hrs a week. I forgot what a televison looks like but I sure know a CD player. I agree with Mr. Lewis about taking care of your tools and I believe in having the right tool for the right job. I also believe that if Im going to spend a ton of hours creating a mandolin then the extra cost of the finest woods or the extra time to fix the one little thing that doesn't sit quite right with me is well spent.
I'm the type that if I make something and I know there is a little blemish or flaw (even if it won't effect anything in the instrument) inside the instrument or out it drives me nuts and in my eyes it degrades my creation permanantly.
I would have given anything to have been shown the trade of luthiery and not had to learn some lessons the hard way...but then again would they have impressed themselves so well on me then?
I say hats off to all those fine craftsmen that frequent this site and impart a bit of knowledge to us and hope someday that I can reach the artistic and craftmanship levels that so many here show so consistantly.
Keith Newell

[Dale Ludewig]

Hey- mandoJeremy. I don't know if it's cowardly or not to erase you original post. In the public eye that this forum is, I probably would have reposted, quoting your original post plus the fact that you maybe didn't say it all the way you wanted, perhaps didn't think it through well enough, but let your original words stand and then state what you've learned. There's nothing wrong in making a mistake, but seeming to assault another individual in a public forum, regardless of frame of mind, especially if you've never seen their work in person: not good. On the other hand, I think your posts regarding this whole issue has made clear and this all may be moot.

Now, more to the point: what's this fascination with Tupperware?

Now, because of this particular issue, but to a more genral question to the cafe'rs:
Could you tell us who you really are? Your real name? I think that it's time for people on these forums to just use their real names. Why do otherwise? A lot of builders do. Spruce- you're exempt- we all know who you are! Same for Randy. But sunburst, I don't know who you are. I'd like to. Same to mandoJeremy. Just a thought.

Dale Ludewig

[mandoJeremy]

Okay Dale, I wasn't insulting Michael's product just the price! Maybe they are worth it, who knows? I certainly don't so you're right, I don't have the knowledge to even make a fair critique of there value. And now to the point, you aren't the first member to ask me about my signature line. Here's your explanation: One night I had a dream (I was not using ANY kinds of substances so this is going to show how weird I really am though, like most musicians aren't!). Anyways, I dreamed I was walking on a moon and I got to the top of it and it said Tupperware across it just like the bottom of a Tupperware bowl. I then realized I was walking on a Tupperware moon. So the next day I wrote a new mando tune and called it "Tupperware Moon". There you go. For your last statement regarding names all you have to do is click on my profile icon and you will see what my real name is. Here's a little hint....it really is Jeremy!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dale Ludewig]

Well, Jeremy, I just learned something about the cafe. Didn't know about profiles. I better go check what I let the world know about myself!
By the way, nice dream about tupperware. I think you should write that song.

Regarding price on a mandolin, or anything else made, is it worth it? That's up to the market and the particular buyer. When you get up to the level of craftsmanship where Michael, Dude, Gilchrest, or any other very good craftstman is, and I could name quite a few, the questions become: 1. Do you like the sound? This is subjective, in my opinion. 2: Is it going to increase in value? This is another question that is both speculative and also perhaps irrevelant. If you like it and plan to keep it for a long time, increase in value is probably not an issue. And then again, maybe it is. It's up to the buyer. So you decide, I guess, is it worth it? I do know this, as Mario mentioned- it's good to have a day job. If you're trying to do this as a living, this is where the groceries come from and your attitude as a builder moves from romance to a combination of love of what you're doing and making a living. Depending on your sources, to make an F5 style instrument, material and hardware prices can range from $500-$1000. Labor can be 120 hours. You do the math. Please understand that I'm not criticizing, only trying to clarify.
Now I'm going to look outside for that Tupperware Moon. javascript: InstaSmilie()
javascript: InstaSmilie():D

Dale Ludewig http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Michael Lewis]

Holy Cow guys! I just stepped in here and guess I missed the first salvo, but the rest of the fireworks are indeed impressive. I must say that it is overwhelming to see the support from you all, thank you.

Jeremy, I didn't see your post but never mind, I get the drift, and agree with you that you should be skeptical of instruments unknown to you. If you are truely interested in making a mandolin let me suggest the video set by Don McRostie from Stewart/MacDonald. It will take you through the entire process of making a mandolin and you get to watch Don use the tools so you can get the idea of how to use them. The quality of your results are entirely up to you. This is much like playing the mandolin in that you really have to want to do it bad enough to overcome the obsticles to get good results. It can be a long road but if you put the effort that is required it can be very rewarding. It seldom happens over night. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Ted Eschliman]

It's one thing to observe design by pictures on the internet (and merely speculate the 3rd & 4th dimensional aspects of the instrument), another to inspect one close up in an noisy, crowded exhibit at a festival or forum for a few fleeting moments.
The true test of quality is ownership. When hands have months to acquaint themselves personally over the course of many months (if not years), the nuance of feel and function within intimate personal interaction give the only true assesment of an instrument. (Albeit, it still boils down to personal taste...)
I register this as a Lewis "owner." I've had in my possession on of his finest mandolins, and though I've had the privilege of comparing it to other world class instruments, there is no doubt in my mind the price tag on his craft is worthy.
I'm a believer.

[John Zimm]

Hats off to Michael Lewis. I imagine few of us would have responded with that kind of grace, and advice to boot.

-John.

[krishna]

I was looking into schools a while back. Man, it's HARD to get enough relevant info on this subject.One of the sites said that in North America only 20 percent of luthiers are taught at school or apprentised. That's 80 percent self taught. And that was what made me think I could do it . ...PS some of the schools are asking astronomical fees. There is a luthiery school on Vancouver Island that gets 16 k for 6 months and 32 k for the year!(Canadian funds) ...PS Congats on all the medals at the Olympics you guys!...I was wondering in a polite Canadian kind of way if WE might be allowed... you know...maybe a Bronze or something...Kerry

[krishna]

Michael Lewis is a scholar and a gentleman. How many of us would have taken Mando Jeremy's lame-### #'But maybe they ARE too much money" apology as well as he did? And THEN giving the guy GOOD ADVICE? Unbelievable.!!!...Jeramy,if you can learn from this then it might have been embarassing,but it could be a small life lesson that maybe we ,at this site can all put into the proper context of the past. I learned late in life that the baseball I threw strait up in the air, #(because I did not think #were it might land) might land on the windsheild of a vintage car.( What kind of Vintage car would Michael Lewis be?) I still think you #JUST DONT GET IT #and instead of this public forum, you should #think about why you should apologize for 'Giving my opinion', # and send' M' a REAL #apology.....Kerry... # PS #If you honestly DON'T get it,if you still think you're right , and are just feeling presured to save face before the rest of us, ##don't bother. #Knowing the GENTLEMAN that Michael is, He won't tell us whether you did or did'nt.

[mandoJeremy]

Mr. krishna, for one, I never said that I WAS RIGHT! #I sometimes open my mouth before I should but I always feel bad about it later because I do have a big heart and I never want to hurt anyone's feelings. #And for the record, I had planned to send Michael a personal apology in email form to him before he posted. #I read his post and I thought it was okay but people like you want to keep hammering at it so go ahead and do so! #Second, I do agree that Michael was a gentleman and honestly krishna, I have no reason to "save face" on a message board. #If I am out of line Scott will definitely let me know and he has once before. #Being that you have only been a member since April of this year I guess you haven't seem the major flames and hell we have all caught from other people's "opinions" and for giving our own over the last 3 or 4 years have you? #If this thread is what you think is heated on this forum then you need to ask some people hear about a few things from the past. #So, in conclusion, I appreciate your concern and I hope you have a great day and if you think any apology is lame-### then you just might be one of those yourself. #If I didn't regret what I said I would care less and I would never apologize but I do and did!

[krishna]

Uhhh yah.

[sunburst]

Could you tell us who you really are? Your real name? I think that it's time for people on these forums to just use their real names. Why do otherwise? A lot of builders do. Spruce- you're exempt- we all know who you are! Same for Randy. But sunburst, I don't know who you are. I'd like to. Same to mandoJeremy. Just a thought.

Dale Ludewig
Just got back from a week at Galax fidler's convention. Having a little trouble grasping what all this is exactly about.

Anyway, I suppose I'm self taught, but, like many others have mentioned, books, conversations with other builders, this forum, etc. have all been sources of information.

The "day job" that supported me through the early years of lutherie was in fact lutherie. I was working for a manufacturer building instruments and parts. These days repairs pay most of the bills, but I am trying to tilt the balance more toward building and less toward repair. I still want to continue to do both for the variety of routine and for the different challenges involved in one as opposed to the other.

My name is John Hamlett, it's no secret, most people's names can be found in their member profiles. I'm not trying to hide who I am. I don't really know why I decided to be "sunburst", just thought it was kind of fun, and also a way to post information without seeming like I'm trying to show how much I know or otherwise trying to draw attention to myself as an individual.

[mandoJeremy]

HI JOHN, I am Jeremy and I am a mandoholic!

[Luthier]

Get the "jump start" and inspiration here,
http://www.ext.vt.edu/resources/4h/northern/adult.html#2003

Don

[Dale Ludewig]

Hi Sunburst- (John)- Thanks. And once again, I was not aware of the profiles. Learn something everyday, ya know. Hope to meet you sometime. I always enjoy your posts.
Dale

[sunburst]

Hi Dale.
I'll look for you at IBMA. I think I'll be going.

John

[Michael Lewis]

John, are you exhibiting? I hope so, but if you aren't, at least bring something to carry around, I would enjoy seeing some of your work. I will be an exhibitor this year, so I have made a point of having instruments to show when the event happens(if I get them done on time). I'm usually out of mandos by the time IBMA happens.

I extend my appreciation of everyone stickin' up for me, and want to let you all know that Jeremy has contacted me and we have exchanged dialog, all is well. I really appreciate your moral suport, but take it easy on him. He sort of got into a hornets nest with you guys. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[mandoJeremy]

Thank you very much Michael and I will respond in email form later. If I had to base my decision for a mandolin on a guy that actually understands where I am coming from in all areas, then I can I guarantee that it would be you. Thank you for sharing with me what you did and I was going to let you know that I used that word for the past and not now. I am very richly blessed now in life. Thank you again for the inspiration and honesty.

[sunburst]

Michael, I will not be exhibiting at IBMA. I'm down to one mandolin with two underway that almost surely wont be finished by then. If I don't sell the one I have I'll have it with me.
I'm looking forward to seeing your instruments as well as others that I've never gotten to see and hear.

[mandoryan]

Very commendable Jeremy!

[John Flynn]

This may be slightly off point, but there was a mando segment on the "Sunday Morning" TV show a couple of months ago featuring interviews with Grisman and Gilchrist. I thought it was interesting that Gilchrist started out making surfboards and he credits some of the basic skills he developed doing that as helping him make good mandolins. For some reason, I find "crossover" stories like that fascinating.

[sunburst]

Learning to use and maintain tools is so important to building that any experience with wood work or other materials is a big head start.

[Luthier]

I might as well chime in. I studied woodworking in college and began teaching myself instrument building at that time. With a banjo, mountain dulcimer, mandolin and hammered dulcimer under my belt, I decided not to make use of my teaching degree at that time but rather opted to go to work for LoPrinzi Guitar Co. in Plainsboro, N.J.
When he went out of business, I found gainful employment and kept building and doing repair work on the side. I have been teaching Middle School (do not get me started) for the past 17 years and manage to do repair work and squeeze out about 4 or 5 custom made instruments a year. I cannot emphasize enough at how important it is to learn about the wood and the tools used in woodworking. A tool is only as good as the person using it.
As for my instruments, I do not have a recognized name. I don't do the shows or festivals so I consider myself to be a recluse or closet luthier that has a family that puts up with my obsessive compulsive behavior and polks their head in my shop to let me know when it is time to eat.
So I put on 6 shows a day to a bunch of raging hormones with feet, come home, and into my sanctuary I go.
(that's my story and I'm stickin to it)


Don

[otterly2k]

I just want to point out on this thread that Don (above) runs instrument building workshops (one for mando, one for OM) using kits of his own design, and I've seen several very happy customers rave about the experience in various places on these boards.

For someone, like myself, who has very little woodworking knowledge/experience, almost no tools, but a long-standing dream of learning how to make an instrument, this is an ideal way to test the waters, IMHO. It is rare to find such opportunities, so much so that I am looking for a time/way that I could do his workshop even though I live pretty far away...

I agree with some of the folks who've chimed in that videos, websites and other instructional materials may not be enough for all of us. I think, perhaps, for folks who already have woodworking experience, familiarity with the tools, and a workshop available to them, etc. it might be enough to read about it... but for those of us without that background, I think having some way of being walked through it (and access to a workshop and tools!) may be crucial. Like many crafts, I expect, it is difficult to fully describe the hands-on experience and easy to forget to mention a lot of the background knowledge that one comes to take for granted.

I'll also say that I think that there is also some gender-bias working in the mix for me...I think more boys than girls are encouraged to learn how to use these sorts of tools, or even to believe that they could try something like woodwork and instrument building. I find I envy the guys I know (and a few women too) who grew up watching their dads make stuff, and learned basics from them as kids. Or course this is not an experience shared by all men, but at least most men didn't grow up with the message that an interest in woodwork or using tools was weird or wrong .

KE

[sunburst]

I'll also say that I think that there is also some gender-bias working in the mix for me...I think more boys than girls are encouraged to learn how to use these sorts of tools, or even to believe that they could try something like woodwork and instrument building. I find I envy the guys I know (and a few women too) who grew up watching their dads make stuff, and learned basics from them as kids. Or course this is not an experience shared by all men, but at least most men didn't grow up with the message that an interest in woodwork or using tools was weird or wrong .

KE
otterly2k,

You make a lot of good points. I suppose there is a lot of background info that I take for granted.

I grew up on a farm. I saw my Dad fix things, my Grandfather, the hired hand, my uncle, it was just the way you did things. You didn't pay to have things fixed, you fixed them. I count that experience as an advantage, but I take it for granted too.

There is a gender bias, tho it seems to be getting less with each generation. It can certainly be overcome tho.

My "significant other", runs a full line music store. She does all repairs on guitars, mandolins, banjos, brass, woodwinds, accordians, etc.
She has a degree from a technical college in band instrument repair, and another in wood technology. She apprenticed with John Monteleone (and has a great sounding Monteleone mandolin that she built under his instruction), She worked for Taylor guitars for a while, and she is a CF Martin warranty center.

Oh, and by the way, I've thought of attending one of Don's workshops too. Mostly because I do live close by. I have yet to meet him but we've exchanged a few emails.
From his posts here, I suspect a thorough knowledge of building plus an ability to teach - something not to be overlooked when making the decision to spend the money and time on a workshop.

[Luthier Vandross]

I am self-taught, kind of. When I was a kid, they hadn't invented modern repair, most people just patched it all up on their own.

Traveling in rock bands for years, and either having no tech, or lame techs made me work on all my equipment/instruments myself. After running the replacement neck stock out at a manufacturer we endorsed, I decided I'd have to figure out how to fix the broken ones. Elmers, and a shoelace..

I have a background in stone carving.. so then around 88-89 I met Randy Wood, and a couple months later he asked if I could carve 20 necks for another guys project, and well... here I am.

But, it all started 15 years earlier, when I decided to glue the necks into all my bolt-on guitars, and paint them yellow... canary yellow... oh my..

;)

M

[Magnus Geijer]

I was going to post and say that I'm self taught, but then I thought about it for a second.

15 years ago or so I started to build an electric solidbody guitar with the help of Siminoff's book on the subject. I still haven't quite finished it, but one of these days... Then in 2001 I got mando-bug-bitten, and a quick look around made it clear that purchasing a quality instrument was not in my immediate (budget) future, but an amazing over-estimation of my wood working skills led me to believe I could build one. So I bought the Siminoff book and the Benedetto book and... Well. At least looked at the pictures a lot before I started building. I also soaked up the builders forum here and on Co-Mando, before I started building. As the work progressed I asked approximately 11,278 questions of various stupidity and more or less immediately got detailed responses from the biggest names in the business, often including photos to really make it impossible to misunderstand.

I might not be able to claim an apprenticeship to the level where I could put it on my resume, but I do think that many of the builders on here are doing enough charitable answering of questions that they can claim to have an apprentice as far as being charitable and passing on the knowledge goes.

My mandos would have been absolutely miserable junk, if they had even been finished at all, if it hadn't been for people like Michael Lewis, Ken & Laura Ratcliff, Jim Hilburn, Lynn Dudenbostel, Charlie Derrington, Bill Bussman, Jamie Wiens, Bruce Harvie and, and, and... I could go on and on.

So what's my point here exactly? Well, more than anything else, it's: Thanks guys.

/Magnus Geijer

[Kent Barnes]

While I am by no means on the same level with most of those who have already chimed in on this thread, I wanted to put in my $.02 worth.
I am self taught, but with the aid of Lynn Dudenbostel (the website documenting his building process), Jim Hilburn, Jamie Weis, Sunburst, Luthier, and a host of others (apologies to those I left out) who freely give advice and suggestions, and are eager to answer questions. #I know I wouldn't have been nearly as successful with my first attempt without their wisdom. #Now that #2 is nearly complete, I am looking forward to starting #3!

[resonant68]

Mentored for sure!!!!
By all the fine folks here on Mandolin Cafe'!
I did take a mandolin building course with Don Kawalek but had already built my first mando before I took the course.But that was with the aid of Don McRosties tapes from StewMac.Also I read everything I could find on the internet.And believe me,there is plenty!
Self taught?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif???No Way!