CONUS only

[bernard morand]

Hello. I am a newbie to this forum and living in Europe. So a probably naive question to everyone here. Many ads in the classified mention that the instrument is available only to continental (or contiguous?) US states. For example I read: $1300 shipped to the lower 48 (only).
What are the reasons of such limitations which look to be quite frequent?
Problems with shipping insurances, or transport control, or cost or anything else?
Thanks for the answers (and apologies for my bad English)

[MikeEdgerton]

Shipping outside the US can be troublesome for some people. Many times the amount of work to ship something overseas becomes more trouble than one is willing to go through and there are issues getting paid as well. For every person that won't ship outside the US you'll find one that will. I sold a banjo years ago to a nice man in Ireland. It literally took weeks to finalize a transaction that would have taken hours in the US.

[Anglocelt]

Hi Bernard, I have also come across some reluctance by US sellers to send instruments abroad. Maybe because the USA is such a big market they rarely have to do so and so they think it unusual.

With the advent of paypal and the competitive and well organised shipping industry there is really no reason for this reluctance any more. I import a few items from the USA and I often have to explain the only extra work is getting (or downloading) a customs declaration form from the shipper, sticking it on the parcel and stating the value - a minute's work! The effort taken to pack for overseas is otherwise the same as that for CONUS.

I am often surprised that many US sellers on eBay are prepared to accept a lower price because they won't offer items overseas - frustrating because the majority of good vintage mandos reside in the USA!

Cheers,

Kevin

[MikeEdgerton]

That's true Kevin until the human being portion comes in and they ask you to mark it as a gift so there aren't any customs duties and you find out that the box is 2 inches too big to make it into a postal class or the buyer insists upon sending a bank check. I could go on. To assume it's easy all the time is nice but it doesn't make it true. Getting things into the UK is a bit easier than into one of the Pacific Island nations but there is more to it generally than just the customs form. There are many that would be reluctant to take Paypal on an International sale as well due to problems associated with Paypal's dispute resolution. It's tough enough when the other person is in the US. There are some real challenges involved that make it more trouble than people are willing to go through.

[LoneStarMandolin]

and don't forget all the overseas scams that you get - "I sir will want wire you $50,000 US dollars and then you can will keep the excess expect to share with me one part and then your parcel send."

all of that goes away when you say "nope. conus only."

and don't tell me paypal fixes it. sent a laptop to Java (the country, not the coffee) only to have Paypal suddenly reverse the payment out (fraudulent credit card), draining the funds out of my account. fortunately, it was fed ex and I was able to get fed ex to turn it around back to me (at my expense). otherwise the laptop would've been shipped on my nickel to a thief!

in the end -- all the extra packing, hoaxes, customs, etc. -- it's not worth it. mark me conus only.

[EdSherry]

There's a difference between "US only" and "CONUS only" -- namely, Alaska and Hawaii.

Shipping to customers in those areas doesn't raise customs or currency problems like shipping outside the US does, but the shipping costs to Alaska and Hawaii are significantly higher than within the lower 48 states.

So you'll sometimes see listings that quote shipping prices within the CONUS at a flat rate, with the implication that shipping to Alaska and Hawaii will be more expensive.

But I agree that many US-based sellers just aren't willing to sell outside the US.

[Mike Bunting]

and don't forget all the overseas scams that you get - "I sir will want wire you $50,000 US dollars and then you can will keep the excess expect to share with me one part and then your parcel send."

all of that goes away when you say "nope. conus only."

and don't tell me paypal fixes it. sent a laptop to Java (the country, not the coffee) only to have Paypal suddenly reverse the payment out (fraudulent credit card), draining the funds out of my account. fortunately, it was fed ex and I was able to get fed ex to turn it around back to me (at my expense). otherwise the laptop would've been shipped on my nickel to a thief!

in the end -- all the extra packing, hoaxes, customs, etc. -- it's not worth it. mark me conus only.
Canadians don't enjoy being lumped with Nigerian scammers.

[Jim MacDaniel]

I usually include shipping within CONUS in the price of my for sale items since shipping elsewhere is generally more expensive, but I also will also add a note indicating that anyone outside the CONUS can request a custom price with shipping to their destination.

NB, on a similar note, I have noticed several "Europe only" items in the classifieds as of late -- so I suspect that some sellers in the EU may have concerns about the potential hassles or delays associated with shipping to destinations outside of the EU. ;)

[Stephen Lind]

i fail to understand why any one selling something shouldn't put whatever stipulations they want on that sale for their own good (to them) reasons

[mrmando]

sent a laptop to Java (the country, not the coffee)
um ... Java's an island. Indonesia is the country, and its reputation as a haven for scammers is second only to Nigeria.

I've done OK with sending instruments to Australia, France, Norway, Germany, Israel and probably a few places I'm forgetting, but there has been quite a learning curve with postal rates/regulations, etc. It's a tricky business, but it can be done safely. There's a great deal of inconvenience for international buyers -- they have to wait for instruments to get through customs, etc.

[bernard morand]

OK. Thanks to everyone. Seems clearer to me now. The main valuable argument looks to be the payment process that can be cumbersome if not paypaled.
The other ones doesn't seem to me different from selling to somebody inside US by means of virtual technology. The laptop affair told by Lonestarmandolin could have been exactly the same with an american buyer. It seems that one seller out of 2 feels basically unsecure with virtual trade. So it makes room for third party institutions like Paypal or the Cafe whose purpose is to secure the trade to some extend. Yet buying a mando without having really played it or even heard it is unsecure too!
Perhaps Kevin is also getting at something when he says that the US market is large enough for the seller to find a buyer.

[Steve L]

What kind of music do you play Bernard? I'm curious as I get together with friends a couple of times a month to play folk music of France. I'm lucky (Well, not everyone would think so) enough to know 2 enthusiastic amatuer hurdy-gurdy players and the music is really delightful. It sounds fabulous on the mandolin. I wish it had a higher public profile.

Sorry for the hijack folks.

By the way Bernard, your English seems perfect.

[Dagger Gordon]

Hi Bernard,

I like French music a lot. Had a great time at St Chartier two years ago.

If you live in Normandy, you are not far at all from Brighton, England where there is a shop with a huge selection of mandolins including several American makers.

It's called The Acoustic Music Company, and you will find a link to them on the home page of Mandolin Cafe (look for the British flag).

[Stephen Perry]

PayPal can prove quite dangerous. Credit cards, too. At this point, we will generally only take a wire to our overseas clearinghouse.

A nagging problem has been that we get blamed for non-delivery whenever anything goes wrong. Something doesn't show up in Spain, and threats fly our direction, even if proof of mailing provided.

Returns from overseas or across borders become difficult, too. Any cross border shipping presents potential problems.

These are not insignificant problems. I know a fellow lost $40,000 as a result of a very clever scam using credit cards. The bad charges were routed some fancy way where they "bounced" long after any expected period. Killed his business. PayPal presents its own challenges, and those folks can just freeze your funds for what looks like bogus reasons.

An example of shipping problems. Fellow wanted mando work, sent a mandolin from Canada to us, packed at a UPS store. Arrived here and UPS wanted lots of $$ for import duty, brokerage, etc. We refused this package. Notified the sender, who indicated he wasn't informed of any of this. He agreed to pay the extra funds. So Gianna popped down to UPS to get the package. UPS handed her the package. No signature, nothing. We sent it back with appropriate documentation to prevent the owner being charged import duty and other taxes. A couple of months later, we got a bill for whatever it was, $135 or something, from UPS addressed to "Gianna Violis" at our address. UPS even provided an acceptance signature - which couldn't be for this package, since we didn't give one. We worked this out several times, but it still got turned over to a collection agency that made threats. They thought Gianna Violis was a person and threatened to ding her credit score. Which is fine with me! But it could have been sticky. Used up too much time.

This type of excess time and payment BS is all too common in International commerce. The big worry being that the most reliable and nicest people are sometimes simply good confidence men. That's how the game works.

We've also had a difficult time with "trial" periods and other typical aspects of sales in dealing with overseas clients. We've gotten one package back, fortunately without duty asked for, containing an expensive instrument without any authorization to return it, well after any reasonable trial period. Return it? Sell it? Hmm. We refunded the money less a restock fee and were able to sell it, but thought we'd never hear the end of how unreasonable we were and how this was against the law in his country. Well, whose law governs?

Payment hassles, shipping hassles, differences in understanding of contracting, etc. I have to wonder whether it's overall worth the trouble.

[grassrootphilosopher]

i fail to understand why any one selling something shouldn't put whatever stipulations they want on that sale for their own good (to them) reasons

To each their own, for sure. But I am with Bernard inasmuch I also think about the CONUS issue. Seems like some Canadian brothers and maybe some Hawaians chime in.

As for the shipping costs, they may be determined before the shipment. Also DSL, FedEx and others have the option that the recipient pays the shipping... With credit cards and such, there is no problem.

The overseas (or rather out of the country) issue may come to mind when it comes to prosecuting fraud. There it might (just might) be easier to go after the perpetrator in your own country.

But if the research is done right, you will find out about your bussiness partner via the internet or other people. Acoustic instruments are a niche product. So you can allways find out about each other (Via your repairperson, instrument dealer, band buddies, booking agent and so on). I am quite sure that a person with "zero feedback" does not exist. If it does I wouldn´t touch it with a ten foot pole let alone do bussiness with them (might be an alien :))).

[trevor]

I ship regularly US/UK in both directions (and in Europe). There are some hassles but we've become efficient at dealing with most of them.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Payment hassles, shipping hassles, differences in understanding of contracting, etc. I have to wonder whether it's overall worth the trouble.

Stephen,
naturally with products that are in a moderate price range, the trouble is not worth it. But think about a nice Chief banjo, a good Ellis mando, a fine Huss & Dalton guitar. They are in a price range that folks don´t pay for daily. So here the extra time is certainly worth to check who your bussiness partner may be. Just now where the dollar is low compared to the EURO it is quite interesting for Europeans to do some overseas shopping.

Now if it were for a Dudenbostel guitar and or mandoliin or a vintage (wartime banner or earlier) Gibson or (pre 60ies) Martin I would only pick it up locally and pay for it where I pick it up, so from a buyer´s perspective there is as little problem as from the seller´s perspective. But go a little lower in the price and shipping comes very handy for both parties.

I bought a banjo about two years ago and didn´t have any problems (except for a FedEx messup that could have happened CONUS as well and that got sorted out without setback for either seller or buyer). I wouldn´t have the perfect banjo if I handn´t gone that way.

[Mike Bromley]

This type of excess time and payment BS is all too common in International commerce.

That's why I used some air miles to go and get my mandolin from Jim last year. It was just easier.

[mcH]

and don't forget all the overseas scams that you get - "I sir will want wire you $50,000 US dollars and then you can will keep the excess expect to share with me one part and then your parcel send."..

And my answer to this has always been -- " I accept cash only. Wire the money with excess funds to your shipper, and have that person cash the check. Have them bring me the cash payment when they come to pick up the instrument; Your shipper can keep the excess cash for his efforts".

[lovethemf5s]

Canadians don't enjoy being lumped with Nigerian scammers.

I spent last winter in Waikiki so of course I became acquainted with a good many Canadians. I can vouch for them and truly say that they are a wonderful people. :)

[Stephen Perry]

Stephen,
naturally with products that are in a moderate price range, the trouble is not worth it. But think about a nice Chief banjo, a good Ellis mando, a fine Huss & Dalton guitar. They are in a price range that folks don´t pay for daily. So here the extra time is certainly worth to check who your bussiness partner may be. Just now where the dollar is low compared to the EURO it is quite interesting for Europeans to do some overseas shopping.

Now if it were for a Dudenbostel guitar and or mandoliin or a vintage (wartime banner or earlier) Gibson or (pre 60ies) Martin I would only pick it up locally and pay for it where I pick it up, so from a buyer´s perspective there is as little problem as from the seller´s perspective. But go a little lower in the price and shipping comes very handy for both parties.

I bought a banjo about two years ago and didn´t have any problems (except for a FedEx messup that could have happened CONUS as well and that got sorted out without setback for either seller or buyer). I wouldn´t have the perfect banjo if I handn´t gone that way.


The problems arise where payment isn't firmly received before hand. Or where the item disappears in shipment. Of course there are no problems most of the time. But once there are problems, the problems are difficult to deal with. I can't easily exercise jurisdiction over someone elsewhere, and vice versa. Collecting on insurance can be difficult. Someone in XYZ indicates their package didn't get there. I don't know how that works with the post office; if the PO shows it was turned over to another PO and lost in XYZ, why would they pay me for the loss caused by XYZ? I haven't tested that one.

Note I never indicated I wouldn't ship overseas. I do all the time. I just hold to a higher level of scrutiny, require real payment (CC & PayPal aren't entirely "real" - one's $ number in a ledger somewhere can drop a lot and there's a real trial to get that reversed, if it's even possible), and change my return conditions.

Keep in mind that the rare problems represent the risk, and that this risk has proven higher for International shipments. Not just from my shop. I can point to a number of musical instrument stores with different conditions for International shipments.

Most of the touchy and odd features in purchase agreements were expensive.

[Folkmusician.com]

The reality is that for the most part, it is just not profitable to sell internationally (or at least not in a customer friendly manor). If it were, more people/businesses would be doing it.

In our case, it is not about the additional hassles with preparing shipments, but the shipments are a factor.

First up there is the risk of fraud, and it is a big risk. More often than not, it is simple misunderstandings, or various small problems with the buyers set off by a delay in receiving the package, or some other MINOR issue. Once this is set in motion, the minor issue can quickly escalate into a MAJOR problem.

I highly doubt that I would deal internationally if I were doing this as a private party with my personal instruments.

Here is a standard scenario.

Customer wants to order a mandolin. We discuss the instrument, make sure it is right for them, discuss setup, shipping, etc., and then work out the payment.
I have verified that this customer is legitimate, the address is correct.. everything looks good. I accept a credit card.
The mandolin is shipped off via Postal service (insured and trackable).
The mandolin makes it over to their country and into customs, then seems to stall out.
The customer contacts me and asks what the holdup is. I tell them that the last record of the shipments shows it is still clearing customs.
Another 3-4 days pass and the customer is now getting upset. Customer contacts me and I have no update for them.
Tracking is updated, stating that the package has cleared customs.
Another week passes and there is no update on the tracking. The customer is now getting very upset. I assure them that this is not uncommon. They now tell me that they have ordered other instruments from the USA and never had this problem. They demand that I resolve this NOW.
I tell them that there is nothing I can do at this point.

The customer has had enough. They want to cancel the order and get a refund. I explain that we need to file a lost package claim, but they do not want to hear it. They are done with this and if I do not refund them now, they are going to contact the credit card company.

I now have two choices. Either credit their card, or wait for the chargeback, which will go through and then cost me a chargeback fee as well (multiple chargebacks also raise my merchant account rate).

I credit their card, and file a lost package claim. The customer wants to put this behind them, and does not help with the insurance claim.

From this point, a few things can happen.
Insurance claim requires the receiver to go down to their local post office and fill out a form, and the customer does not do it. Insurance claim does not go through.

Package shows up as delivered, the customer has already received the refund, and does not respond. I can't just re-charge their card.

The package is delivered, the customer verifies this, but does not want it. I have to attempt retrieval at my expense.

The package is retrieved, whether the customer refuses it, returns it, etc... I am only out a couple hundred in shipping.
----------------------

There are a lot of factors involved, but I have had to deal with this basic outline, and not just once. :)

Since we are dealing with high-dollar - low profit items, it will take quite a few smooth transactions to recoup the loss. Even if most international transactions go well, the occasional sour deal can quickly put you in the hole.

Accepting PayPal is even more dangerous than Credit Cards. Checks and Money Orders cannot be verified. If these were bad, there would be no way of knowing it, even with a reasonable hold time.

This leaves us with Bank Wire Transfers. This protects us for the most part. The customer has little recourse. This now puts the customer at risk and most customers will not use this payment method.

By accepting the Bank Wire, we can make sure the customer goes along with the process if something goes wrong. If the package is late, lost, damaged, the customer changes their mind, etc., we will absolutely resolve the problem, but it can take time, and the bank wire prevents the customer from bailing out and leaving us to take the hit.

I imagine we lose 95% of potential international sales by only accepting Bank Wire Transfers. To Date, I have never had a transaction go bad where the payment was by Bank Wire. With credit cards and PayPal, customers are quick to chargeback without attempting to resolve the problem. Why? Because they can. :)

I don't blame the customers at all. If I were in their position I would also be frustrated if my package were late, or there were additional unexpected duties and taxes. The difference here is that I do this for a living and will see it through, they are most likely doing this for enjoyment and when it becomes stressful, they just want out of the transaction.


Despite all the troubles, we do a fair amount of business internationally.

[RichM]

I've shipped several instruments across borders without issue. But I have definitely had issues with a few:

1. A mandolin I shipped to Canada arrived damaged. I filed a claim with USPS, who said they couldn't do anything until they got a response from Canada Post. Canada Post never responded. USPS said there was nothing further they could do.

2. I received a mandolin from Canada via FedEx. A few weeks later, I started receiving dunning notices from FedEx for import duties. It took forever to work this out with FedEx who continued to send threatening letters.

3. While this isn't an international issue, it was the most shocking PayPal issue that I've been exposed to. After completing a very successful transaction where I purchased a mandolin from a seller in California, I received what appeared to be a customer service survey from PayPal, asking if I was pleased with my transaction. Like most such surveys, I ignored it. A few weeks later, I was notified by the seller that PayPal had frozen their account and would not allow them to access any funds because the buyer (me, apparently) had never received the item. They had hit a brick wall with PayPal. Apparently, that "survey" was meant to confirm that I'd received the mandolin. I emailed PayPal stating that I had received the mandolin and they should turn over the funds to the seller promptly. I got a form email back stating they could not do that, because the issue was now under investigation. I called them directly (yeah, try finding a phone number for PayPal... it ain't easy), and spoke to a series of the most ridiculous bureaucrats I've ever met. Ultimately, the seller got their money, but PayPal held it up for a month... over nothing.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Some countries have different size limitations on the package. I had to "reconstruct" a box to reduce the length by 1" to be able to ship it to Taiwan. Shipping to Europe and even to China didn't have this size restriction - or it was a larger allowable size. I've shipped to Canada, Ireland, France, Norway, Australia, Taiwan, and The Netherlands. No problems apart from the length of shipping and the Taiwan size restriction. I have no idea what the customer on the other end had to go through as regards Duty, VAT, Customs, etc.

[bernard morand]

What kind of music do you play Bernard? I'm curious as I get together with friends a couple of times a month to play folk music of France. I'm lucky (Well, not everyone would think so) enough to know 2 enthusiastic amatuer hurdy-gurdy players and the music is really delightful. It sounds fabulous on the mandolin. I wish it had a higher public profile.

Sorry for the hijack folks.

By the way Bernard, your English seems perfect.

Thanks Steve but you did not hear it!
As a beginner I play bluegrass and celtic tunes. I have actually good time with medieval music learning it through Allan Alexander booklets. If you are curious I have just told my whole story on the thread dedicated to the discussion of how we came to mandolin playing.
Enjoy hurdy-gurdy with your fellows!

[bernard morand]

Hi Bernard,

I like French music a lot. Had a great time at St Chartier two years ago.

If you live in Normandy, you are not far at all from Brighton, England where there is a shop with a huge selection of mandolins including several American makers.

It's called The Acoustic Music Company, and you will find a link to them on the home page of Mandolin Cafe (look for the British flag).

Yes I had tracked them down Thanks for the tip. I have only the Channel to cross. I see that Trevor himself said here that he has managed to install international business. Will go and visit his shop given that he seems to sell what I am searching for (Weber Hyalite, Gallatin or something like that). I was hoping to save money in buying one second hand but the lots of problems people are telling here about direct transactions is dampening.

[grassrootphilosopher]

The problems arise where payment isn't firmly received before hand. ... .

Right. So no problem when paying for the item before shipping. (International bank transfers are quite easy to handle, though maybe not with some Eastern or African countries)


But once there are problems, the problems are difficult to deal with. ...

Right again, and you said that this is why the policies may be different when the item ships out of the country. And that´s okay with any decent buyer. If it is not, it´s not worth doing bussines with them.


Someone in XYZ indicates their package didn't get there. ...

FedEx has a tracking system. You get a tracking number and you allways know where the item is. Differnt thing with United States Postal Service. You get a tracking number also. But when the item leaves the country the tracking number is of no use anymore.

So for the sake of the argument, the FedEx tracking number indicates that the item was delivered. That´s the buyer´s problem (overseas or in the US, the difference doesn´t matter; he´s bought the item and it´s his concern to prove that he has not received it). Other way round. The tracking number indicates that the item was not delivered. Well that´s the seller´s problem, ain´t it (again it doesn´t matter if the item is to be delivered within the US or abroad).


Note I never indicated I wouldn't ship overseas.

Since you´re running a bussines, I reckoned so.


I just hold to a higher level of scrutiny. Keep in mind that the rare problems represent the risk, and that this risk has proven higher for International shipments.
Most of the touchy and odd features in purchase agreements were expensive

Not only agreed but you´re wise in doing so.

[thistle3585]

Here is my experience. I never ship over a border with anything other than a common carrier because there are too many different agencies to deal with in the event that there is a problem. I always ship using a commercial account versus taking it to a common carrier office and having them produce the label. The level of customer service is better with commercial accounts plus the import documentation will be automatically done when you prepare the label. The biggest thing, common carriers like commercial addresses. They hate residential addresses and charge extra to ship to one, plus you risk it getting left on a porch. Whenever you order anything from someone and you are having it shipped to a commercial address, then tell them that is the case. It may save you money and you will get better service.
Anything I ship ground goes UPS and anything that needs to be expedited goes FEDEX. Never send anything FEDEX ground or FEDEX Home Delivery. FEDEX will turn it over to the post office to deliver it and its impossible to track well.

Incidentally, I have had more trouble shipping to Canada than any other location. I ship about a dozen or so bridges to Canada each year and I bet everyone has been held up in customs. I've had to file additional paperwork to prove that it had been manufactured in the US or to change the harmonized shipping code to better reflect the item or provide additional invoicing.

[jim_n_virginia]

Bernard the MAIN reason people in the US only ship to CONUS is not because of shipping, hassles, etc. it is because most (not all!) are just afraid to deal out of the country.

If you live in the US and get ripped off by someone who lives in the US then you have some sort of recourse, heck you could even drive and go find them if you have to! LOL!

But if the person lives outside the US then you are just pfffft out of luck!

I think it is because most of us as Americans do not think globally like most of Europe does, but that is just my theory.

[Lefty Luthier]

I regularly ship mandolins all over the world. My one hard and fast rule is wire transfer, confirmation of clearance and then ship. Never had a problem, even to Africa, China, and Russia so as long as one goes about it correctly, the world is my customer.

[bernard morand]

Bernard the MAIN reason people in the US only ship to CONUS is not because of shipping, hassles, etc. it is because most (not all!) are just afraid to deal out of the country.

If you live in the US and get ripped off by someone who lives in the US then you have some sort of recourse, heck you could even drive and go find them if you have to! LOL!

But if the person lives outside the US then you are just pfffft out of luck!

I think it is because most of us as Americans do not think globally like most of Europe does, but that is just my theory.

OK Jim . I was wondering wether something like that could be true for a lot of persons. The relationship of people to music seems very different in your country than in mine (whichever this music can be but more especially within bluegrass and OT). Music seems to be a great part of the cultural identity of american people and thus mandolin can be a symbol for its aficionados. I was wondering to which extent this cultural identity doesn't explain the great frequency of CONUS in ads: a kind of habit preservation of this identity? It is quite different from your explanation at first sight (wish to get the buyer at hand) but in fact it is the same thing. The buyer has to be among brotherhood.

[man dough nollij]

Music seems to be a great part of the cultural identity of american people and thus mandolin can be a symbol for its aficionados. I was wondering to which extent this cultural identity doesn't explain the great frequency of CONUS in ads: a kind of habit preservation of this identity? It is quite different from your explanation at first sight (wish to get the buyer at hand) but in fact it is the same thing. The buyer has to be among brotherhood.

Bernard, I seriously doubt if that has ANYTHING to do with it! If I have a mandolin to sell, I'm not thinking of preserving any brotherhood, or identity. I'm just hoping someone will buy it.

Being a little sentimental, I'm hoping that someone will buy it who will really play it, take care of it, appreciate it, and enjoy it. That person could be in Nigeria or New Mexico.

I think the posts above about getting burned on international transactions explain it all. People just aren't willing to risk getting screwed by FedEx, buyers, or the customs folks. That's at the root of it. Yep.

[Steve L]

The average American tends to be uninterested in folk music and thinks a mandolin is a ukelele. And more and more of our " iconic" instruments are made in China. People tend to not sell overseas because it's harder and they don't have to.

[Folkmusician.com]

Not to drag this topic out, but in the past week I have had three mandos go out internationally.

Problem number one.... I have the mandolin packed and ready, fill out all the forms and find out that I am out of the holder for the customs forms. It really shouldn't be a big deal, though it turns into one. The post office requires you to use their holder (and it does work well so I can see why). These can be ordered online, but this takes about a week. So it is off to the post office to get some.

Our post office is always packed at peak hours. Often you have to wait for a parking spot. A long story short, It took over an hour to get this package out. Partly my fault, but still a lot of time when there were other things I needed to be doing.

Just today..

I have shipped a lot of instruments to the UK in the past, and some very recently.

Last week I sold a mando going to the UK. I wasn't able to get it out Friday, and then we had the 3 day weekend here. Now we are going on 4 days, and I want to make sure I get this out today.
While processing the shipment, up pops this message. Apparently new rules prohibit me from using "United Kingdom" as a country on the address or customs forms. I am supposed to use LONDON, WALES, SCOTTLAND, etc (apparently I can use Great Briton, but it is not preferred). All I have for an Address is UK, so now I have to contact the customer and ask them. One more delay with the package, and more trouble.

This new rule must have just come about. Of course the customer is probably thinking "all my other package from the USA were addressed to the UK and were fine". This will be an ongoing problem, since now I will also have to do this with all orders that are from the UK.

A good portion of the issues could be avoided, but how is the average person supposed to know all this stuff. If someone doing it professionally has this many problems, I can only imagine the person doing it for the first time, and shipping off a high dollar instrument. It would be very stressful. :)

I will countinue to ship internationally (in fact I have three pending), but it sure can be a pain.

Rant over. :)

[Lee]

OK, for you Canadian people: Is there an equivalent to our Postal Money Orders?

[AW Meyer]

OK, for you Canadian people: Is there an equivalent to our Postal Money Orders?
Yes. There are Canadian postal money orders.

[epicentre]

OK, for you Canadian people: Is there an equivalent to our Postal Money Orders?


Yepper, Cdn Postal Money Order. In any funds, U.S., Euro, etc.

As secure as an American "International" money order.

Any instruments I have sold to folks in the US have been paid for by US International money order. Only payment I accept.

Anything I've bought from the US, paid for by Canadian Postal money order in US funds.

Everything ships by Canada Post, insured, with tracking. No problems so far.

Don't even MENTION FEDEX.::crying:

[Folkmusician.com]

I will play devil's advocate here. :)

Money orders are one of the most often counterfeited things. These are much easier to counterfeit than money.

Money orders, Certified checks, etc., are only safe if you are able to cash them at the source or you have some way to verify that these are good. If these are deposited into your bank account, and are counterfeit or cancelled, you may not find out for a month or more at which time your bank takes the funds back (we will assume that you have already shipped off the instrument).

Roll the dice, the odds are in your favor.
This kind of thing is happening all of the time. Odds are you will be fine in your transaction. Especially if you do your best to research the other party. Mandolins are not a MAJOR target, but I have noticed crooks moving in on the acoustic instruments more and more.


SOME money orders (not all) can be cancelled by the sender before a specific amount of time. A legitimate money order is purchased, sent off, then cancelled before it arrives (yes, this has happened to me). You receive the MO, deposit it, send off the item, and weeks later see the debit in your account.

The majority of people working these games are out for quantity vs. quality. They will not put much effort in the scam and are easier to detect. There are a few that are very good at it and willing to put in the time to do it right.

Think about this... If you were looking for a segment to target and decided on mandolins and wanted to work it correctly, you would impersonate someone that had some verifiable history, you could make an account on some forums and participate, create yourself a website for your band and buildup a good history for yourself, a MySpace account, the list goes on and on. Be willing to talk on the phone, haggle, etc.. This is a con game. When they do hit, they make as many transactions as possible in a short time. By the time anyone knows what happened, it is too late. It is more than worthwhile for the criminal. They might be running 5 - 10 niche schemes like this. Combine this with identity theft and you have a very dangerous combination. If they even get 10 items that can be sold off for $1000 each, they have plenty of money to relocate and move on to the next target. Once this is up and running, they can prep victims months in advance. This much work is not worth it to rip-off one or two people. On a large scale, it becomes very profitable. Just remember, there are smart criminals out there that take pride in their job. :)

Here is some good reading:
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/documents/08public-advisory-counterfeit.pdf

[Jim Garber]

I once sent two violins over to a friend in Japan and it ended up getting to him around 3 months later. it was caught up in customs. I also bought a couple of old sheet music books from an eBay seller in France and it came to the US, got caught up in our customs and then was sent all the way back.

Just recently I bought a lot of new old stock mandolin bridges from a seller in the UK and it has not arrived at all. The seller graciously refunded my money. if it does finally show up I will send her the money. What a real pain.

I ordered strings from Germany a few years ago and the shipping was exhorbitant. Luckily I had a friend who would be visiting her dad in Munich so I had them ship to him and she brought them back to me here.

[epicentre]

""Roll the dice, the odds are in your favor.
This kind of thing is happening all of the time. Odds are you will be fine in your transaction. Especially if you do your best to research the other party. Mandolins are not a MAJOR target, but I have noticed crooks moving in on the acoustic instruments more and more.


SOME money orders (not all) can be cancelled by the sender before a specific amount of time. A legitimate money order is purchased, sent off, then cancelled before it arrives (yes, this has happened to me). You receive the MO, deposit it, send off the item, and weeks later see the debit in your account.""" Quote Folkmusician::

True enough. I usually look up the name via Bell, check the address and the phone number. They hopefully will do the same to me. Anything I do is legit, so anyone can check all they want. Here I am. No PO box etc.

A generous amount of paranoia is called for these days, as there is a lot of scum floating about out there. However, everyone I've dealt with on this forum has been genuine and honest in their dealings.

E.bay, I don't touch. Once burned, twice shy. Guess I'll just have to miss all those real hot deals.

I don't think a US postal or Canadian postal money order can be cancelled.

As far as a counterfeit money order goes, well, they probably can be checked also, if you're suspicious. I know some folks in the PO, and will ask about that. If a crook tries hard enough, they can "git ya" I guess.

In the final analysis, usually common sense and caution prevail. Ya think??:confused:

[bernard morand]

Seems that I have been particularly lucky with my last transaction with the United States. I purchased the A Weber Gallatin advertised by Mandomutt lately onto the Classifieds. I paid instantaneously (on my computer) from France via Paypal. They took me $25 over the official exchange rate. It needed 8 working days to come to France while 6 to 10 were advertised by USPS. The mando arrived in very good shape and condition. It fits well the description given in text and photos by Kevin Douglas from Mandomutt. The parcel was trackable on the USPS site and from the French Postal service too. The only problem is that their parcel identifiers are not the same and that I don't know how it would have been possible to relate the one to the other if necessary. I don't know the extra work Kevin Douglas from Mandomutt had to do but I thank him very much for that. He had to fill in a quite simple Custom Declaration and probably to pay some tribute to Paypal too. This is the darkest point in my view. Installed in the essential role of third party, Paypal benefits of some kind of monopolistic advantage.
Yet I am now the happy learner of Gallatin playing. There are also trains that reach the station in time! Fortunately.

[JeffD]

Music seems to be a great part of the cultural identity of american people and thus mandolin can be a symbol for its aficionados. I was wondering to which extent this cultural identity doesn't explain the great frequency of CONUS in ads: a kind of habit preservation of this identity?.

Most folk in this country don't play any musical instrument, of the minority who do it is most likely to be a youngster with a band instrument in a public school music program (trumpet, clarinet, flute, trombone, saxaphone, etc.) or to be a guitar.

Playing a musical instrument is so far down the list that it doesn't even appear on those marketing surveys of hobbies and activities that one gets with the warranty application on a new household appliance. Playing music comes after basket making, stamp padding, and devotional reading.

To our shame, the most iconic musical symbol of our culture nowadays would be a scantily clad drunken blonde.

[bernard morand]

Most folk in this country don't play any musical instrument, of the minority who do it is most likely to be a youngster with a band instrument in a public school music program (trumpet, clarinet, flute, trombone, saxaphone, etc.) or to be a guitar.

Playing a musical instrument is so far down the list that it doesn't even appear on those marketing surveys of hobbies and activities that one gets with the warranty application on a new household appliance. Playing music comes after basket making, stamp padding, and devotional reading.

To our shame, the most iconic musical symbol of our culture nowadays would be a scantily clad drunken blonde.

Oooh! these statements could very well apply to France. But they are really NOT what I was supposing for United States. I never travelled there but I imagined that every youngster had a thorough musical education if not in public school at least by private courses and instruction. I saw too that contests for each instrument are organised each year in every state of the country. I supposed that they attract the crowds and warrant a great fame for their award winners. I supposed that a sufficicient demand for instruments like mandolins had created a market as well as a semi industrial building activity. Last I supposed that you had some family traditions of playing together at home different kinds of instruments. Would it be a cliche going back to old time or vestiges confined to some small areas?

[MikeEdgerton]

While you'll find a large number of people that gather on a forum like this might have some family history of playing music together, the vast majority of Americans alive now don't. In earlier times before radios, record players and Televisions there may or may not have been more music played in the home.

[JeffD]

I never travelled there but I imagined that every youngster had a thorough musical education if not in public school at least by private courses and instruction. I saw too that contests for each instrument are organised each year in every state of the country. I supposed that they attract the crowds and warrant a great fame for their award winners. I supposed that a sufficicient demand for instruments like mandolins had created a market as well as a semi industrial building activity. Last I supposed that you had some family traditions of playing together at home different kinds of instruments.

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