How big are you?

[emitfo]

I suppose this could also have gone in "Theory, Techniques & Tips" because I will be asking what other similarly sized folks do. Someone posted the Mike Marshall video where he gives advice about hand placement, posture etc. and although I'd seen it before I didn't really notice what he said about hands because I've learned through the years to gloss over and/or ignore what players say about hands because my hands are quite small. But there is more to it than that--they're also (relatively) wide too! Marshall spoke about thumb placement being on top AND to leave space between the back of the neck and the web between your thumb and first finger. Well he can't have both! At least not with me in most circumstances. I'm not sure why it was a minor epiphany for me, perhaps because I've always just known I had small hands and hadn't really thought about it much because, well, thinking about it didn't make my hands bigger or my fingers longer!

But the real point of this is to gather some information and perhaps learn some techniques or tricks that other similarly advantaged or inflicted depending upon your point of view, might make us of. But first the information giving and gathering portion of our show:

According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand) (certainly not an unimpeachable source but it will do as a baseline, the "average" hand sizes are quite large...to me at least. I was watching a Jethro & Chet Atkins video on youtube when I notice how humongous Jethro's hands are!

The picture gives Hand Breadth, Length & Circumference. For me I'm leaving out the circumference and including Finger Length measured from the "first crease" just like the "first crease" below the hand at the wrist.

Breadth: 8.8 cm
Length: 17.5 cm
1st: 7 cm
2nd: 8 cm
3rd: 7.4 cm
4th: 6 cm

So, how do you measure up?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fc/HandAnthropometry.JPG[/CENTER]

[mandroid]

14 stone ;)

{FWIW my thumb is rather short, only one mobile knuckle}

I had to send my electric 5 string Pentaula off to someone like Steve Ryder
to have the neck shaped down because the original one was made to suit Alex Gregory who must have had fingers like a 7 footer , from how baseball bat like the neck was .. the big end .
Steve had his own 5 strings so shaved it down to be similar to his, then re lacquered it .

[and added 5 divided pickups in the bridge (RMC) and wired them up to
let me hook up to my guitar synth, too] :whistling:

L hand fatigue in a short time, is not an issue now.

[JeffD]

So you are between the first and fifth percentile of adult hands. Is that in the US, or in the world? If it is in the US then there are over a couple million people in the country with hands as small or smaller than yours.

While Marshall (and others) recommend the thumb run along the top edge of the neck, that doesn't mean it has to be flat on the top perpendicular to the fret board face. My hand length is almost 2 cm longer than yours, and I can't play with my thumb like that. The main thing is that the thumb be above the center of the back.

The gap is important thing, I find, or I lose speed and accuracy on my e string. If I had to chose between thumb being exactly on top of the neck edge, and mouse hole or gap, I would go with gap as being the more important one.

[man dough nollij]

There were a couple of pretty extensive threads on this a couple of months ago. I had just gotten an OM that felt like it was custom built for Michael Jordan, so I was curious if I just hand tinier-than-average hands.

Looks like your hands are about average size to me. Mine are pretty much the same. (I assume we're measuring the left hand, right?)

Try stretching your hand out as far as it will go, and measure from the tip of your pinky to the tip of your thumb. That's about 21cm or 8.27" on my left hand. Seems like that should be a good measure of how well we will reach the frets.

[Chris Keth]

Kind of interesting once we get a pool of data. I added a measurement just out of interest. I measured across the top knuckle of each finger for a measure of finger breadth.

length: 183mm (somewhere in the middle of the "small" 50%)
breadth: 88mm (just below the 50th percentile mark)

index: 73mm (18mm across the tip)
middle: 83mm (18mm across the tip)
ring: 72mm (16mm across the tip)
pinky: 59mm (15mm across the tip)

[John Flynn]

Breadth: 9.5 cm
Length: 20.5 cm
1st: 8 cm
2nd: 9.4 cm
3rd: 8.3 cm
4th: 7 cm

[emitfo]

Yes, I was measuring my left hand which is, for me, the fretting hand. I'd say my hands...and yours if similarly sized...are small. I included the finger size, which I haven't found online yet, because it's relevant to the task at hand, so to speak!:)) I know it's just a representative drawing but I measure the hand in the picture and the hand and palm are of equal length, with me my middle finger (where the "hand length" measurement is made) is 1.5 cm shorter than my palm length--which I'm sure means something fascinating to those palmistry masters amongst us!

That's also an interesting measurement: I got 19.5cm for mine at max stretch, on the 3rd measurement.

I could be wrong about this but I sort of got the sense, moreso from JeffD but a little from you, that you think I'm just whining but it's really not that (I have OTHER things I whine about!), I've accepted my small hands because, well--what else can you do? I know people who have bigger hands than me that wish they could play guitar and mandolin as well as I do (What fools, if you're going to wish you ought to wish to play like Thile or Jethro or Monroe!) so I know the primary factor in musical accomplishment is not entirely or even primarily hand size. Still, I admit I occasionally will notice the giant handed ones and envy them while wondering what I could do if I were similarly endowed! Exploring and researching is kind of my way of dealing with things and that's more of the impetus for this in my eyes. And if I misunderstood your meanings or implications then poobah to mebah!
:mandosmiley:


There were a couple of pretty extensive threads on this a couple of months ago. I had just gotten an OM that felt like it was custom built for Michael Jordan, so I was curious if I just hand tinier-than-average hands.

Looks like your hands are about average size to me. Mine are pretty much the same. (I assume we're measuring the left hand, right?)

Try stretching your hand out as far as it will go, and measure from the tip of your pinky to the tip of your thumb. That's about 21cm or 8.27" on my left hand. Seems like that should be a good measure of how well we will reach the frets.

[man dough nollij]

I could be wrong about this but I sort of got the sense, moreso from JeffD but a little from you, that you think I'm just whining but it's really not that (I have OTHER things I whine about!), I've accepted my small hands because, well--what else can you do?


I didn't think you were whining. I remember the first (and tenth, and 100th..) time I tried a closed G chord. I thought I must have unusually small hands, because it was just so far to reach. I've learned from reading those other "hand" threads that there are people with a lot smaller hands than ours who get around the fretboard just fine.

It's weird-- I wear large gloves, and could never get my hands in mediums. But the minute I try a difficult stretch (especially on an OM), I curse my little hands!

Edit to add: Here's a link to the previous "big hands (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49091&highlight=hands)" discussion.

[Mike Bromley]

It's not so much the size of my mitts, but the fact that they are made of cement.:crying:

[D C Blood]

What's the old saying? "Size doesn't matter" along with "it's how you use it" ;)...I've seen some mighty little kids (both sexes) with some mighty little hands, playin' some mighty pahrful, spectacular mandolin...As to hand position on the neck, it's whatever's comfortable that gets the job done. I've noticed my left hand changes position according to the chord, the reach (or stretch), rhythm or lead. Don't try to glue your left hand in one position...

[PhilGE]

9.3 cm Breadth
20.5 cm Length
21.6 cm pinky tip to thumb tip
22.8 cm circumference
7.5 cm index
8.3 cm middle
7.8 cm ring
6.6 cm pinky

[GTG]

Wee little paws here...

Breadth: 8.1 cm (1st percentile??)
Length: 18.9 cm (that's better - just below 50%)

1st: 7.1 cm
2nd: 7.7 cm
3rd: 7.2 cm
4th: 6.3 cm

Thumb-middle stretch: 20.9 cm

And yet, I don't find the G chop chord (or F#, for that matter) to be too bad. All the better.

[journeybear]

Breadth: 8.7 cm
Length: 20.3 cm
1st: 7.8 cm
2nd: 8.6 cm
3rd: 7.7 cm
4th: 6.3 cm

Thumb-middle stretch: 22.3 cm

The measurement that most audience members seem concerned with are the width of my fingertips, as in, "How do fit your fingers into those tiny frets?" (It's a trade secret.) Measuring across the fingertip at the point where the nail turns white, I'm getting 16 - 18 - 18 - 15. I'm most surprised about these - I thought the pinky would be substantially smaller, and the ring finger, in practice the weakest, is the same size as the middle one and bigger than the first. Hunh! I used to do most of the work (vibrato and bending) with my first, but for a few years now it's been the middle.

This is all kind of FWIW, but it's more to think about anyway.

[Richard Moore]

Length: 20.5 cm
Breadth: 9.5 cm
Thumb tip to pinky tip (hand spread out): 23 cm

[Richard Moore]

And they fit OK on a 1 1/16 nut fretboard!

[Lou Scuderi]

Breadth: 9.7 cm
Length: 20.3 cm
1st: 7.9 cm
2nd: 8.8 cm
3rd: 7.6 cm
4th: 6.5 cm
Thumb-pinky: 22.8 cm

Yes, my hands are like bricks, and my fingers are little sausages. Somehow, I can still play mando just fine.

[OldSausage]

I'm sorry, there's no way I'm getting out a ruler and doing this.

[JeffD]

I could be wrong about this but I sort of got the sense, moreso from JeffD but a little from you, that you think I'm just whining :

Naah. I know what whining sounds like, and you ain't it. :))

I was only saying that per the table your hands are at the small end of the normal range, and I don't think it is the smallness of your hands that requires you to "chose" between thumb on top edge and gap from neck to hand. I was thinking that something else was going on, perhaps trying to keep the thumb perpendicular to the fret board.

Between the two, thumb above the center line of the neck and as close to the top edge as you can consistent with some gap between hand and neck should work for you.


What really helped my left hand was taking fiddle lessons. It all kind of "came together" for me after only a handful of beginner fiddle lessons.

But, all that being said, you know your hands better than anyone, and what ever you can manage that is comfortable, relaxed, and gets your fingers where they need to be is what you should go with.

[SternART]

Mike Marshall has large hands, and David Grisman's are on the small side......hmmmm

[mandomania7923]

I feel so small! breadth:6.5 Height:16.3

[Mandoist]

Weird!

[Mike Bromley]

Weird!

I'm with ya on that....:cool:

Hey, but if ya can't be Kooky in here, where?

[Jeff May]

I guess I have "smallish" hands, funny, I never really thought about it until I read this thread. My hands are about the same size as the OP, a little longer in overall length, finger length is about the same. But I have a pretty good "stretch" between my thumb tip and pinky tip, 23 cm. I've been playing the guitar for a long, long time and the mandolin for a couple of years now. I spend a lot of time playing scales and exercises in the four finger closed position. I think that really helps with the stretch and keeping the tension out of the left hand. I wouldn't even think about it. You got what you got. Just play the thing and let the muscles develop.

[Ted Eschliman]

Weird!


I'm with ya on that....:cool:

Hey, but if ya can't be Kooky in here, where?

I didn't really think it was possible, but it looks like we are near to reaching the Last Page of the Internet (http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/lastpage.html).

[sgarrity]

I just getting a good laugh envisioning a bunch of mandolin players sitting at their desk at work with a ruler measuring their hands and fingers. :))

[Chris Keth]

I just getting a good laugh envisioning a bunch of mandolin players sitting at their desk at work with a ruler measuring their hands and fingers. :))

Guilty, but no desk. I'm in a bakery.

[Jim Rowland]

Yep,yep,yep. We can all work around the obstacles with practice and determination. Elton John has small hands. He can't play like Garth Hudson,but he gets by. I think my smaller hands helped me in my career as a broadcaster..you know..wee paws for station identification.
Jim

[emitfo]

Overall a successful thread--Thanks for the responses! I looked at some hand sizes of 20+cm and I imagined what I could do with an extra 2.5+cm and that was fun! Mostly though I guess it's good hearing from others with smallish hands and all the positive responses are great to hear plus, of course I can't resist a bad pun (is there any other kind?) wee paws!:))

I just go through these times where I feel completely inadequate as a musician. I guess it's to balance out those times when I feel invincible as a musician!

[Mike Bromley]

I didn't really think it was possible, but it looks like we are near to reaching the Last Page of the Internet (http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/lastpage.html).

Judging by that avatar picture, you've been in the Cesium Schnapps cupbord again. SFcP. Off the Isotopic, yes.:crying::confused:

[Marty Henrickson]

Methinks digital agility is more pertinent, but what the heck?

Breadth - 9.0 cm - 50th percentile
Length - 20.3 cm - between 50th and 95th percentile
Index - 8.0 cm
Middle - 8.9 cm
Ring - 8.1 cm
Pinky - 6.6 cm
Thumb-to-pinky reach - 21.0 cm

So, I've got big, dumb hands.:crying: I still have fun playing, and not everyone runs from the room when I pick up an instrument.:))

[Bob Borzelleri]

I'm sorry, there's no way I'm getting out a ruler and doing this.

Today, hands; tomorrow ?

[sloanypal]

Breadth - 8
Length - 19
Index - 7.2
Middle - 8.1
Ring - 7.5
Pinky - 5.9
Thumb to pinky stretch - approx. 190

So...not only small hands, but double jointed as well which makes it hard for me to stretch...FFcP is KILLING me. :)

[Ken Sager]

Breadth: 9 cm
Length: 22 cm
Thumb to pinky stretch: 26.5 cm (10.5")

[sunburst]

So, I'm sitting at my computer, struggling with my standard sized mouse, and finding out that my hands are not much bigger than the 50th percentile! If that's so, why are mice so small?!

[Chris Keth]

So, I'm sitting at my computer, struggling with my standard sized mouse, and finding out that my hands are not much bigger than the 50th percentile! If that's so, why are mice so small?!

That's funny. I actually look for smaller than normal mice for my computers. I had a really small one for a while that I didn't actually have to move my hand to use. I set it very sensitive and I could just move it within my planted hand to cover the screen.