Bill Monroe's chords

[lubomir]

Hi Monroe fans,

I'd like to know how Mr. Monroe played Am, Em and maybe the other chords (in a different way comparing to the standart bluegrass chords). When I hear his music, for example Ashland breakdown, I can hear that he played Am in a different way comparing 9735 or 2235 (fretted positions on GDAE). I found out that in most cases he played E maj as 467x, D maj in a similar way just shifted down the fretboard. I'd like to know more about his chord playing as there're no information about this topic. Thanks for advising!

[AlanN]

Great question from afar.

Funny how the inventor of a style of music (and the inventor, at least the popularizer, of that style's chordal accompaniment) didn't do much of what has since become 'standard fare' in that style.

He certainly did the 7-5-2-3 for G. I think I saw him do 7-5-1-3 for G minor. For D, he rarely did 7-4-5-2, as you note, he did 2-4-5, at least in later years.

For minors, I think he mostly laid back and let the bass and guitar get the chord. I'd like to know this, too.

[Charley wild]

I think this answers a question I have about the D chord. I saw Curly Seckler doing a quick D on a video where he left his pinky (In G) and swapped his other three fingers around real quick for a D chord and right back to the "standard" G. My book doesn't show anything like that for a D chord. Is it the 7452 mentioned above?? Thanks,
Charley

[Jim Broyles]

In most video clips I've seen, Bill used the 2-4-5-x shape and movd it around for his V chord. If he was in A, he'd use 7-4-5-x for D and 4-6-7-x for E. The old black and white "Uncle Pen" with Bobby Hicks on fiddle and "Georgia Rose" with Bobby on banjo show it clearly.

[swampstomper]

I think this answers a question I have about the D chord. I saw Curly Seckler doing a quick D on a video where he left his pinky (In G) and swapped his other three fingers around real quick for a D chord and right back to the "standard" G. My book doesn't show anything like that for a D chord. Is it the 7452 mentioned above?? Thanks,
Charley

Yes, that's one standard way to quickly flip G and D. The 1st finger moves from the 2nd to the 1st string on the same fret (B -> F#), the 2nd finger moves over from the 1st string 3rd fret to the 3rd string 4th fret (G -> F#), the 3rd finger just moves over one string from 3rd to 2nd (G -> D) so you go from G: D-G-B-G to D: D-F#-D-F#. The pinky stays anchored, which is the one advantage I can see to this form -- you don't have to look at the fingerboard to know where you are, there is no shift of hand position.

As you may have noticed this D shape has two 3rds but no 5ths, also the 3-finger chop part (bass 3 strings), so the shape 245x (or 2452 with a barre, or 2355), which include the A note (two in the last form) sound stronger.

[Charley wild]

Thanks Swamp, I tried it last night as was pretty sure. But being new at this it's better to KNOW for sure! My fingers aren't very enthused about that swap at this stage of the game but I'll keep at it! lol

[lubomir]

Thanks to anybody who's contributed to this thread.

[swampstomper]

Lubomir, no problem, I can pay Slovakia back a bit for the pleasure I get out of watching and jamming with Michel Barok and other Slovak players at the European World of Bluegrass in Voorthuizen (NL) -- next week!!

Charley, that G-D flip is a long stretch and I think got established by Monroe, but I don't consider it a particularly good voicing, and also not easy for beginners or small handed people. For G-D it's usually actually G-D7 for which an excellent voicing with no stretch and minimal hand movement is:

G (3/R/5): 455x
D7(no root) (5/3/7): 243x

The bass or guitar is playing the root and you get the whole flavour of the D7.

[Charley wild]

Lubomir, no problem, I can pay Slovakia back a bit for the pleasure I get out of watching and jamming with Michel Barok and other Slovak players at the European World of Bluegrass in Voorthuizen (NL) -- next week!!

Charley, that G-D flip is a long stretch and I think got established by Monroe, but I don't consider it a particularly good voicing, and also not easy for beginners or small handed people. For G-D it's usually actually G-D7 for which an excellent voicing with no stretch and minimal hand movement is:

G (3/R/5): 455x
D7(no root) (5/3/7): 243x

The bass or guitar is playing the root and you get the whole flavour of the D7.

Again, thanks. I'll try the D7 when I practice my chops tonight. I do a half hour of chords with a rhythm track every time I practice before I work on anything else. I LOVE rhythm so am eager to learn different chord forms. Plus with chords I can go to jams quicker. If I can't play anythings else I'll just "chop" along. Good practice!:)

[Tbone]

[QUOTE=AlanN;665947]
He certainly did the 7-5-2-3 for G. I think I saw him do 7-5-1-3 for G minor. For D, he rarely did 7-4-5-2, as you note, he did 2-4-5, at least in later years.

[QUOTE]


Wait, wait. Bill Monroe played a barre chord for a D maj? HEATHEN! THAT AIN'T NO PART OF NUTHIN! BILL MONROE WOULD HAVE NEVER DONE IT THAT WAY!

[Jim Broyles]

Which one of those chords is a barre chord? Nobody said Bill played it 2-4-5-2, but rather 2-4-5-x which is not a barre. And he didn't play it that way only in his later years. Here he clearly uses that shape (4-6-7-x) for his V chord E when he was 45:

[earthsave]

I imagine Bill probably barred the 22xx A, which I guess is a doublestop.

[Jim Broyles]

Yep, the last chord of "Bluegrass Special" is the 2200 A. Technically A5 - the first known use of a power chord!

[Charley wild]

This is great guys! I'm writing these chords down in my little spiral notebook. The course book I'm using is a pretty good one I think but it doesn't have half this stuff so far. I have to tell you, my fingers don't like any of you guys so far but they'll come around. What did Bill use for his F chop? I'm using 578X. It sounds pretty good to me. (Did I write that right? This is the first time I seen that number system used!)

[lubomir]

Hi Charlie,

Mr. Monroe rather often played F maj as 23xx (in the scale of C, he played C as 523x) but I do think he played F as 578x in the Bb.

[onassis]

578x is right. I've started using that one also of late. Before that, I would always use 53x1, but I wasn't always happy with way that A course muted. More to do with my sloppy technique than anything else, but now that I've discovered the 578x, I've been combining that with x578 for the C to get a different sound. Not sure that I like that C yet, but wlways fun to have something new for the palette.

[Charley wild]

Thanks again everybody. This is all great fun as I can jump right over to my boombox and slap a rhythm track on and try this out. I'm having some muting problems also with some of the chords but I'm just getting started so I'm not too concerned at this stage of the game. Sure doesn't sound good when you don't mute properly though! lol
I'm not a slave to Bill but he is my mandolin hero and he set the standard. But I realize that there are other ways of doing things that are perfectly okay. But when in doubt "what did Bill do"?! Oh yeah, I didn't think of the 23xx. But why not?

[Fretbear]

Yep, the last chord of "Bluegrass Special" is the 2200 A. Technically A5 - the first known use of a power chord!

I'll sometimes slide that up to 9700 for another "half open" A.
Bobby Hicks....what he doesn't know about fiddling isn't important....

[OldSausage]

...I've been combining that with x578 for the C to get a different sound. Not sure that I like that C yet, but wlways fun to have something new for the palette.

Play the C 5578 and it will sound a lot better.

[onassis]

Play the C 5578 and it will sound a lot better.

Excellent suggestion! For some reason I'm not in the habit of fretting both the G and D courses with the index finger on those chords. Got used to doing a three-finger version, and now that's what automatically happens, especially "at speed". I've started examining some of the chord shapes I habitually use, to see if I like any others more or they sound fuller. Thanks!

[mandobsessed]

Wow, what great new chord shapes. I always played my C 5233 and D 7455. I tried out the new chords and they sound great. It'll take a while for my fretting hand to et used to it though.

[swampstomper]

The 5578 C, which can be moved up and down the neck, is pretty much *the* basic major chord: Root on the bottom for a strong bass (in case you are playing solo w/o guitar or bass backup), 5th, 3rd, and a ringing Root on top. This shape is taught first by Mike Marshall and Niles Hokkannen in their respective chord books (both still in print, I think). From this shape you easily have the maj7th, 7th, 6th, minor, minor7th just from the top two strings, leaving the bass as the strong Root-5th. Most people play this as a barre, the index across all four strings (only has to press on the D and G courses), with 2nd and 3rd fingers playing the higher notes.

[Charley wild]

Thanks, Old Sausage, I picked up on the 5578 also. Sounds great. Now I can use that with the 578X and up two frets for my G. I'm trying to get sets of chords in different areas of the neck just for fun. Also it helps with learning new double stops. I'm also working on some minors in different positions. This is and has been a great thread for me!

Charley

[OldSausage]

Thanks, Old Sausage, I picked up on the 5578 also. Sounds great. Now I can use that with the 578X and up two frets for my G. I'm trying to get sets of chords in different areas of the neck just for fun. Also it helps with learning new double stops. I'm also working on some minors in different positions. This is and has been a great thread for me!

Charley

While you're in that area, also remember there's another G nearby that swampstomper mentioned earlier: 455x, or 4557

[Charley wild]

While you're in that area, also remember there's another G nearby that swampstomper mentioned earlier: 455x, or 4557

Thanks OS, I wrote down the 455X and haven't tried yet. I'll try both variations later today when I get a chance to run some rhythm tracks. I'm having so much fun with this. I have some medical issues and probably rhythm is all I'm ever going to be able to do on the mandolin except for some shaky tremolo maybe. Doesn't bother me a bit. I love the instrument and rhythm is a study in itself. I look at it this way; if I can play good rhythm I can jam with anybody!:)

[onassis]

Personally, I think rhythm is usually more fun than leads! Just trying to find a pocket, experimenting with different voicings and chop styles, hammer-ons, pull-offs, walking from one chord to another, cross-picking; this is the really satisfying stuff for me. Gettin' a little crazy on leads is fun, but rhythm is what really makes a song!

[Charley wild]

Personally, I think rhythm is usually more fun than leads! Just trying to find a pocket, experimenting with different voicings and chop styles, hammer-ons, pull-offs, walking from one chord to another, cross-picking; this is the really satisfying stuff for me. Gettin' a little crazy on leads is fun, but rhythm is what really makes a song!

I agree! At my age my ego is more inward than outward. At this stage of the game I would enjoy playing for a band and me rather than the audience. Back in the 60's I was playing non-pedal steel in a startup Country band. We couldn't find a bass player so we settled for a rhythm guitar player. When he left the band we finally found a bass player, Rusty, our rhythm guitarist was so good we had a hard time adjusting to the bass! I've always remembered that.
Bill's best bands were the ones that keyed on his rhythm IMHO.

[Greg Wilson]

Any suggestions for a good chop pattern for Am and Em? Thanks ahead of time.

[AZStu]

Am 2235 the 3rd is flatted (compare to A 2245)

Em 4223 again the 3rd is flatted (compare to E 4224)

[Charley wild]

I'm using a 457X for Em. I haven't tried any other positions. It sounds pretty good for chops. I'm just getting started on minors and Dom7 chords so I haven't tried Am yet.

[AZStu]

Another thought

422X would be E5 (just has the 1 and the 5 note of the E chord)

This is a so-called power chord. Since it doesn't have a 3rd in it, it is ambiguous and can be played over Emaj or Em chords. It's easier to finger than 4223.

[Greg Wilson]

Much thanks!