View Full Version : leadbelly v. bill monroe
roguescholar
Aug-09-2004, 7:34pm
which one, if either wrote "in the pines"?
is there somewhere I can go to find out who originally wrote a song? (like pines, or wayfarin stranger?)
cheers.
John Flynn
Aug-09-2004, 7:44pm
The tune has been variously attributed to Leadbelly, #and also to Clayton McMichen and Slim Bryant, who played with Bill Monroe and also listed as "traditional," so I guess there is some controversy about its origins. Leadbelly also performed the tune under the title "Black Girl" with slightly different lyrics. I do not know of one definitive place to find the authors of all tunes, but internet searches usually turn up answers to specific questions like that.
peterbc
Aug-10-2004, 2:11am
Clayton McMichen played with Bill? He played with the Skillet Lickers too, right?
John Flynn
Aug-10-2004, 6:31am
Clayton McMichen played with Bill? He played with the Skillet Lickers too, right?
He definitely played with the Skillet Lickers. I found one referece on the web that says he played with Monroe, but then I also found a fairly complete biography of McMichen that does not mention it. MiMichen was also not on the historical roster of the Bluegrass Boys. So I am starting to doubt that first reference. But who knows? I imagine in the late 20's and early 30's there were a lot of musical combinations that are not documented. Perhaps some of the Monroe historians on the site will comment.
peterbc Posted on Aug. 10 2004, 03:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clayton McMichen played with Bill? #He played with the Skillet Lickers too, right?
He played with the Skillet Lickers but I don't know if he ever played with Bill. However Bill was definitely influenced by McMichen and Gid Tanner's twin fiddle music.
GVD
Mike Bunting
Aug-10-2004, 4:14pm
I believe he mentions McMichen as being his source for Katie Hill.
Martin
Aug-10-2004, 5:25pm
Black Girl is a great song, recently was listening to an old Long John Baldry album. He does a great version of this.
martin
Chris Baird
Aug-10-2004, 8:43pm
Most versions of the song are under the title "Where did you sleep last night". The song is traditional (no one knows who wrote it). Everyone seems to make up thier own lyrics for it and I believe it has been recorded over 100 times. Leadbelly's version is my favorite.
peterbc
Aug-10-2004, 11:21pm
Nirvana also recorded it, I think I remeber seeing in the liner notes that they attributed it to Leadbelly, but probably that's just where they got it from. Interesting comparing all the versions of it though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
re: Ledbelly/Monroe. There is a long-ago published book(hardback) entitled "BOSSMAN" that illustrates - quite well - the "similarities" of style/artistry/personal traits, etc. between these two respective "giants" of their genre(s). If anyone is interested I can cite date, publisher, etc. - We(U.of DELA Library) have it in our collection. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
Bob Sayers
Aug-11-2004, 5:11pm
Folklorist Judy McCulloh at the University of Illinois wrote her Ph.D. dissertation on "In the Pines" many years ago. As I recall, she identified more than 200 varients of the song, some tracing back to the 19th century. I don't think that she was able to identify the song's "author" (and there probably is an original author back there somewhere, contrary to the popular belief that "folksongs" are anonymous group creations); but she's done the most research on the song to date.
Bob
evanreilly
Aug-12-2004, 7:58am
Jim Rooney's book covers Monroe & Muddy Waters, to the best of my feeble memory.
John Flynn
Aug-12-2004, 8:05am
wrote her Ph.D. dissertation on "In the Pines"
You can get a Ph.D. for that? Gahd, did I pick the wrong academic field! No doubt it was funded by some Federal grant.
Hey Evan... : THAT'S the publication I mentioned in my above post("Bossman"). Thanks for giving more info. I believe Rooney was "somewhat" on a friendly basis with Monroe. I doubt he knew him as you do.... and yes. THAT pic of Bill playing an "A" is in Rosenberg's book. I believe it's on stage at WSM with a VERY young(!) Bobby Hicks and Jimmy Martin as a Bluegrass Boys. Also.., I think you are the ONLY other Monroe biographer(!) that knows, remembers and appreciates the contributions of the late-great Joe Stuart - the "sideman" for ALL seasons. RIP Joe Stuart. Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
mando johnny : Yeah buddy!! - got mine in BILLARDS!! - It's been good to me... hee.. hee. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
evanreilly
Aug-13-2004, 1:59pm
Tom Ewing was/is a great admirer of Joe Stuart. He wrote and recorded a song about Stuart, "Old Friend", I beleive.
I like the note about how, when Monroe went to record "Jerusalem Ridge" he wanted a "stout" guitar man & called in Joe Stuart for the task of providing great guitar backup for that tune. #
Tom Ewing is the Bill Monroe scholar par excellance!!! #I have been known to write Tom about Monrovian obscurities.
Tom is still sifting thru the nooks of time searching out details of Monroe's history and music. #He is the one who adds this material to his column in Blue Grass Unlimted.
John Flynn
Aug-13-2004, 2:03pm
got mine in BILLARDS
Moose:
Well, at least that's something you can make a living at! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
evanreilly
Aug-13-2004, 2:16pm
I dug out my (autographed!!!) copy of Rooney's book; here is the info, in case anyone wants to search for it. I am not sure if has been re-published.
BOSSMEN: Bill Monroe & Muddy Waters
Editor: James Rooney
Hayden Book Company, INc.
ISBN # 0-8104-6106-4
In my opinion, this is a great book because Rooney based it on interviews with Monroe and he (Rooney) quotes Monroe extensively. #There are also lots of great pictures of Monroe and the various members of the Blue Grass Boys. #It belongs on the bookshelf of any serious bluegrass historian/scholar/player.
Evan: Thank you for mentioning - and honoring - the memory of Joe. If Big Mon is watching...., I suspect HE also would thank you. Have a good weekend. Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif