Flame/Curly Maple

[AeroJoe]

I have heard thru the grapevine that the Deering Banjo Company is no longer going to offer the "Calico" instrument (flamed maple neck & resonator, natural finish)...the reason being, as it was told to me, was that only 1 in 20-25 maple trees have the enough "flame" or "curl" that can be used in building an instrument that will accentuate this characteristic in the wood ...that this is actually a defect or retardation (for lack of a nicer way of putting it) in a maple trees that causes what we have come to know as flame or curly maple...lastly, you cannot just look at a maple tree and tell whether or not it will have this characteristic until after it has been cut down... #

Considering the above, are any of you mandolin builders finding it harder to obtain this wood as of yet? Or at the quality that you have used in the past? Do you foresee it becoming like Brazilian rosewood is now...obtainable, but at a very high cost? #
To be sure there is not an endless supply of it, is there?

[Chris Baird]

Figured maple is genetic, I'm not sure of the ratio to normal trees but I'm sure it varies place to place. I've heard of no shortage and don't forsee any trade emargos for it. It is a domestic wood and being so its future as a renewable resource(potentialy endless supply) is in our hands. Maple readily grows all over north america and it is just as easy to plant a tree with a genetic predisposition for figure as a plain tree. All wood is growing more scarce and expensive but I don't think figured maple is above this average rate of increased scarcity. You can, btw, tell if a tree has figure by looking at it from the outside.

[AeroJoe]

Thankyou for the info and correcting my mistake about maple trees...you guys that can tell a species of tree just by looking have my admiration...I was suppposed to have learned that in scouts...I got to where I could tell a pine from a beech, but that's about the extent of it...

[amowry]

Is it true that figure is genetic? I was under the impression that it is typically caused by environmental conditions.

[Dave Cohen]

Amowry, you are correct; it is not genetic. Hopefully, "Spruce" (Bruce Harvie) will reply with some more detailed info about the origins of figure in maple.

[Chris Baird]

It was Spruce who informed me that it was genetic. He has even planted trees that have the genetic trait for figure. But, I suppose I'll let him speak for himself.

[Chris Baird]

I've done a bit of reading and it seems the research into genetic causes has only recently begun. It seems to me that most proponents of genetic causality believe that genetics play a role in figure by making the tree more susceptible to the environmental conditions that may directly cause it. Figure is generally regarded as one of the least understood traits in wood. There is lots to read on the subject from a google search. There is a keen interest to find a genetic predispostion to figured wood as it would enable a profitable enterprise.

[Spruce]

"Is it true that figure is genetic? #I was under the impression that it is typically caused by environmental conditions. "

I think it's genetic, but try proving it... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

It would be a wonderful basis for a lifetime of interesting study.

I'll relate some stories about figure and genetics after I answer these 98 emails...
Just got in the door....

"Considering the above, are any of you mandolin builders finding it harder to obtain this wood as of yet? "

There is much more high quality wood available now compared to 20 years ago.

The trick is rescuing the "tonewood" from the river of logs that finds their way to the mills of the world, and with the hundreds of people running around looking for "tonewood" these days compared to even the not-so-distant past, naturally much more of it gets into the right hands...

[grant_eversoll]

mandoplyr said " You can, btw, tell if a tree has figure by looking at it from the outside. " Can you? I did not think you could and I had read an article about a guy who cuts slabs for gibson guitars and her said you could not tell.

I am not saying yout are wrong I was just wondering who was right? Bruce tell us what you know, can you tell before you cut the tree?

[Spruce]

"Can you? I did not think you could and I had read an article about a guy who cuts slabs for gibson guitars and her said you could not tell. # I am not saying yout are wrong I was just wondering who was right? Bruce tell us what you know, can you tell before you cut the tree? "

OK, if you take a small patch of bark off a standing maple tree (please make it a small patch if the tree will remain standing, OK?), you are basically exposing what the wood will look like when cut on the slab.

Here's a photo of 3 different trees (ignore the chunk of pearwood in front of them), and what they might look like right under the bark. #

As you can see, it is very obvious whether or not there is figure in a maple tree or not.

A tree without figure is about as smooth as a baby's butt...

So-ooo, just because someone "cuts slabs for gibson guitars" and gets themselves written up in the local paper, does not mean they know what they are talking about. #
But we all knew that... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

On the other hand, a lot of journalists aren't known for letting the facts get in the way of a good story, either...

[Chris Baird]

Below is a quote from Herold Beal and/or Terry Davis (whom co-wrote a fine and comprehensive short article found in the archives of the University of Alabama.)

"Ecological factors, such as site, and morphological features of form, bark characteristics, foliage, or position in the stand often suggest the presence or absence of figure in trees; these indicators generally are used with caution even by experienced producers of figured wood. Intensive studies made in Europe on correlation of bark types with figured wood in birch have shown that certain bark characteristics are indicative of the presence but not necessarily any particular type or quality of figure."

It seems that an experienced person would be able to determine if a tree had figure without even taking some bark off but would not be able to determine quality.

[Dave Cohen]

I thought that I remembered Leonard Hoadley writing that the cause of curly, quilted, etc., figure is not genetic, but I looked in the first edition of his "Understanding Wood" and I found that he didn't say anything about it one way or the other.

It occurs to me that this is the age of the polymerase chain reaction ("PCR"), which was used recently to sequence the entire human genome in about 3 yrs. So Spruce, maybe if you get one of those left coast biotech companies interest in it, it wouldn't take a lifetime or so to find the answer. Maybe only a year or so.

[Keith Newell]

Back to the original question about "is it getting harder to find" I would say yes. Prices seem to go up every time I order and when you check with many places they dont have to much. I was talking to the owner of Gilmer Woods in Portland Oregon two days ago and he told me 5 years ago he could buy figured logs for $30 a ton, so he would be into the log for hundreds of dollars. Now he said its the same log or more then likely a worse figured log and hes into it for thousands, and you always get some loss from the log so it makes figured pieces really expensive. He said people come with a load of wood now and they might have 1 or 2 good sets of figured instrument wood when before the load was almost all good so he just doesn't carry much like he used to.
I realize this is different than Bruce Harvies situation from Orcas Island Tonewoods because HE is the one going out and finding and cutting...(nice plug heh Bruce?)> Seriously, Bruce has great wood at great prices. Anyway, my 2 cents worth which believe me there are many with much more knowledge and experience.
Keith Newell
http://www.newellmandolins.com

[AeroJoe]

When I originally posted this thread, it just sorta caught me off-guard...it's the first time I had heard of an instrument no longer being offered due to the availibility (or rather, unavailibility) of a tone wood. I know about the brazilian/indian rosewood situation since Martin made the switch long ago, but this...this had a certain feeling to it I did not really like thinking about...

Not to mention all these graphite-body guitars now offered...not just the Rainsong brand, now there's 3 or 4 others...I'd bet someone, at some point, tries that for a mandolin if they have not already...

I'll say upfront I am /certainly/ no wood expert...but I do have two eyes, and with the possible exception of Paul Reed Smith Guitars, it seems to me that the figured maple used in mandolin building, while at the moment at a very high level in appearance (and more importantly, tone) it appears that the plane has leveled off...in other words, the instruments by any high-end maker are still quality and waaaayyy "flamey"...but they all seem to be at about the same level...I don't see the one mandolin every now & then like I used to, that just was head and shoulders above everything else...the last one that literally made me react with sudden intake of air, was Collings F5 #77, sold from Carmel Music some time ago...that thing had more "flame" than a forest fire and more "curly" than the Stooges...

[Stephanie Reiser]

Before my hobby was building mandolins it was building flintlock rifles, also using curly maple. Part of my study of early american industrial arts was learning how to discern a 'figured' maple tree by exposing a bit of the wood by removing a patch of bark.
Oddly enough, and something that makes me wince, is that in most of modern factory furniture industry figured maple is considered undesirable, and many lumber mills are unknowingly selling their figured maple logs to pallet fabricators. Next time you are in a lumber yard, go look at the stack of pallets. You will cry if you value curly maple as much as I do.
Stephanie

[Spruce]

Oddly enough, and something that makes me wince, is that in most of modern factory furniture industry figured maple is considered undesirable, and many lumber mills are unknowingly selling their figured maple logs to pallet fabricators. Next time you are in a lumber yard, go look at the stack of pallets. You will cry if you value curly maple as much as I do.
Stephanie
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Dale Ludewig]

[QUOTE]



Group: Members
Posts: 1115
Joined: Sep. 2002
Posted: Aug. 12 2004, 13:15 QUOTE
Quote (Amanda Lyn @ Aug. 12 2004, 03:37)
Oddly enough, and something that makes me wince, is that in most of modern factory furniture industry figured maple is considered undesirable, and many lumber mills are unknowingly selling their figured maple logs to pallet fabricators. Next time you are in a lumber yard, go look at the stack of pallets. You will cry if you value curly maple as much as I do.
Stephanie

Living in the midwest near a couple of sawmills and seeing lots of pallets in my area about an hour west of Chicago, I couldn't agree more. Plus, what some local retailers, specializing in hardwood, consider curly or flamed, is pale compared to what builders' need.

I've also heard recently that Honduran Mahogany is being cut (if at all) with extreme restrictions because it's been overcut. Brazilian Rosewood anyone? Does anyone else know about the mahogany situation?

Dale Ludewig

[AeroJoe]

As a Christian, I know I am not supposed to covet anyone else's possessions...Lust is even harder (no, not women) I mean like a nice Loar...but in the spirit of this thread, I'll confess my sins insofar as the co-worker of my wife purchased a piano in Richmond, VA recently. Normally, I would not be discussing pianos on the Cafe or anywhere else for that matter...but this one is a bit different...the WHOLE thing is made of brazilian rosewood...the body, the back and sides, the "lid" that you prop up with that stick or whatever you call it... even the bench that came with it. I know it is not veneer...it is solid as it can be, I am sure of it...you would not believe the quality of this wood...and the /size/ of it...
I admit it..I have coveted, lusted, and last nite /cussed/ over it..."D**N Cynthia, YOU don't play it, your son quit lessons, I can USE the thing...

"You'll just cut it up for guitars or mandolin or something"

"YOU D**N RIGHT!!! And I'll make picks, nuts and saddles out of those /solid/ ivory keys, and bridge/end pins out of the ebony ones!!! PA-LEEEEEZE sell it to me"...

She said "no" "for the time being"...and there it sits, collecting dust, being used to put magazines, a lamp, school books, a small radio(!) and other odds and ends on...

Man, if that thing was all flamecurlytigerstripeonceinalifetime maple, I might even think about murder... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (only kidding!)