Weber and Gibson F models

[Tim De Young]

Recently made Webers and Gibson F models are beautifully made with impressive woods but the ones I've played -admittedly not many- seem to be strong on tone but relatively weak on volume or "bark" (as compared to Collings and smaller shop Fs.) So, they get described as "woody" or "will be great when it opens up." The Collings and small shop mandos in contrast tend to be "banjo killers" but their tone tends to be too shrill from my tastes.

While I'm tempted to take advantage of the deals by paying $3-4K for a barely used Weber or Gibson, I wonder what y'all think about them in terms of bark, investment potential, and so forth?

[Bernie Daniel]

Welcome to the Mandolin Cafe!

My comment would be that I do not think it sounds like your experience is broad enough to support your contention. (my opinion).

I would say the modern Gibson & Weber mandolins are fully the equal of any mandolin out there including Collings or even the ones that cost several times more than the top line Webers or Gibsons.

I think most pickers want a strong mandolin -- but that is not a problem usually -- I have picked up very few new mandolins made either by big factories or by private luthiers that I thought were "muted". (PacRim bargin mandolins ---some are not so good some are outstanding cost considered or not)

Almost all decent modern mandolins are "loud" i.e., they have good projection.

People prefer the mandolin that they do --say Gilchrist, or Collings, Clark or Brentrup -- or Gibson or Weber because of many things -- tone, appearence, playability, familiarity, trust in the maker, or a million other things some irrational some intangible.

That's my view. Bottomline only you know what it the best mandolin for you.

[Tim De Young]

thanks Bernie. I agree that my experience playing different mandolins is not very broad which is a function of sticking with relatively few mandos over the last 30 years or so. I'm still curious about why the re-sale market for webers and gibsons seems to be relatively good (for buyers).

[jim_n_virginia]

I'm still curious about why the re-sale market for webers and gibsons seems to be relatively good (for buyers).

For the same reason why a Harley Davidson will hold it's price!

1. Both are American made
2. they sound good
3. everybody wants one!

:grin:

[frankenstein]

For the same reason why a Harley Davidson will hold it's price!

1. Both are American made
2. they sound good
3. everybody wants one!

:grin:
Jim , i have had some doubts about some Gibsons in particular and have ruffled a few feathers here on the caf'e with my opinionated ignorance, but i have to say what you say here is as compelling an argument as i have heard..if you ain't on the payroll you should be..:mandosmiley:

[Tim De Young]

thanks guys but I meant it the other way: Like a Harley, Gibson should have the best re-sale value among the American made large manufacturers but they don't. Compare their prices to Collings and I think you'll see what I mean.

[frankenstein]

don't go there.. :popcorn:

[G. Fisher]

thanks guys but I meant it the other way: Like a Harley, Gibson should have the best re-sale value among the American made large manufacturers but they don't. Compare their prices to Collings and I think you'll see what I mean.

One reason is that there are several more Gibson mandolins available. So, in order to sell the price my be lowered to attract buyers and then others follow suit to sell their mandolin.

I'll let someone else cover the multitude of other factors that have discussed here MANY times before.

[JeffD]

I played a Gibson F9 at the Gibson store in Nashville. It was pretty amazing - as good as one could want. Certainly loud, and great tone.

I borrowed a friends Gibson F9 and it sounded weak. Well the strings were in dire need of changing.

Ya gotta try a lot of em.

[Tim De Young]

thanks to all for the comments - sorry if I'm plowing the same field. I'm a newbie as they say. For what its worth, I went through quite a few Gibson and Martin guitars over the years and it finally dawned on me that there's better alternatives out there (I now own a Bourgeois and a Larrivee.) That seems to be the case with mandos as well. Keep the beat.

[pwkellar]

All in all it's what YOU like for what and how you play and your budget. I too have a Bourgeois guitar and agree you get more attention to detail and a very quality build from a smaller outfit like Dana is running. Mine plays like no other. Although, I have a '76 D-35 that will rip your head off if you're talking tone! To each his own. I just upgraded Webers (have a Big Sky now) and I feel I get a very good bang for my buck with Weber. They build a fair amount of instruments; however, their higher end instruments, in my opinion, can hold their own with anything out there for the price. Besides, you can call Tony and pick his brain and get your mando exactly how you want it. Try that with Gibson. When you find "the one" you'll just know.

[jim_n_virginia]

Jim , i have had some doubts about some Gibsons in particular and have ruffled a few feathers here on the caf'e with my opinionated ignorance, but i have to say what you say here is as compelling an argument as i have heard..if you ain't on the payroll you should be..:mandosmiley:

He asked WHY Gibsons and Webers hold their price.

It doesn't matter if the Gibson is not up to par, it's not relevent to the discussion because it is not what was asked.

The fact is that a Gibson will be easier to sell because it has name recognition just like Martin, Taylor, Collins etc. and thus one of the main reasons it holds it's value.

And as far as being on Gibson's payroll ... I WISH! In this economy I can use all the dough I can find! :grin:

[Rob Powell]

I played a Gibson F9 at the Gibson store in Nashville. It was pretty amazing - as good as one could want. Certainly loud, and great tone.

I borrowed a friends Gibson F9 and it sounded weak. Well the strings were in dire need of changing.

Ya gotta try a lot of em.

I'm guessing here that your experience was the definition of what a good setup will do and a good reason to have your instruments setup periodically.

[Bernie Daniel]

Dodolin: I went through quite a few Gibson and Martin guitars over the years and it finally dawned on me that there's better alternatives out there (I now own a Bourgeois and a Larrivee.) That seems to be the case with mandos as well. Keep the beat.

Which begs the question -- since you already knew the answer that you wanted why did you ask the question then?

Just to stir the pot?

[G. Fisher]

Which begs the question -- since you already knew the answer that you wanted why did you ask the question then?

Just to stir the pot?


He asked because he wanted to know if his experience with guitars would be the same with mandolins.

[Tim De Young]

What Greg said mostly. I know what I know and hopefully what I don't. I do like to stir the pot too. so far, I've learned some good stuff in my first thread and some of it even had to do with finding the right mando when she comes along.

[Bernie Daniel]

Yes I do believe that I mis-spoke. Beg your pardon.

[Big Joe]

If you are looking for long term return, the Gibson will beat just about anything out there. Historically they have increased in value continually. If you buy a new one you will not see the value increase for several years, but in a decade the used value is almost always higher than the list price when it was new. There may be exceptions from time to time, but that has been true over its history. Look at the Gibson from the 90's or even the 80's and they bring well over what the list price was new. Few mandolins have a history of that kind of value return over time.

If you are interested in a good mandolin that plays and sounds good, both Gibson and Weber are good choices. With any factory mandolin a really good professional set up to your playing style will help it go from a good mandolin to a great mandolin or from an ok mandolin to a really good mandolin. I have not seen a Gibson that could not be made very darn good to great with the proper setup. I think that holds true for most mandolins no matter where they are made and often who made it.

[tburcham]

My Gibson F5-G was outstanding in both volume and tone. I am presently playing a custom Weber Yellowstone with Red Spruce top...it will shake your toenails! I agree with Joe...most Gibson and Weber mandolins that are "good" can be made great with a good setup.
BTW...I've played as many small shop mandos as I can get my hands on (I own a Silverangel disressed F) and I haven't found any that are better than good examples from Gibson and Weber.

[JeffD]

I'm guessing here that your experience was the definition of what a good setup will do and a good reason to have your instruments setup periodically.

I agree entirely.

[Tim De Young]

No problem Bernie and thanks to all for the good info. Big Joe's views on Gibson's market value coming back up to list price and beyond over the years seems especially right to me based on what I've seen online, mostly on the Cafe listings. The same pattern also seems to be the case for many well made mandolin with good woods - over time, they dry out, become more resonant, and then its Katie, bar the door. So my focus is on finding a relatively new, but not brand new, one that has not yet started to come back up in value.

[LeoR]

Weber has dramatically improved in the last 2 years. I recently played one at the Mandolin Store in Wickenburg that was (no exaggeration) one of the best Mandolins I have ever played. I have been playing for 35 years so I have played a few mandolins. Awesome mandolin - great action, great frets, great fretboard, A1 perfecto workmanship, perfect intonation, loud, responsive - totally blew me away. If you haven't played a recent one recently - do yourself a favor.

BTW, Dennis Vance at The Mandolin Store is a first class guy.

[Tim De Young]

I have played a recent Fern and agree with you about quality Leo. It was not set up properly and the strings were old old, however, and so it sounded not so good. As several have said, that makes a huge difference. Music stores that don't get their products ready to play shoot themselves in the foot imo.

[Greg H.]

[QUOTE=Dodolin;658555]Recently made Webers and Gibson F models are beautifully made with impressive woods but the ones I've played -admittedly not many- seem to be strong on tone but relatively weak on volume or "bark" (as compared to Collings and smaller shop Fs.) So, they get described as "woody" or "will be great when it opens up." QUOTE]

Another consideration on the volume. . . . bring someone with you to play them. This has not always been the case but I have owned mandolins that seemed very quiet to the player, but seemed really loud to anyone 5 feet away. It may have been that the ones you tried were quiet (and could be improved with new strings or a better setup), but it could also be that the ones you tried just seemed quiet ONLY to you.

[Capt. E]

Consistently I hear people comment on differences between mandolin makers: Gibson, Weber, Collings in particular. What strings are put on at the factory in each case? I assume Gibson uses "Gibson" strings, don't know about Weber and Collings. Couldn't a big part of the differing opinions be different strings?

[allenhopkins]

IMHO, differences among individual instruments (talking about just the different pieces of tonewood, not even considering different strings, set-ups, picks, playing styles and acoustic environments) can be so significant, that generalizations of Brand X vs. Brand Y are of limited usefulness. Two consecutive F-9's out of Gibson's shop can sound distinctly different. So many of these threads contain "I once played a Yehudi, and it sounded (a) awesome/(b) like poo/(c) menza-menza" postings.

Investment potential -- well, you can quote George Gruhn, who thinks that quality stringed instruments are a good investment. In that area, Gibson's the most recognized brand, and the one you can probably sell to a mandolin "non-insider." But remember, every time you pick up that F-5G or Big Sky or whatever to play it, you're taking a chance with it's "investment potential." Scuffs and dings and fret wear on a contemporary instrument work against whatever appreciation of value time will bring. Is your Collings the "Loar" of the future? In 2075, will it be auctioned by Skinners or their successor, or will it be just another good quality used instrument? Who woulda picked that late '50's Les Paul guitars would be going for $150-200K? I might have walked into a music store 50 years ago and bought one off the rack; would have been a great investment. Or I could have bought a Gretsch Country Club, and it would now be worth a tenth as much, or less (Les?). Buying instruments for their investment value is a lottery, with better odds than Powerball, but by no means anything like a sure thing. These days, though, what is a sure thing...?

[mandolinbill1949]

I like the gibsons better in general but i have heard ken olmsteads weber on youtube it ranks up their with a loar to my ears

[mandozilla]

Dodolin said;

I'm still curious about why the re-sale market for webers and gibsons seems to be relatively good (for buyers).

I don't think the O.P. was asking why Gibsons and Webers hold their value but rather why do they seem pretty cheap right now in the classifieds, ebay, etc..."It's the economy St***d"...:grin:

~o):popcorn:

[Ken Olmstead]

I like the gibsons better in general but i have heard ken olmsteads weber on youtube it ranks up their with a loar to my ears

Thank you! I can tell you that it did not sound all that great when I first got it from Mr. Johnson MWH. I was so disappointed when it arrived. My old Yellowstone KILLED it in every way! However, I could hear a tonal quality in it that appealed to me and took a chance that it would break in. It did, a full year later. The amazing thing is that if I am jamming for an hour or two, sometimes it just seems like it explodes! Then the next day it is back to just great! Seems like it is not done doing its thing. Weird stuff.

Some builders are of the opinion, I tend to agree, that you can build a mandolin that will mature, open up and sound very complex tonally after some time. However, it will not necessarilly show well in the store. Or, you can build one for immediate gratification that will be loud a woofy right away but it is giving you most of what it has right there in the store.

I am not much into resale stuff. I expect to spend $100/month or so on my hobby. So let's say I buy a Weber Fern for $6k and after a year I sell it for $3900 (or whatever). Then I "lost" $900 on the transaction since I am happy to spend the $100/ month for my favorite activity in life! When you are getting started, you need to change mandolins a few times to find out what you like and what you don't. Then we generally settle in to one that we keep for awhile. Again, part of the cost of the hobby.

I lose WAY more money on my cell phone that I don't really need! :)

[grassrootphilosopher]

Recently made Webers and Gibson F models ... I wonder what y'all think about them in terms of bark, investment potential, and so forth?

I think that neither is a sound investment even though I might tend to believe that Gibsons may hold their value in the long run.

Just a thought: Gibson Master Models (even Derrington tenure ones) go for less than what they sold for when they were new. (A new Master Model will now sell for about 20-thousand USD while they were about 14 thousand USD a couple of years back)

A better investment migth be one of the small shop builders. But here it is interesting how the market reacts. While builders like Altman and Kimble not only hold their value but also increase in value others that "have the tone" like Stanley seem not to apreciate in price even though they are held in high esteem.

And for what it´s worth, my opinion is that for the kind of money that Gibson calls up for their instruments there are numerous choices out there that are as good or even better (at least in the lower price section). Think of Horner, Buckeye, Sierra. If you are going top of the heap pricewise I think that Gibson is still worth considering, even though you might want to get a used Gilchrist, Nugget... for the same amount as a new Gibson Master Model (and save you the playing-in-time).

Weber, well it´s been a while (2001) since I´ve played one, and I was not impressed. Times may have changed but I seem to be biased. I also do not see any potential in them, since they do not have the Gibson "history/name factor" going for them.

[woodwizard]

I like Weber's but I REALLY like Gibson's. It's all a matter of what YOU like. IMHO