1933 Gibson F-10, shortneck!

[Goodin]

Now here is one you don't see every day. A 1933 Gibson F-10. I had no idea Gibson made an F model with a short neck. Would love to hear comments on this one. What about that price?

http://www.retrofret.com/products.asp?ProductID=3550&CartID=5732464182009

[f5loar]

Gibson made 3 prewar short neck fhole models:
The F-7,F-10 and F-12. After the war the first few batches of the F-12 were short neck and then went to long neck.
Many of the short neck F models were converted in the
70's to long neck models, hence the rarity of seeing an original one today.

[f5loar]

I need to add the F10 was the least made of the 3 and would comand the most price since all 3 were esecially the same with different inlays and binding. Price in line with what a collector would pay for a minty example of the F10.

[mrmando]

Gruhn has a nifty F7 (http://www.gruhn.com/photo/MF7525.jpg) in stock right now.

[Zigeuner]

They do look a little strange with the bridge set so far down. I'm also wondering if the tone might be affected with the bridge so far towards the bottom of the soundboard?


Here's where I lke the bridge to line up - like a violin, in the center of the F holes. :popcorn:


http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/gnm109/F-12BridgePosition.jpg

[Mike Bromley]

That's why many were converted to instruments with the 15th-fret neck join.

[Brian Aldridge]

I owned an F10 in the late 80s, the one pictured in the Gruhn/Carter book. I am thinking this is the same mandolin. It actually is a pretty good sonding mandolin. The string tension just feels a bit stiffer than an F5 scale does to me, but not a huge hinderance. I think my research back then revealed that only three F10s were ever built.

[mrmando]

What happened to Monroe's F7 after he got the Loar?

[grassrootphilosopher]

What happened to Monroe's F7 after he got the Loar?

Nobody found out. It´s a goner. The Smith book about Mr. Monroe reflects that he, Monroe, had several mandolins that he was not very careful about. According to the book some had been on loan to other folks, some were in a dressing room locker in the Opry... That does not refer to his main July mandolin and the other firepoker one. It didn´t leave me guessing why.

I think a comparison of sound qualities might be interesting if one refers to F 7´s, F 10´s, prewar F 12´s and current prime makers mandolins. Who is the prospective buyer of these prewar models since the mando-market is primarily dominated by F/A-5 aficionados (your average bluegrass and beyond) and F/A-2, 3, 4, jr and such devotees (oldtime, jazz, classical music...)?

[swampstomper]

Gibson has just announced the 75th anniversary "F7" (see "Messages" at the Café) but it has the neck join at the 15th fret, they say specifically to get the bridge into the optimum location on the soundboard.

[Glassweb]

not many players or collectors are after those short scale F models anymore. yes, they tend to sound quite good... but then you've got the playability/intonation issues. why spend 10K plus on one of these when you can get a masterpiece made by any number of current builders?

[Gary Hedrick]

There is an F12 version of the these short neck beasties at Music Emporium.....

Having played a bunch of F7's and one F12 and one F10 of these I have to agree with Steven on this....why pay the bucks for what is a lesser instrument......unique but lesser......

[mrmando]

Wow, so an F7, F10 and F12 are available simultaneously. It's a good time to start a shortneck collection.

[jefflester]

Now here is one you don't see every day. A 1933 Gibson F-10. I had no idea Gibson made an F model with a short neck. Would love to hear comments on this one. What about that price?

http://www.retrofret.com/products.asp?ProductID=3550&CartID=5732464182009
Still there since at least Nov 2007. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36043)

[Glassweb]

a beautiful example of a very rare bird... a friend of mine played this at the Christie's auction (where Retrofret acquired it) and said it sounded great. that said, they've been fishin' and wishin' with their 28K worm for a long time with no fish landed. For that amount of money you could buy a matched Kimble F5/H5 combo and never look back!

[Glassweb]

Wow, so an F7, F10 and F12 are available simultaneously.
It's a good time to start a shortneck collection.

you're on your own brother... have at it!;)

[mrmando]

Right, Steve ... uh, perhaps I should have said, "It's a good time FOR SOMEONE WITH MORE DOLLARS THAN SENSE to start a shortneck collection."

Though if I won the lottery, a "one of every prewar Gibson mandolin model" collection would be a cool thing...

[grassrootphilosopher]

not many players or collectors are after those short scale F models anymore. yes, they tend to sound quite good... but then you've got the playability/intonation issues. why spend 10K plus on one of these when you can get a masterpiece made by any number of current builders?

What are the playability and intonation issues? Is it the "stiffness" mentioned in a previous post? And just how good do they sound? I remember the Tone Poems CDs where the F 10 and the F 12 (both converted) sounded good and equally nice did the unconverted F 7 sound (even though a little "tinny"[?]; But the 40ies F 5 on the recording had the same sound caracteristics to me).

So what about it, would still anyone convert such a mandolin (like the Charles Johnson or George Gruhn F 7s), why yes, why not, would this make the instrument more playable, superior to a recent custom built mandolin or not...

What do you all say?

[Glassweb]

well, i once owned a F7 and it sounded really, really great. i've also played a F10 and it sounded equally great. you wanna hear a beautiful sounding F7? just listen to Monroe play Tennessee Blues! but there's a reason Grisman had Gil make longer scale necks for these instruments and there's a reason the new Gibson versions will sport a "normal" F5 scale length. i just think there's better ways to invest in a great playing, great sounding mandolin these days and at a much lower price point. but sure, if you got the dough either the F7 at Gruhn's or the F10 at Retrofret would be pretty cool instruments to have. my current under 10K pick would have to be the new Kimble F5 that Dexter just received at Carmel music...

[Bill Snyder]

Are these a shorter scale length? I would have thought the scale on these to be 13 7/8" just like the f-5's and f-4's, f-2's etc. Is it not? You know the f-4's and f-2's have shorter necks than the f-5's but the same scale length, that is why the bridge is moved further down the body.

[BradKlein]

Yes, it's my impression that these short necked models are the same scale length as the F5. So the playability issues are only that the neck meets the body at a different place. Like playing a 12 fret guitar vs a 14 fret with a cutaway.

I've played the Retrofret instrument and find it to be a lovely thing with a unique sound, and that's the appeal of many vintage instruments, I think. And of course the fun of collecting.

It's not always a quest for the BEST Whatever. Rather something different, that pulls a player in a different direction. Vive la différence!

[grassrootphilosopher]

well, i once owned a F7 and it sounded really, really great. i've also played a F10 and it sounded equally great. you wanna hear a beautiful sounding F7? just listen to Monroe play Tennessee Blues! but there's a reason Grisman had Gil make longer scale necks for these instruments and there's a reason the new Gibson versions will sport a "normal" F5 scale length. i just think there's better ways to invest in a great playing, great sounding mandolin these days and at a much lower price point. but sure, if you got the dough either the F7 at Gruhn's or the F10 at Retrofret would be pretty cool instruments to have. my current under 10K pick would have to be the new Kimble F5 that Dexter just received at Carmel music...

When the focus would be on the price range and possibly the price devellopment question, the Kimble F 5 at Carmel Music might be the way to go. Well with the Loar period F 4 at Carmel Music requesting 10.000,- USD those who bought one a couple of years back might be happy as well. From monitoring the price devellopment on short necked f-style prewar mandolins I gained the impression, that the prices are pretty stable over the last 4 years.

And I equally share the opinion about the thirties "Tennessee Blues" mandolin.

But what are the playability issues? The comparison with the 12-fret (to the body) Dreadnaught guitar comparison has a flaw. The sound of a 12-fret guitar is definately more balanced than a 14-fret (to the body) dreadnaught guitar. That might be why short scale prewar Gibsons (mind you they are 14-frets to the body just with a shorter scale) sound every bit as good (some say better) than a 14-fret prewar Martin dreadnaught. So if the comparison ought to apply here, it ought to be stated the other way round, though that would be incorrect also due to the fact that the body size stays the same while the scale is just shortened. :popcorn:

By the way, I think I was wrong stating that the prewar F-12 on the Tone Poems I CD was converted.

[BradKlein]

What happened to Monroe's F7 after he got the Loar?

That's an interesting question. Does anyone know with certainty if Monroe kept his F7, and whether he still had it in his later years. I assumed it had returned to anonymously circulate in the great pool of used instruments out there, but perhaps its whereabouts are known to someone.

As an aside, it seems to me that these instruments have little in common with, say, a new Kimble. I've sat across from both this 1933 F-10 and Andy Statman's Kimble, and they didn't sound much alike to me. Both very nice instruments, and I suspect, if given the choice, many players would choose one and many the other. Probably most pickers would know right away which one they preferred to own.

[Chris Keth]

That's an interesting question. Does anyone know with certainty if Monroe kept his F7, and whether he still had it in his later years. I assumed it had returned to anonymously circulate in the great pool of used instruments out there, but perhaps its whereabouts are known to someone.

As an aside, it seems to me that these instruments have little in common with, say, a new Kimble. I've sat across from both this 1933 F-10 and Andy Statman's Kimble, and they didn't sound much alike to me. Both very nice instruments, and I suspect, if given the choice, many players would choose one and many the other. Probably most pickers would know right away which one they preferred to own.

Supposedly near the end of his life he "lent" a lot of instruments that never found their way back to him. Who knows where it is now. Hopefully whoever has it knows and they acquired it honorably.