The Instrument or the Music?

[GRW3]

Continuing our navel gazing them...


Do you actually care about the instrument or is it the music it makes that is important? Is your MAS driven by luthiery or tone? If you lock into an instrument are you just unimpressed by the competition?

I ask this because I find myself at an odd juncture. I enjoy playing the new instruments at the music store but I no longer have a desire to acquire. There is only one pertinent question about a new instrument - does it sound better than what I have already.

When I play I focus on two instruments. My Eastman 515 and my CA Cargo. I could fool myself and say on the mando front it's because I keep the Eastman two point at work but I know if I kept it at home I would not be playing it. I suspect I could go through life with one guitar and one mandolin perfectly happy. I am not particularly sentimental about instruments so getting them and moving them on is not a problem.

So the thing I contemplate is living with one of each, what those 'one's should be and the implications for my musical journey.


gaze away boys...

(and girls too, of course, just paraphrase the old time music phrase "let'er go boys")

[woodwizard]

Hmmmm... Luthiery or tone ... that's easy ... Both!
Even when I'm locked in on a instrument like I am. I can still be impresed with others... For sure! I really dig my current mando but it doesn't stop urges for others. I've had an urge for another oval hole now for quite awhile. Let's face it ... They all sound different. Nothing wrong with having several. IMHO

[Jim MacDaniel]

Great questions.

I chose the mandolin because of the sounds that it can produce, the genres of music that it can partake in, and the fun I have in tying those two together myself.

As far as MAS goes, I must admit that several of the instruments I've purchased, and many more that I would love to own, are driven less by tone and playability than by looks. I do appreciate the tonal characteristics of a well made instrument, as well as the tactile pleasures that one provides, not only in terms of playability, but simple in touch and feel. However, I am a highly visual person, and I enjoy taking in the visual arts as much as listening to music, so I enjoy the visual aspect of the art of the luthier -- including design, fit, finish, color, and accents -- as much as, if not more than, the tone and feel of an instrument.

[CES]

Primarily how they sound...looks and name are good, and I'd love to have a nicer F-style, but my skills don't justify the price. I tend to be a "bang for your buck" guy and a deal hunter when I'm looking unless I know exactly what I want. If given the choice between a $4000 mando that sounded worse than a $1000 mando, I'd go for the tone over the name almost every time. Sometimes the deal hunting works out (my Guild D-40 6 string, which I got for a steal because of some finish checking), sometimes it doesn't (my ebay Kentucky mando).

Despite that approach, I do think you get more mando when comparing 2000+ dollar boxes to Asian imports (though some Eastman and Jade owners may fight me on that one)...maybe not always in tone, but definitely in fit/finish/resale...I play a Kentucky and a Flatiron pancake (actually my favorite of late) because I can't justify getting a Collings/Gibson/Rigel/Breedlove/small builder for what I do, but that doesn't mean I think my 350 dollar import is better than they are!!

[JeffD]

Great questions.

I chose the mandolin because of the sounds that it can produce, the genres of music that it can partake in, and the fun I have in tying those two together myself.



Wow. More thought out than me.

I chose the mandolin because it was so much fun to play.

I didn't even know anything about the genres of music the mandolin was found in, I just liked playing it.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Wow. More thought out than me.

I chose the mandolin because it was so much fun to play...

I think I was saying the same thing ;) -- but while in navel gazing mode, I ended up trying to answer for myself why I find it so much fun. Part of it is the fact that instrument itself is very intuitive, but a lot of it is related to the fact that the mandolin sort of opened the door to me to several genres I had never explored on other instruments. :mandosmiley:

[allenhopkins]

I enjoy playing the new instruments at the music store but I no longer have a desire to acquire.

I probably should have taken you with me to Bernunzio's last Saturday.

I'd have two fewer cases in my basement music room.

[billkilpatrick]

instruments - particularly the scrollful ones. musical taste can vary but the mandolin's a constant pleasure - even just to look at.

giving up MAS is on the "2-du" list ... tomorrow.

[Bertram Henze]

...I enjoy playing the new instruments at the music store but I no longer have a desire to acquire. There is only one pertinent question about a new instrument - does it sound better than what I have already.

Instruments that improve with use due to break-in are hard to beat by new ones. If you interpret break-in as "the instrument learning to love it's player", symmetry suggests that the player should undergo a similar process towards his instrument.

There is nothing wrong with that failure of "desire to acquire", except that the guys at the music store will sooner or later find out you just enjoy your own indifference.

Bertram

[barney 59]

Long ago I was happy to just have one decent instrument-well two- a mandolin and a guitar and for long periods of time because I traveled alot just a mandolin (at the end of every journey there was always a guitar to be found.) Then as I settled down they began to accumulate --a good deal here and one to restore there and then restoration projects that got sidelined because something more interesting came along or I was hunting some perfect part and of course the bad habit I have of when I set aside time to work on an instrument and working on it I start wanting to play and then I do play and the project drags out. I have finally kind of got a grip on it now. I have two mandolins and two guitars and they are the instruments I want and they cover what it is that I want to to do and have the voices that I want to hear. I've really got it under control.
I keep the other stuff hidden under foot or tumbling out of closets and to just be a focus for my wife to be annoyed at so she doesn't find something else to be annoyed at. They are projects and investments and a money drain and a money maker and my fantasy retirement and somewhat of a lending library and don't mean anything to me. It's just those four!.... Oh,I forgot to mention the fender electric -that comes in handy sometimes and the dobro gotta keep that around- ya never know when Jerry Douglas might stop by. My son who is gone now and doesn't play always liked that old Gibson guitar -I better hold on to that.Yah remember I got that one when we first came back from ...- I better hold onto that! Oh,did you see that Larson on e-bay?...I put a bid on that f5 but I probably won't get it... it would be a good investment though....
It's a disease ...what can I say? I do eventually get the projects done and many have moved on. You can love to play an instrument and you you can love the instruments in their own right and that can be separate and the same at the same time and sometimes ,like for me, even interfer with each other --but it's all fun.

[fredfrank]

I play the mandolin because it makes me look cool, and the chicks dig it!



Or, at least, my wife likes me to play the mandolin, more so than the banjo.

[Caleb]

For me, whether it be a guitar or a mandolin, the priorities flow as follows: tone, feel, and coming in last is aesthetics. So for me, it's more about the music, but it is nice to have a great instrument to boot.

[mandroid]

I get to let my musical psychosis out ... it's less annoying than whistling,

It's got 4 strings, i have 4 fingers, no bowing to learn, but the fingering is there.

I don't have to sit in a straight backed chair to practice,

it sits in my lap as comfortably as a Cat, but I need no Scat litter, to buy and dump.

And as I live in a small apartment with a No Pets decree as it is.. that too is a plus.

[chordbanger]

For me, it is the music that excites me more than anything. I crave and live for learning music. The instruments I play are important to me, but nothing excites me more than the challenge of learning a new song, and the ability to play it.

[Nighttrain]

For me it has to do with the tone of the instrument, and the way it feels in my hands. If the instrument speaks to me and I think that it will fit in with what I'm doing musically at the time. That being said, I have never been necessarily been into name brands as I have got some good tones out of some lesser or unknown names.

[CES]

[QUOTE=fredfrank;656505}
Or, at least, my wife likes me to play the mandolin, more so than the banjo.[/QUOTE]

Right on, brother...in fact, I got to mando by way of guitar then banjo, mainly because I was driving everyone in the house nuts with the banjo. Now I usually only pull it out when I'm home alone, though I'm beginning to get the bug again :grin:...I may need an intervention!! (but won't stop playing the mando!) :mandosmiley:

BTW, that first emoticon has way too many teeth to be attached to a banjo comment!! :)

[300win]

For me it's both the instrument and the music. Gathering together with old picking freinds of long ago, with the feeling of having a fine instrument in your hands, listening to the "music" you are helping make with kindred spirits, well it don't get no better than that.

[Philphool]

Instrument or Music? Hmmmm.....

Well, .... I'd have to have the music. But.... I could play it on guitar, or clarinet, or bagpipes I guess.

Nah....
I play the mando because:

It's small, easy to hold and feels good.
It's tuned logically and tunes fall under the fingertips easily.
The "sound" of the mando is beautiful to my ear.
It's beautiful to look at.
Not everyone in the world owns or plays one. (unlike guitar)

Oh,.... and because it's the BEST INSTRUMENT!!! (Donnie told me. )

[Ivan Kelsall]

Personally,both. Obviously the music counts as i've been playing Bluegrass for over 45 years.With Mandolins,i truly love the craftsmanship that a well made instrument exhibits & if the instrument has great tonal attributes,so much the better
Saska~:>

[mandomansuetude]

True confessions...last summer I started fooling with an old pot belly that had belonged to my uncle ...loved the sound ..but it was basically unplayable ...so on a whim I bought a mandobird and an amp...and started taking mandolin lessons from books and cds...that got old real fast and I went to a guitar store to make a deal . Found a fair sounding "mayfair" mandolin going for 250...then the owner said try this and he brought out this odd shaped mando ...very different looking ...I couldn't play a note at the time and just kinda struck all the strings ...well they rang out and around the room and into my chest and I said wow how much?...Well,he says it's got a small nick on the back from a belt buckle and I got it from a friend who builds them... for some money he owed me and I can let you have for 1800...I laughed and handed it back and said ...way out of my league...and went back to chirping on some of his other stock...but I never should have done that ..every thing else in the store was so far removed from it's resonance and beauty... that I knew to had to have it...so trades were made and money was paid and I got home and looked it up on the internet to see what I had ...it could have been anything ..I knew zero about mandolins or mandolin players...I knew zero about the people I bought it from...I knew less about brand names and builders....

So was it the music or the instrument ...I can't be sure .. I think it was the sound because that was what grabbed me and although the shape intrigued me ..I wouldn't have jumped in if the sound was not right......turns out it is an entry level Rigel. (and I can play her now)

[JeffD]

I think we got two different interpretations of the OP's question leading to four different kinds of answers. All are interesting and fruitfull for discussion.

The instrument or the music in terms of what attracts you to a particular mandolin, i.e. pretty or sounds great.

The instrument or the music in terms of why you play the mandolin, i.e. attracted to playing the instrument or attracted to playing the genre and found that mandolin is one way of doing it.

When I lust after a mandolin that I haven't tried, its because, in my experience, it looks like to would probably sound great. Other instruments of similarly stunning beauty have sounded amazing, so I would assume this one as well. If, upon trying it, I found it sounded average, well at that point it would not matter, I would not want it anymore no matter how it looked.

With regard to the second interpretation, I have said in other threads, I enjoy playing the mandolin more than I enjoy any particular genre played on the mandolin. Until recently I did not even listen to mandolin recordings or mandolin music. I just played on the thing. I played at first the stuff on my parents record list, then I discovered fiddle tunes, then Irish fiddle tunes, then the contra dance repertory, then old timey tunes and bluegrass and the whole concept of backing up the melody, throw in classical, some klezmer, some tango, and now western swing... jazz, blues, yada yada..

About the only thing I never do on the mandolin is try to play someone else's mandolin licks or try to emulate another mandolin player's way of playing.

So that, to me, is the instrument over the music in the broad sense. I didn't start out looking to play say bluegrass, and find the mandolin, I was looking to play mandolin, and willing to play anything I could find with whoever wanted to play with me.

[GRW3]

Instruments that improve with use due to break-in are hard to beat by new ones. If you interpret break-in as "the instrument learning to love it's player", symmetry suggests that the player should undergo a similar process towards his instrument.

There is nothing wrong with that failure of "desire to acquire", except that the guys at the music store will sooner or later find out you just enjoy your own indifference.

Bertram

You said a mouthful there. New mandolin beating a played in mandolin is a big task. Yet I have heard it with my own ears so I know it's out there. Right now finances do not favor making that move. But is it so unreasonable? The sound you hear is all you are guaranteed. It might get better but we know that is not always the case. If it subjectively better to start, you have that in the bank.

I try to make sure I buy every musical supply from my preferred dealer as possible. Also, he's more than just a sales outlet. It's philosophy, camaraderie, debate society and just general good feelings.

[Fliss]

I chose to play mandolin because of the appeal of the instrument itself rather than any particular music.

In terms of choosing any particular mandolin in preference to other mandolins, for me the priorities are feel, tone and aesthetics in that order, and all totally subjective. But an instrument has to score highly in all three categories for me to want it.

Fliss

[Bertram Henze]

...The sound you hear is all you are guaranteed. It might get better but we know that is not always the case. If it subjectively better to start, you have that in the bank.

Of course, there is always a better instrument. I was lucky so far with my OM, get positive comments at sessions, people who do not often hear instruments of that kind visibly get their socks knocked off.
However, I know there are instruments out there that sound, say, 30% better. Now they are not 30% more expensive, but more likely 300%. I'm an 80/20 guy. I switch instruments when I hit the ceiling on the one I have, and that is still far away. I also like to customize and experiment - higher gauge strings, elevated bridge, strap button; I'd be in cold sweat trying that with a high-end instrument. And I like to go and play at sessions, where you have not much room to sit and your headstock is in constant danger to connect with other headstocks, heads, beer glasses etc. An instrument too valuable to actually be played where it's music belongs would deadlock me.

All these considerations would be washed away like sandcastles if I saw another instrument I'd fall in love with, of course. But it doesn't seem to happen. I'm also a true lover. :grin:

Bertram

[Mike Bromley]

An instrument too valuable to actually be played where it's music belongs would deadlock me.


Therein lies a tragedy!

Instruments are made to be played, and by inference, dinged, chipped, cracked, and sometimes severely damaged....

That shouldn't stop one from enjoying the moment: The pleasure of being the one who gats to make it sing.

I watched John Reischman a while back, as he strolled casually through a packed room with his Loar, out of case, tonegard attached, as casually as he might carry a beer bottle, of which there were many in that packed room.

[Richard Moore]

I've always loved the mandolin more than any other instrument in the 45 or so years I've been playing although I've always played guitar too during that time and have had forays into b***o, fiddle and other families of instruments. I don't know why really, perhaps it's because my Dad played and there was always a mandolin lying around the house. I find it lends itself to a wide variety of music and styles.

As to instruments, I've certainly come to appreciate beautiful, well-built instruments aesthetically over the years and my preferences regarding tone have changed too.

[Dan Johnson]

I'm learning to let the instrument do the heavy lifting... But to do that, you have to have a pretty sweet mandolin...

[woodwizard]

For me, it is the music that excites me more than anything. I crave and live for learning music. The instruments I play are important to me, but nothing excites me more than the challenge of learning a new song, and the ability to play it.


Well said chordbanger :mandosmiley:

[GTG]

I play the mando for two main reasons 1- it was easy to learn for a reformed guitar/fiddle player, and 2-it makes a nice sound when I play the notes I hear in my head. I think I played the mando before I heard mandolin music (a friend had one that I picked up, curious), so I'd say I was attracted to the instrument first, but have since have come to appreciate the music much more.

[kestrel]

Actually, I prefer the mandola to the mandolin - so much so that that's all I now build. But to be nearer the point that the OP has raised, it's the music - the sound. How can it possibly be the instrument, when about 97.7% of the mandolins ever made look exactly like 97.7% of of all the mandolins ever made.

The sound is the thing. first and foremost! - no matter who made it.

Gene

[allenhopkins]

IMHO, for a musician the instrument is a tool to make music. You may cherish a particular mandolin, as a carpenter might have a favorite saw or a baseball player a cherished glove, but it's the house you build, the game you play, or the music you create that's the raison d'etre for the entire process.

Now, for a collector, it's the instrument, and he/she may begrudge the playing of it -- all those pick scratches and worn frets! Though I have dozens of instruments, I've never understood the perspective that leads one to stick a mandolin away in a glass case, or in a "vintage" hardshell stuck under the bed, without ever taking it out and picking it.

[farmerjones]

The Music.
Like Allen said, nice tools are nice, but tools none the less.

[GRW3]

Instrument differences: (speaking guitars to avoid mando hot buttons)

When I traded my Taylor 814 L7 (cocobola/sitke) in for the Martin OM-21 it was primarily for the comfort. But that was step one - find a comfortable shape. GC, OM, 000, 00 and Parlor were all sufficiently comfortable but they are not all equal in my ears. After a considerable amount of playing I found the OM-21 met my tone needs. Now the OM 21 is very ascetic compared to the Taylor (which was all kinds of fancy) but I found I just didn't care about the bling.

I give up a lot of volume not playing a dread but the guitar that I can play for hours is better than one I can only play for half an hour before the pain sets in. So what is the mandolin lesson to be learned from this? Perhaps it's that the hand, body and ears have to come first in choosing an instrument. And I agree, the 80/20 rule (eighty percent increase in cost to get a 20% increase in tone) probably applies.

[mandozilla]

To me, it's all about the sound (music)...I'd own one of those crummy Antoniosai
mandolins off of ebay if it sounded like a Loar. When it comes to looks, I do love the F5 style but I can't articulate why exactly.

And I also like the (genuine) distressed look...if they could speak, imagine the stories older mandolins could tell...I guess that's the romantic in me. But! I gotta say that the eye candy made by the great luthiers on the Cafe are wonders to behold! :grin:

~o):mandosmiley:

[Mattg]

1. Tone
2. Playability
3. Looks

in that order