Octave Mandolin advice and information

[toddmakesnoise]

Dear All,

First let me say I have tremendous respect for all you musicians and collectors. It's a wonderful thing that you take the time to post on this forum and help out newbies like myself!

I am new to octave mandolins. I've been a guitar guy for awhile and while I don't play celtic, bluegrass or any other traditional folk style, I think the octave mandolin is the sound I've always wanted. If you're curious, you can hear my stuff at: http://www.youtube.com/user/toddmakesnoise

I am writing to ask for advice about octave mandolins. I need basic information, such as:

1. The most well-known luthiers (because I do care about re-sale prospects)
2. Your opinion on how the body shape (i.e. oval vs. F-model) and various tonewoods affect the tone (in particular the bass response)
3. The best strings to use
4. The top octave mandolin players and some albums I should check out
5. Please clarify why the terms octave mandolin and mandola seem to be used interchangeably in Europe--is this simply because they are the same size and scale length?

I live in London. Since I became obsessed with octave mandolins, I have been running around trying to play as many as I can. So far I have played Ashbury, Fylde and some other smaller luthiers.

To be very honest, as is the case with guitars, I have noticed a HUGE quality difference between low-end and high-end stuff. The top-end Fylde Signature Touchstone octave mandolin, for instance, was a completely different instrument to the lower-end Fylde stuff and Ashbury models that I tried. I have not played a Sobell but have heard them and of course they were lovely. I had the great fortune to play an octave mandolin produced by Czech luthier Rozawood and... oh. my. god. It was the best-sounding instrument I've ever played, I nearly proposed to it on bended-knee. But at a price tag of 5600 Euros, I am unable to elope..

Sorry for the length of this message---thank you soooo much for your help!!!

Best,
todd

[Eddie Sheehy]

As you've pointed out the difference between the lower, mid, and upper ranges are dramatic. You need to pick a price range, your maximum, and compare apples to apples in that range. Woods, body-shape, hole type, depth, scale, nut, bridge, tailpiece, strings, all introduce variables - but difficult to describe as they also vary across models. In the lower price ranges a small relatively-unknown luthier might be a real find. The factory-produced lower-end instruments are hit-and-miss. Play as many as you can, but it is pointless comparing a higher-end models to mid and low models.

[Bertram Henze]

The top-end Fylde Signature Touchstone octave mandolin, for instance, was a completely different instrument to the lower-end Fylde stuff and Ashbury models that I tried.

There is one differential criterium not listed: time and impact of break-in. My Fylde Touchstone (lower-end, if you like?) sounded brash and tinny when I got it new. After one year, the depth started coming and has not come to a conclusive standstill after five years yet. These boats improve dramatically with age and use.
Different woods and construction details can yield other starting conditions and break-in speeds.

Bottom line: ideal comparison is possible among used instruments only.

Bertram

[toddmakesnoise]

You are absolutely right. And great to know that your Fylde improved so much with time!

And I wouldn't consider the Fylde Touchstone as low-end, I think it sells for £900 these days!

Thanks for the reply!

[John Flynn]

To your points:

1. The most well-known luthiers (because I do care about re-sale prospects)
> My guess is that the re-sale percentage is not as variable as it is with mandolins or even guitars. Some of the brands that would pop into my head as having solid re-sale would be Sobell, Fylde, Old-Wave and Weber, but I'm sure there are more.

2. Your opinion on how the body shape (i.e. oval vs. F-model) and various tonewoods affect the tone (in particular the bass response)
> Just like with mandolins, those two body types don't necessarily have any impact on tone. Differences in bracing, soundholes, body size, carved v. flat construction, etc. have a much greater impact on tone. Tonewoods would have effects similar to guitars. There are lots of resources online that expound on the tonal properties of different tonewoods.

3. The best strings to use
> D'Addario's are great, as are other brands. I think more with octaves, though, gauge is important. Putting together custom sets of gauges that work for your individual instrument and playing preferences seems to be more critical with octaves than with mandolins and guitars. So getting a tailpiece that takes both loop and ball ends is good.

4. The top octave mandolin players and some albums I should check out
> A lot of the players I listen to and emulate bill themselves as Irish bouzouki and/or cittern players, but the instruments are similar their music works equally well on OM. My faves are David Surrette, Dan Beimborn and Roger Landes.

5. Please clarify why the terms octave mandolin and mandola seem to be used interchangeably in Europe--is this simply because they are the same size and scale length?
> The terms are not interchangeable. A "mandola" has a scale length of around 16", give or take, in both geographies. An instrument tuned an octave below a mandolin, with a scale length of 20"-23", give or take, is called an "octave mandolin" in the US, and is sometimes called an "octave mandola" in Europe, although if it is tuned GDAE, the latter is really a misnomer.

[toddmakesnoise]

Eddie, thanks for the reply.

I appreciate that when I actually buy one I need to narrow it down quite a bit, but right now I'm just trying to gather information about octave mandolins in general, about the full spectrum from low-end to high-end, find out who the famous luthiers and players are, etc.

But to answer your question, I am looking to spend around £1500 (which equates to roughly $2250 at today's exchange rate), but could perhaps go a bit higher for something truly extraordinary that would be easily re-sellable.

[Eddie Sheehy]

1. The most well-known luthiers (because I do care about re-sale prospects)

Fylde, Sobell, Freshwater, Weber, Petersen, Gypsy, etc.

For re-sale prospects get a "used" instrument - it's already either lost the "new" depreciation or already "gained" the "increase" (which it will probably continue to do).


2. Your opinion on how the body shape (i.e. oval vs. F-model) and various tonewoods affect the tone (in particular the bass response)

I'll leave this to a luthier

3. The best strings to use

Mix and match gauges and types (flatwounds). I stick with basic string sets but I have an OM with TI flatwounds and another with J72's (Mandola strings). I have also used J76's (Heavy Mandola strings). Get used to standard strings (GHS PF285 or similar) first before experimenting, so you have something to compare the experiments to.

4. The top octave mandolin players and some albums I should check out

I don't buy albums anymore - just MP3's. - The artists I like to listen to are: Andy Irvine, Donal Lunney, Danu, Dervish - probably more Bouzouki than OM. John McGann plays unique BG on an OM.

5. Please clarify why the terms octave mandolin and mandola seem to be used interchangeably in Europe--is this simply because they are the same size and scale length?

If they are the same size and length then it's just a matter of the tuning - CGDA for a Mandola, GDAE for a Mandolin - these can be customized to "variations".

[toddmakesnoise]

John and Eddie, thank you soooo much! Great replies!

Wow, this forum is such a fantastic resource!

[David Westwick]

5. Please clarify why the terms octave mandolin and mandola seem to be used interchangeably in Europe--is this simply because they are the same size and scale length?
I

This comes up fairly frequently on this board. In Europe, the term mandola refers to a (typically bowl back) instrument with about a 17-20" scale length, tuned GDAE. It holds the midrange in their mandolin orchestras, and in the "quartetto romatico" (2 mandolins, mandola and guitar. In that context, the CGDA tuned mandola (with a 15.5 - 17" scale length) will be called either a mandoliola (to use Emberger's name for the instrument), or alto mandola.

The European mandola/octave mandolin has a host of other names -- Tenor, Tenor Mandolin, Tenor Mandola (but that term is also used for the CGDA tuned instrument), octave mandola (and I've probably missed a few).

The usual line-up in European mandolin orchestras is mandolin I and II, mandola (GDAE), guitar and bass. When North American mandolin orchestras play European music, they run into problems as a) there is no mandocello part, and b) the mandolas often have to play below the range of the alto instrument.
.

[Marcus CA]

I agree with going used here. I've only been playing OM for less than a year, but I get the sense that they open up faster than a mandolin does. After a couple of years, they seem to drop a couple hundred dollars in value here and gain a wealth of tone. Of course, since I'm a newbie, if other writers here contradict me, believe them! :)

[red7flag]

Eddie, Both Elderly and First Quality offer D'Addario J80 which they describe as OM strings. Any comment on them or are they fairly comparable to the GHS PF285? Thanks in advance.

[Woody Turner]

Tim O'Brien is another player who performs on octave with panache. BTW, in tonight's concert at Wolftrap (just outside DC), he pointed out that it's very important to refer to your bouzouki as an octave mandolin when you're passing through airport security.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Tony,
J79 - 10, 13, 22, 38 with a 10 and 13 as octaves with the 22 and 38
J80 - 12, 22, 32, 46
J81 - 11, 16, 28, 40
PF285 - 12, 22, 32, 44
J76 - 15, 25, 35, 52
J72 - 14, 23, 34, 49
GHS also have a Custom Irish bouzouki set 11, 16, 28, 40 - yoyu can use a 10 and a 16 as octave strings with the 28 and the 40 respectively.

If you are putting Octave pairs on the bass strings, put them on in reverse to a 12-string guitar - lighter string UNDER the heavy string.

Hope this helps.

These strings are not very expensive and you can always mix and match...

[red7flag]

Eddie, Thanks for the great information.

[foldedpath]

Eddie, Both Elderly and First Quality offer D'Addario J80 which they describe as OM strings. Any comment on them or are they fairly comparable to the GHS PF285? Thanks in advance.

I use those D'Addario J80's on my Weber OM (22.5"" scale), but I had to beef up the E pair to .013, with single strings ordered separately.

I really like the tone of the PB wound strings in the J80 set, but the plain .012's just didn't have enough tone and volume to match the rest of the strings, on this particular instrument. Your mileage may vary.

With no real standard for what an OM is as an instrument -- scale lengths varying all over the place -- string manufacturers can't really come up with a single OM packaged set that will work for everyone. I'm amazed that I only have to substitute 2 strings, which makes the J80 set plus bulk-order .013's a little more economical than going for a full custom set from individual strings.

Experiment! Strings aren't that expensive. Sometimes a subtle change like this, can make all the difference in how you feel about the playability, and tone of your instrument. Packaged sets are just a starting point in the journey.

[red7flag]

Fold thanks for the .13 suggestion. Will try it on the next set.

[John Flynn]

I concur with the need for heavier E strings with J80's on a 22-23" scale. I'm not sure what they were thinking with that set, since a lot of OMs have an even shorter scale, which would make the situation even worse. Personally, I feel the need to experiment with slightly heavier G strings also. I'd love to see a 13, 22, 32, 49 set. But I have a whole grab bag of orphaned guitar strings and my OM takes both ball and loop ends, so I will continue to experiment.

I recently took a 'zouk workshop with my OM where we used GDAD tuning. With the 1st course tuned down to D on a 22.75" scale, I used .014's and while they seemed slightly tight, they worked fine. I didn't try to take them back up to E though. I don't think that would have worked.

[red7flag]

John, My Octar has a 23.5 inch scale, longer than the range you were talking about, but there are times the E just sounds a bit tinny. Think I may try that .13 string there.

[margora]

"The usual line-up in European mandolin orchestras is mandolin I and II, mandola (GDAE), guitar and bass. When North American mandolin orchestras play European music, they run into problems as a) there is no mandocello part, and b) the mandolas often have to play below the range of the alto instrument."

As David mentions, this is a problem although, in practice, can often be solved by octave transposition if the note is too low for the alto mandola OR by having some people use the octave instrument (such as myself). In the PMO (Providence Mandolin Orchestra) we often just give the bass part to the mandocello section -- occasionally they run into problems, but this is less of one since any note that the cellos have a problem with the bass can play.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I've just received John McGanns Octave Mandolin & Bouzouki (Mel Bay) Instruction Book and CD. I can't stop listening to it, John weaves a magical musical tapestry. Highly reccommended...:mandosmiley:

[Jim M.]

I haven't posted in a couple of years but I still like listening. Other players to check out: Kevin Maccleod and Dagger Gordon (they used to post here too), Joseph Sobol's "Citternalia", Gerald Trimble's "First Flight" (IIRC, Trimble introduced Roger Landes to OM), Mike Marshall for many great mandocello pieces, Danny Carnahan, Ale Moller, Leif Sorbye (electric mandola), Beth Patterson, Chipper Thompson. I may think of some others.

[Steve L]

He doesn't get mentioned often enough, but Robin Bullock (Our own "Wolfboy" here on the Cafe) is a terrific player. The first set of jigs on his "Green Fields" CD is one of my favorite recordings of the instrument.