Microphone recommendations wanted

[danmills]

My newly-hatched bluegrass band is getting ready to play out, and our plan is to use a single mic in the traditional manner. We have guitar, banjo, mandolin, and bass, and we all sing, mostly duets and trios. (Note: We're desperately seeking a fiddle player!)

We're probably not ready to buy our own PA yet, but we're thinking it might be a good idea to get our own mic. None of us is all that knowledgeable about sound reinforcement equipment (I know I'm totally clueless), so I'm looking for advice and recommendations.

a) Is buying a mic a good first step?
b) What type of microphone is appropriate for use by the whole band?
c) What price range is worth looking at?
d) Any specific recommendations?

Thanks a lot.
Dan

[Spruce]

There's a lot of information already posted here on this subject....

Try a search ("4033" "KSM32" and "one mic" are good search words) and tons of stuff should come up.

..."Is buying a mic a good first step?"

If you're sure you're gonna go the one-mic route, then "yes"...
The mic is also a handy thing to have around if you're gonna record, either in the studio or rehearsals...

One thing about working with a one-mic setup--start rehearsing with the setup even if you don't have that mic yet. #
Getting the choreography together is more difficult than it looks, and will really make you apprecieate Del and the Boys a whole lot more the next time you see them...

[Bradley]

First Quality has the KSM32 for around $500 dollars and the even better KSM44 for around $700 dollars.

[Doug Edwards]

We've used several but have always come back to the one we bought 4 years ago, Octava CA-12. We now have another one and 3 Octava KA-12's we use to mike instruments at our BG show & Jam. One of our friend's group uses AT Pro 37's. One high and one low. Their output seems to be a little stronger than the Octavas, but ours cost about $125 each. We also use a Sabine FBX feedback eliminator that supplies Phantom power and gives a strong boost to the mic's gain. We also have a CAD Equitec 300 we've used, but it has been TOO sensitive for the applications or venues we've tried. Works great outside though. Clear and responsive.

[frets1]

Dan, There are hundreds of mics available. Many of them are quality, many are junk. When shopping for a mic, it is sooooooo easy to become lost in the details and specs. So, my advise to you is, don't play that game. Do yourself a favor and purchase a Sure SM58 for vocals and a Sure SM57 for instruments. The Sure mics are a great value and they will be working just as good 10 years from now as they work today. Good luck! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Rroyd]

For a single mike setup, or a two mike setup, you need to go with Spruce's comments. Frets1 is right about the durability of the Shure 57 and 58, but they do not have the sensitivity for a single mike setup. I use 57 and 58 mikes when each player has their own mikes, and have used three 58s on a single stand for a "single mike" approach to group vocals, but at present the groups I'm involved with use 2 AT 4033 mikes with great results, and far simpler setup and mixing, although as stated earlier, you have to learn to work with that type of setup. You need to rehearse with the sound system up and running to learn how to balance the band's sound, and physical placement of each member in relation to the mike is critical to how successful this type of setup can be, and needs to be practiced.

[Pete Martin]

You can get KSM44s for about $500.00 at pro audio retailers and Ebay if you look. KSM32 for around 420.00. I like these much better than AT4033 as they dont have the brittle high end 4033s can have on some voices and instruments, especially fiddles.

[earthsave]

You'll want to practice with that sucker when you get it. Mainly in setting it up... IF you do not have your own PA, that can be challenging every time.

With the AT4033 you'll need a 48v phantom power supply...we use the ART Tube amp. For small venues you can run this through a large instrument amplifier and set the amp in front of the microphone. We did that for a while until we go our own PA.

I think we got our 4033 with shock mount for about $300 and the tube amp for about $100.

[Flatpick]

I 2nd the Shure SM58 mics for Vocals and the SM57 for instrument mic'ing. I've used them both for years in Church settings. Works great and will last for years.

Flatpick

[Spruce]

"I 2nd the Shure SM58 mics for Vocals and the SM57 for instrument mic'ing. I've used them both for years in Church settings. Works great and will last for years."

So I guess there seems to be some disagreement as to whether a one-mic setup is the way to go around here.

As a performer, which do you prefer? #

Personally, I love not having to rely on the monitors for a good mix, and I think a one-mic setup really helps out on nailing close harmony singing. #

And it think it sounds better.
#
Try listening to board tapes made with 4-5 SM57s on the instruments, and 4-5 SM58s on the vocals, and 9 times out of 10 it's a sonic mess.
That's what the audience heard...

But give a listen to board tapes made with one or 2 mics on stage (like some Del or Jaybirds recordings), and it's usually golden. #

As an audience member, I really love watching the choreography involved with getting the one-mic thing to work right, too.

Jason coming in under Ronnie's left elbow to nail a fiddle solo just adds a huge dimension to a BG stage show, as opposed to 5 shoe-gazers delivering the goods--all close-mic'd, all-the-time...

Plus, you don't have to rely on the soundman except to get the level right on the mic...
Which they can usually handle.....
Sometimes...
Well, most of the time... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Q: #What's the difference between God and a soundman?
A: #God doesn't think he's a soundman...

[danmills]

Thanks for all the good info. Keep it comin'! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Also, sorry for not posting this in the Equipment forum where it really belongs.

And finally, those of you who use two mics: How do you use them? Do you place one high for vocals and one lower for instruments?

Thanks,
Dan

[Rroyd]

We put the two mikes about three or four feet apart; one is about chest height, while the other is slightly lower. Banjo, mandolin, and guitar leads are aimed at the lower one, while the fiddle and vocals generally use the taller one. This works for us, but heights of the members range from about 5'3" to 6'4", so that is one of the major considerations for our choice of setup. I've seen groups place one microphone directly above the other, and it worked great for them, so there certainly is no one right way. You just need to see what works for you. What instruments are played by the vocalists is one thing to be factored in. If the banjo player is your primary vocalist, I would be inclined to use the first setup described, but if the guitarist does most of the singing, the second setup might work best. Do the singers have similar volumes, or do you have a John Duffey who can stand a foot or two or three behind the other singers? These are things you find out as you practice with your equipment running, and either record it for evaluation, or have someone you trust listen and give you feedback about what needs to be done to get a good balanced sound.

[Jim Hilburn]

I've been told that you have to be careful about phase cancellation when using 2 large diaphrams. Any instrument that's being picked up by both,but is stronger in one is subject because of the time delay of the signals. They need to have some distance and you need to play into one or the other, not in between.

[Spruce]

"I've been told that you have to be careful about phase cancellation when using 2 large diaphrams."

Take a listen to the "Down From the Mountain" soundtrack, recorded with about 4-5 Neumann U47s scattered on stage...
They look great (I'm sure that's one reason they're up there), but the phasing problems that result are a sonic mess...

Never has 30K worth of mics sounded so lame...

[Bradley]

I've played both ways and still prefer the seperate microphone for each instrument/Vocal.

I have found that the AT Pro37R works best for the sound that I like,The only down side is that it needs Phantom Power and every now and then we get a setup with a "antique board" that doesnt have phantom.These mikes sell for around $120 each.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

An observation - the AT Pro 37 seems to get more of a "boingy" sound to the bass no matter what you do at the board. So you might want to mic that instrument seperately if you use one.

rasa

For bluegrass i would say Audio Technica! Yeah i think your band could use a Mic. Specially because youll will be doin small gigs.

[LeftCoastMark]

We've been having great luck with an Audio Technica AT 4047/SV!

[Paul Kotapish]

Using a single mic with a bluegrass or old-time string band can be wonderful for both the band and the audience, but there are some critical adjustments that the band and the sound engineer need to make to be effective.

For the band:

Monitors

You’ll need to loose the monitors to make the single-mic thing work. This is easy for some, but tough for those who are used to a blistering monitor level on stage. It takes work and practice to get used to standing close and listening to each other on stage, but the rewards can be gratifying.

Dynamics:

You’ll need to ensure that all of the players in the band can individually adjust their dynamic range from whisper soft to full volume, and that the band as a whole can modulate their volume appropriately. Playing around a single mic means that instrumental and vocal soloists need to be able to project fairly well, and that everyone needs to be aware of who is doing what when, and adjust their own volume accordingly. Ask someone who knows your sound to help you adjust this acoustically and through a single mic. Some players will need to get closer (guitarists, for example) than others (banjo and possibly mandolin) to get a clean, loud acoustic signal to the mic.

Choreography:

In order to give each soloist access to the single mic for breaks, you’ll need to rehearse your choreography for getting everyone into and out of mic proximity. One convention anchors the guitarist and bassist slightly to stage left, with mandolin, banjo, and fiddle rotating in and out slightly to stage right. Keep track of your line of direction or you’ll have a train wreck. Fun for the audience, but kind of unnerving for the band!

For the engineer:

A lot of live-sound engineers get cranky when a band wants to do a gig with a single mic, because it runs contrary to everything they typically do. I had a bluegrass band back in the ’70’s that tried using a single mic, and sound engineers would treat us like we were idiots, have fits, and walk out. To avoid a miserable night all around, the band needs to handle this dynamic gingerly. You need to convey the following as diplomatically as possible:

Forget everything you’ve been trying to accomplish for the last few decades. Forget about monitors. Forget about the smiley-face EQ. All of the sonic info for bluegrass and most string-band music is right smack dab in the middle of the equalizer, so leave it as flat as possible. Forget about trying to balance the sound. That’s the band’s job. Your job is get as much gain as possible out of that one mic. That means loosing the monitors and being very careful about mic placement relative to the mains.

Mics:

A lot of bluegrass bands are using the Audio Technica AT 4033.
http://www.audio-technica.com/prodpro/profiles/AT4033aSM.html

I also like the Audix SCX-25.
http://www.audio-technica.com/prodpro/profiles/AT4033aSM.html

Good luck, and have fun.

PK

[LeftCoastMark]

I have to second Paul's assessment of the benefit of single-mics for performances. My band does a lot of harmony singing, and the drawback to multiple mics and monitors is that you are adjusting your tone and attack with the monitors.

With the single mic thing, you get your heads together and match the vocals in real time. The quality goes way up.

[jim simpson]

Just played a gig this past weekend alternating with another bluegrass band, we each did 2 sets. We usually use a single mic but for this gig we used the events setup of individual mics. I must say the results were okay but never great. I think if we had our own sound guy we could have sounded better with either setup. I wasn't a convert initially but now prefer a single mic. The blending of voices comes out better and the instrument clarity and volume is seldom a problem. Paul K. summed it up pretty well.

[Ron C]

Da, before you buy ANY microphone, you need to check out the AKG 3000C. I just bought one and it's awesome for a one mic five piece band operation like our's. Price varies from $250.00-$350 Ron Cole

[mrbook]

We use the AT 4033 or an AKG C3000B, which I bought as a spare, but which turned out to be as good or better than the AT. We usually use just one, but tried two a couple times recently since we have them, and discovered we lost that closeness playing together even with the microphones 3' apart. We played a festival last week, and were the first band (of several) to use one mic. People commented that they didn't know so much music could come from one mic, and we didn't have all the time-wasting set-up problems that other bands have. At the festival, we used the sound crew's AT 4033 or their Shure KSM44, and both were fine.