Why So Much?

[29er]

As a newbie player crossing over from the guitar world, I've been educated that comparable quality mandolins are @ twice the price of guitars. My question is why?

Since the mandolin requires much less in the way of raw material, am I correct to assume that the mandolin is much more labor intensive to build vs. the guitar?

I have really enjoyed learning this great instrument & hope that my former GAS pains are not transfered to a bad case of MAS, although spending some of my vacation time trying out some great Weber's, Collings, Breedlove's & Larrivee's at Gryphon & Sylvan Music has me worried for my credit card balance;)

[Mattg]

I've built several guitars and am working on my first carved mandolin. Even as an A style, I think it is much harder to build so far. Carving tops and backs is time consuming.

[JEStanek]

In prior discusions (I'll run a search later) many of our builders who hand build their instruments spend 200+ hours building and finishing an F style mandolin. Just as arch top guitars are comparitvely more expensive than flat tops the same applies to flat top and archtop mandolins.

Jamie

[Hans]

:popcorn:

[sunburst]

The only comparisons that are anywhere near fair are flat top to flat top and archtop to archtop.

If you compare the price of carved, arched mandolins to carved, arched guitars, that's a more nearly fair comparison.
If you are going to base your comparisons on flat top guitars, then compare them to flat top mandolins.

[29er]

Thanks. That's pretty much what I thought. So conversly, is a humble Mid Missouri flat top such as mine harder to build than a comparable no-frills flat top guitar?

[JeffD]

As a newbie player crossing over from the guitar world, I've been educated that comparable quality mandolins are @ twice the price of guitars. My question is why?

Since the mandolin requires much less in the way of raw material, am I correct to assume that the mandolin is much more labor intensive to build vs. the guitar?


The topic has been hashed around a lot. And in general, for the most part, in the lion's share of cases, what you say is true.

But to the answer why:

Luthiers price their instruments at what they perceive they are worth - what they determine folks are willing to pay.

The real answer boils down to: that people are willing to pay twice as much, in general, for a mandolin. (Twice again for a violin.)

Considering the price of the raw materials, or labor intensiveness and maticulessness of the building, how sensitive the final product is to slight differences in its build - - that is looking through the glasses the wrong way.

Why it is that folks are willing to pay more for a mandolin than they are a guitar of roughly the same quality, is a very good question.

Part of it might be that there are just so many more guitar players out there, at all levels, that there is more downward pressure on prices in the guitar market. There are other factors, of which I am not at all the expert.

If I could understand markets, and the mysteries of group behavior as it relates to prices - I would be a very wealthy man.

[JEStanek]

Depends on where your flat top guitar was made and the materials used. A mid mo and a a hand made flat top guitar both made in the USA should be similar. Also, like Jeff said, lower demand increases prices somewhat.

Jamie

[MikeEdgerton]

There have been dscussions of this in the past but it's hard to search them out. Two threads I did find that approach the matter from different angles are these two. This (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30337&highlight=cost+) one deals with the cost per hour and number of hours to build a mandolin and this (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10593&highlight=cost+) one deals with the difference in time required to build an F or an A model. I asked the same question when I took up the mandolin.

[mandroid]

hard to compare unless both are made in the same country & company ..
say Eastman Carved top Guitars and Mandolins,

.. there is the dealer and importer wholesale costs and buisness operating margins too

So Mid Mo And a Rogue D type for example, are like comparing .. apples and oranges.

[JeffD]

My personal, biased opinion, is that mandolins cost more because they are so much prettier than guitars. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Rick Turner]

Pancake mandolins are pretty easy to build, and once you go past about $600.00 at retail, what you're paying for is decoration and fancier or more expensive wood or upgraded finishes. People take my "Build a Mandolin in 4 Days" course for less than that.

[allenhopkins]

I'm thinking economies of scale. Millions of guitars made annually, thousands of mandolins. Guitar manufacturing process, even for quality (but not individually luthier-built) instruments, involves division of labor, quasi-semi-automated processes, batch fabrication. Mandolin manufacturing process, not so much.

You can get El Cheapo mandolins comparable to El Cheapo guitars. You can buy ornate mandolins hand-built by Vietnamese "village craftsman" types for low prices; ditto for Mexican tourist-grade stuff. Quality mid-range to high-range instruments more comparable: Eastman 615 mandolin $1500 list, Eastman AR-605 archtop guitar $1600 list.

Smaller market size and more limited production often results in higher prices. Many of the instruments we discuss on the Cafe should be compared to the products of small-shop guitar builders, in terms of quality and limited production, rather than to the Martin/Taylor/etc. lines of quality flat-top guitars.

[David Newton]

I nap a lot at my workbench, but I've got to charge for the time somehow.

[Hans]

David, I like your Spanish V joint.

[mandozilla]

:popcorn:
Great answer Hans...HaHaHa :))

JeffD's correct...they cost more 'cause they're prettier and because they have more fancy doodads than a flat top... :grin:


hope that my former GAS pains are not transfered to a bad case of MAS

29er! Be afraid...be very afraid! It is the extremely rare indvidual that never gets afflicted with the dreaded MAS. :disbelief:

:mandosmiley:

[GRW3]

You wouldn't want it where just anybody could afford a mandolin! There are standards, you know?

:))

Unless you're talking something exotic like brazilian rosewood material probably has no marked influence on the price. The volume of wood is not the story either. It's labor that's first on the list. Carved mandos are labor intensive.

[mandopixie]

Violins also fall into this area of wood/labor intensive skills. Ever play/hear a budget (cheap) violin?!
How's that PML coming, Hans? :whistling:

[JEStanek]

Price in wood does make a difference. The difference between fancy walnut and less fancy walnut for my build was an extra $250 on a $3K build. So that was almost a 10% difference.

Jamie

[mandopixie]

Price in wood does make a difference. The difference between fancy walnut and less fancy walnut for my build was an extra $250 on a $3K build. So that was almost a 10% difference.

Jamie

Fancy woods and triple bindings can run you another $7K in some cases. Now, that's a wood and labor price difference right there.:popcorn:

[fred d]

:cool: How could anyone spend 200 working on about 3 sq ft of wood. I have built entire kitchens in less time than that encluding matching some hand carved doors. People that say its all built with hand tools are stupid?? Power tools are more precise. and a H### of a lot faster Does anyone even hint that Gison ,Weber or any other high end instruments are made by hand?? This is the same reason a lot of manufacturing job:popcorn::popcorn:s went overseas. My dad owned a hand craft store and and anyone who thought that they would even make min. wage were kidding them selfs it's a hobby get over it!! That's why I can buy a overseas Guitar Gold tone banjo and mandolins compaired with Gibsons It's not the instrument but the player! Keeping the prices up make this and an ellitest instrument compared to Guitars and even Banjo!! It's my dime and now I said it ( greatfull player of 6 string banjo bules and jazz ) :popcorn:

[Hans]

:cool: How could anyone spend 200 working on about 3 sq ft of wood. I have built entire kitchens in less time than that encluding matching some hand carved doors.

Me too. Build one and see how long it takes you...

People that say its all built with hand tools are stupid?? Power tools are more precise. and a H### of a lot faster Does anyone even hint that Gison ,Weber or any other high end instruments are made by hand?? This is the same reason a lot of manufacturing job:popcorn::popcorn:s went overseas.

Manufacturing went overseas for cheap labor...


My dad owned a hand craft store and and anyone who thought that they would even make min. wage were kidding them selfs it's a hobby get over it!!


It's not a hobby if it's your livelihood...


That's why I can buy a overseas Guitar Gold tone banjo and mandolins compaired with Gibsons It's not the instrument but the player! Keeping the prices up make this and an ellitest instrument compared to Guitars and even Banjo!! It's my dime and now I said it ( greatfull player of 6 string banjo bules and jazz ) :popcorn:


Good luck...

[mandopixie]

You're absolutely right, Fred. Building mandolins is far less labor-intensive, not requiring as much skill and precision as building kitchens or hobby crafting..:whistling:
That's some can of worms you've opened there, lad!

[JEStanek]

More like a can of lighter fluid and a book of matches...

Jamie

[Marcus CA]

:cool: How could anyone spend 200 working on about 3 sq ft of wood. I have built entire kitchens in less time than that including matching some hand carved doors.

The difference is that a kitchen is a bit more forgiving if you're off by 1/16" here and 1/16" there.

[barry k]

Ok I'll play...............I can build that kitchen in 9 days....ok your turn.

[Eric F.]

Surely you realize the price of mandolins is controlled by Scott Tichenor?

[Plectrosaurus]

Is he the 'Greenspan' of mandolins?:))

[MikeEdgerton]

... Does anyone even hint that Gison ,Weber or any other high end instruments are made by hand??...

Take a trip to Nashville, go to the Opry Mills Mall. Go to the Gibson Showcase, turn left as you walk in the door and stand and watch the guy with the Dremel carve out an F5 neck by hand. You'll soon have your answer. Take a trip to Nazareth, PA. You can stand and watch a CNC machine crank out 20 guitar necks at a time. You don't even have to go to Nashville, I just answered your question. By the way, the Eastman mandolins in China are built by hand as well.

[Plectrosaurus]

Is he the 'Greenspan' of mandolins?:))

[allenhopkins]

:cool: How could anyone spend 200 working on about 3 sq ft of wood...It's my dime and now I said it...

Give ya a few cents change on that dime.

How could Da Vinci spend weeks on Mona Lisa when I can paint an entire barn in half a day with a paint sprayer?

How could Segovia study for decades and decades to play the guitar, when I learned the chords to Louie, Louie in 20 minutes?

How could Michael Jordan get millions of dollars and world-wide fame for playing basketball, when I once hit six consecutive corner jump-shots in a middle school JV game?

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Does it?

[JeffD]

Did you know that a can of unsalted peanuts generally costs more than a can of salted peanuts. What, do we have to pay extra to have them remove the salt?

[man dough nollij]

Did you know that a can of unsalted peanuts generally costs more than a can of salted peanuts. What, do we have to pay extra to have them remove the salt?

Sure. I've seen a lot of want ads, recruiting folks to lick the salt off. Me, I'll take mine salted and unlicked...:disbelief:

[woodwizard]

This is getting very deep. I bet I can carve a 7 ft Indian faster than you can carve a mandolin. :grin: :popcorn:

[man dough nollij]

Wow, Woodwiz, I never knew you were eight feet tall!

[mandochic]

And then, a good mandolin is fairly inexpensive in comparison to a good fiddle! The great demand for guitars dictates that many will be made, and sold quite inexpensively. The demand for mandolins, however, is less than for guitars, and so fewer mandolins are made for this specialized market at a higher price than for a guitar.

Have you taken a look at a used mandolin? I have been borrowing an inexpensive Fender mandolin that performs quite well. I have also seen an Ibenez that sounded pretty good.

Hope this helps. ~o):grin:

[mrmando]

Mandolin players are smarter, taller, and much better looking than guitar players.

The smarter, taller, and better looking you are, the more money you earn.

Therefore, mandolins are more expensive than guitars. As a percentage of the average player's income, mandolins and guitars actually cost the same.

Four out of five dentists agree, so it must be true.

[mandopixie]

And then, a good mandolin is fairly inexpensive in comparison to a good fiddle..I have been borrowing an inexpensive Fender mandolin that performs quite well. I have also seen an Ibenez that sounded pretty good.

Yes, I agree with mandochic here, but borrowing a Loar is an even better value deal.:))

[Michael Lewis]

In regards to how someone can spend so much time on such a small area, . . . . . . . . . take a look at some of the engraving artistry available on the internet. I forget their names but Google will find you some very impressive knives, money clips, belt buckles, guns, etc. Now, THERE is a time soak, and truly amazing.;)

[29er]

Wow! Quite a thread I got started here :whistling:


I know that carving tops & backs is much more work than building them flat. I can also see how economy of scale should make the guitar a less expensive instrument to buy when compared to a mandolin.

I've been kind of a cheap-skate with my guitars and love the fact that my Martin 000-15S and Seagull Mini Jumbo can hang with guitars costing many times what they retail for. I think my Mid-Mo is in the same catagory in the world of mandolins.

However, I may have to change my spend thrift ways if I hope to own a nice arch top mandolin :)

[frankenstein]

Go get 'em Fred.. um! because..

[Fretbear]

There are beginning to be F-5 mandolins available that are starting to push back the huge gulf that heretofore has previously existed between the price of "decent" guitars and mandolins available for a semi-reasonable price.
I built mine from a kit...it took me about 200 hours....

[billkilpatrick]

The difference is that a kitchen is a bit more forgiving if you're off by 1/16" here and 1/16" there.

kitchens are ok but it's tough to get all those cabinets, sinks, appliances, etc. into a case ... and airline staff generally won't allow a kitchen on board as carry-on.

[man dough nollij]

Mandolin players are smarter, taller, and much better looking than guitar players.

The smarter, taller, and better looking you are, the more money you earn.




Thanks for explaining that, Mr Mando. Up to now I was wondering how I could be so short, ugly and stupid, and still be so poor. Now it's all coming together... :whistling:

[kestrel]

Garsh Fred, we sure is glad you cleared that up. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

I figger you got nine-cents comin' back.

Gene

[Gerard Dick]

I've seen some of those quickie kitchens and it amazed me that the customer was satisfied, with doors not matching 'cause the hinges were off, and a few other issues a little harder to see.

[Capt. E]

Here is a link to photos of the build process of Dudenbostel Mandolins. Some of the most expensive being made today;
http://dudenbostel.leanside.com/1.html

[Capt. E]

I know one luthier, Glenn Stevens of Fredericksburg Texas, who makes both violins and mandolins. His violins start at 10K but the mandolins are around 8K. He prefers building violins because they take half the time and sell for more. Every one of them gets sold before they are finished.

[JeffD]

Mandolin players are smarter, taller, and much better looking than guitar players.



What? You want me to argue with that?

:disbelief:

[Santiago]

While we're on the topic of value, why is it that the closer you get to the ocean the more seafood costs?

[29er]

While we're on the topic of value, why is it that the closer you get to the ocean the more seafood costs?

Well, there goes my thread off in another direction:))

[alanz]

29er,

An interesting anecdote from a week ago regarding my Big Muddy (formerly Mid Mo) flat top mandolin.

I attended the March Mandolin Festival in New Hampshire about a week ago. I was in the beginners class, and one of the instructors was Radim Zenkl (http://www.zenkl.com/). He took about half of one session reviewing and critiquing the setup for each of the 18 mandolins in the class (this is a good thing, particularly when you're a beginner, it's nice to not be fighting a poorly set up instrument)

For every other mandolin after he pinged it here and there, he advised moving the bridge, lowering or raising the nut, adjusting this or that.

When he came to my Big Muddy flat top M-0W mandolin, he asked if this was the way it came from the maker, or if I'd had it professionaly set up. I explained that when I got it, the action was a bit high, so I had it set up by one of the luthiers (Glenn Nelson, Mockingbird Music) present during Mandolin Camp North last April.

He looked it over again, and said to the class: "This is the way a mandolin should be set up" and urged everyone to take a look at it.

He then surprised me and asked if he could play my mandolin during a late night jam session back at the hotel.

That night, at the hotel, I handed him the Big Muddy and he proceeded to jam with it for quite some time... coaxing sounds out of the instrument that I certainly have never been able to make.

It was a real pleasure and a treat watching him play and bang on the Big Muddy during the jam. I don't know how long he played before handing it back to me so he could try a Bouzouki, but he gave my mandolin quite a workout.

When he gave it back to me, he smiled and simply said in his understated manner "This is a very playable mandolin"

I can only hope some of his playing mojo flowed into the instrument.

So, I'm not lusting for a carved top any time soon <vbg>

[Mattg]

:cool: How could anyone spend 200 working on about 3 sq ft of wood. I have built entire kitchens in less time than that encluding matching some hand carved doors.

How good do those hand carved doors sound?

[woodwizard]

Wow, Woodwiz, I never knew you were eight feet tall!

:))Actually the one behind me is a little over 10ft tall. I'm only 7'11-1/2" :);)

[Rick Banuelos]

:cool: How could anyone spend 200 working on about 3 sq ft of wood. I have built entire kitchens in less time than that encluding matching some hand carved doors. People that say its all built with hand tools are stupid?? Power tools are more precise. and a H### of a lot faster Does anyone even hint that Gison ,Weber or any other high end instruments are made by hand?? This is the same reason a lot of manufacturing job:popcorn::popcorn:s went overseas. My dad owned a hand craft store and and anyone who thought that they would even make min. wage were kidding them selfs it's a hobby get over it!! That's why I can buy a overseas Guitar Gold tone banjo and mandolins compaired with Gibsons It's not the instrument but the player! Keeping the prices up make this and an ellitest instrument compared to Guitars and even Banjo!! It's my dime and now I said it ( greatfull player of 6 string banjo bules and jazz ) :popcorn:

:disbelief:

If you saw even the most minute gap in my kitchen cabinetry on one of your instruments, you'd have a warranty issue for sure. Also, nobody ever says the panels on their drawers make their hands hurt after an hour of use.

And yes, I will strongly hint to you that Webers at least have a lot of hand work involved.

I'll also state for the record that the more time you put into your instrument to make it right, the better your instrument will be. It will feel better, sound better, look better, etc.

My current mando makes my old Fender sound silly. That's not elitist, it's a fact.

[mandopixie]

(I) love the fact that my Martin 000-15S and Seagull Mini Jumbo can hang with guitars costing many times what they retail for. I think my Mid-Mo is in the same category in the world of mandolins.

I, too own a 000-15S which I love, and would have to agree with you on that first sentence. That said, I believe I am among thousands of mandolinists, cursed/blessed with a critical ear who would challenge your second remark regarding the Mid-Mo.

[29er]

29er,

An interesting anecdote from a week ago regarding my Big Muddy (formerly Mid Mo) flat top mandolin.

I attended the March Mandolin Festival in New Hampshire about a week ago. I was in the beginners class, and one of the instructors was Radim Zenkl (http://www.zenkl.com/). He took about half of one session reviewing and critiquing the setup for each of the 18 mandolins in the class (this is a good thing, particularly when you're a beginner, it's nice to not be fighting a poorly set up instrument)

For every other mandolin after he pinged it here and there, he advised moving the bridge, lowering or raising the nut, adjusting this or that.

When he came to my Big Muddy flat top M-0W mandolin, he asked if this was the way it came from the maker, or if I'd had it professionaly set up. I explained that when I got it, the action was a bit high, so I had it set up by one of the luthiers (Glenn Nelson, Mockingbird Music) present during Mandolin Camp North last April.

He looked it over again, and said to the class: "This is the way a mandolin should be set up" and urged everyone to take a look at it.

He then surprised me and asked if he could play my mandolin during a late night jam session back at the hotel.

That night, at the hotel, I handed him the Big Muddy and he proceeded to jam with it for quite some time... coaxing sounds out of the instrument that I certainly have never been able to make.

It was a real pleasure and a treat watching him play and bang on the Big Muddy during the jam. I don't know how long he played before handing it back to me so he could try a Bouzouki, but he gave my mandolin quite a workout.

When he gave it back to me, he smiled and simply said in his understated manner "This is a very playable mandolin"

I can only hope some of his playing mojo flowed into the instrument.

So, I'm not lusting for a carved top any time soon <vbg>




Great story! Being a guitar player for 25 years I know good tone when I hear it and my Mid Missouri sounds great & plays better than many high end mandolins I've played in a lot of shops.

As I said in an earlier post, a "humble" instrument is fine by me, tone & playability are king.

However, I do lust for an arch top & f-holes but since I'm just beginning to learn the thing I am trying to concentrate on that instead of MAS entering into the picture right now. Heck, I don't even have a preferred style of music to learn, I just want to get my chord & scales down so I can rip it up when the time comes.

Again, thanks for all the great replies to my question. This is a great place :mandosmiley:

[fred d]

:)) I started this just to piss some of youall offf but what the H### I'm abanjo player and try at bluegrass so I can drown out the spoons with my ampedmandolin just driving chops and don't need to spend a lot to do that and my best banjo was found at the dumphad to beat a rat and seagull off to get it:disbelief::confused::mandosmiley:

[MikeEdgerton]

Well fred d, take a look at this portion of the Posting Guidelines and be guided by it. We don't take this behavior lightly.


From the posting guidelines:

Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don't say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.

[JeffD]

Another cultural phenomenon that affects the relative price is the mojo, in the guitar world, attributed to how cheap your guitar is. Especially in folk and blues circles. A fellow gets a lot out of bragging that he found his instrument next to the urinal in the bus stop mens room, and used an old belt and shoe laces for the strap and a canvas sack for the case. I suppose you are less credible singing the blues with a brand new Martin D-41 or 00-28VS

Mandolin players, on the other hand, by and large, enjoy how pretty, how well made, how fresh and new their mandolins look. Many wipe their mandolin down before putting it to bed in the case. There is little or no mojo attached how beaten up a mandolin looks.

[mandopixie]

:disbelief:I've always ensured my hands are clean before playing, and wiped down my guitar and mandolin strings and neck before putting them away. It's not for 'pretty' - it's just common sense. Dirt and sweat shorten the life of the strings, and gunk up the fretboard, and even the neck. I can't afford, or believe in replacing my strings every week.

[mrmando]

There is little or no mojo attached how beaten up a mandolin looks.
Jeff -- you're forgetting about the distressed models!

[John McGann]

:cool: How could anyone spend 200 working on about 3 sq ft of wood. I have built entire kitchens in less time than that encluding matching some hand carved doors. People that say its all built with hand tools are stupid?? Power tools are more precise. and a H### of a lot faster Does anyone even hint that Gison ,Weber or any other high end instruments are made by hand?? This is the same reason a lot of manufacturing job:popcorn::popcorn:s went overseas. My dad owned a hand craft store and and anyone who thought that they would even make min. wage were kidding them selfs it's a hobby get over it!! That's why I can buy a overseas Guitar Gold tone banjo and mandolins compaired with Gibsons It's not the instrument but the player! Keeping the prices up make this and an ellitest instrument compared to Guitars and even Banjo!! It's my dime and now I said it ( greatfull player of 6 string banjo bules and jazz ) :popcorn:

http://indietravelpodcast.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/homer-doh-square.jpg

[Michael Gowell]

Mandopixie, your typeface size & style are really annoying.

[MikeEdgerton]

...There is little or no mojo attached how beaten up a mandolin looks.

I really don't agree with that. I have a guy that I play with now and then that's in his early 80's and has been playing since he was 13. He's got a 60's Gibson and a 50's Gibson that he has worn the finish off the top of the back of the neck with honest play wear. I'd call that mojo. It's magical when you see something like that. Beyond that, there isn't a mandolin in the world that has more than this one.

[JeffD]

I will admit there are exceptions. And some fameous ones. My favorite is Andy Statmans Gibson A. And there are exceptions the other way too, especially jazz and classical guitarists I suppose, who seem to get the best guitar they can and take exceptional care of it.

So many times I have seen, used to be in bus stops and train stations, where you would see someone with a guitar, no case, rope for a strap, just hanging off the shoulder or the back, or tied unceremoniously to a backpack. And I can think of several times I have seen a guitar, again without a case, strapped to a motorcycle.

And folks scraping their guitars with nickles and dinging them up, and all of this to appear more "authentic" or something. And you never, well I never heard any mandolinists bragging about finding their mandolin in a dumpster, while I used to hear a lot of that from guitarists years ago. (when I hung out with more of them).

It may be my selective experience, but there you have it.

[MikeEdgerton]

I prefer it when folks use a sledge hammer to distress their musical instruments. :)

[kestrel]

"Mandopixie, your typeface size & style are really annoying."

So annoying - and difficult to read - that I don't even try to read your posts, anymore.

I was wondering if anyone else had this opinion. I find it even more annoying than trying to read all capitals, and not too long back, forum members nearly crucified a guy who refused to cease typing in caps.

Gene

[onassis]

I really don't agree with that. I have a guy that I play with now and then that's in his early 80's and has been playing since he was 13. He's got a 60's Gibson and a 50's Gibson that he has worn the finish off the top of the back of the neck with honest play wear. I'd call that mojo. It's magical when you see something like that. Beyond that, there isn't a mandolin in the world that has more than this one.

Word. Nuthin' I love more than an instrument with real character.

[mandopixie]

"Mandopixie, your typeface size & style are really annoying."

So annoying - and difficult to read - that I don't even try to read your posts, anymore.

I was wondering if anyone else had this opinion. I find it even more annoying than trying to read all capitals, and not too long back, forum members nearly crucified a guy who refused to cease typing in caps.

Gene

I just heard from Scott about this, as he'd received some complaints about it. :redface: I don't understand why or how my posts show up for you all like that. As I am quite the stickler on protocol, this leaves me rather embarrassed (Mr Gumby has turned red from embarrassment and rage at this turn of events). I never choose to post in bold, but I do prefer other fonts. I won't ever attempt to do it again on this site - although I do wonder why the option won't work for me. :mad: I'm sorry for any inconvenience and/or offence I've caused, and promise to use the default font from now on. I refuse to stop using chord substitutions, though..

[billkilpatrick]

I just heard from Scott about this, as he'd received some complaints about it. :redface: I don't understand why or how my posts show up for you all like that. As I am quite the stickler on protocol, this leaves me rather embarrassed. I never choose to post in bold, but I do prefer other fonts. I won't ever attempt to do it again on this site - although I do wonder why the option won't work for me. :mad: I'm using a newer Macbook Pro, and none of my posts show on bold font on my computer.

your typeface size and style appear as normal here in italy - same as everyone else. maybe it's a trans-atlantic aberration.

- bill*

[G. Fisher]

Mandopixie,

I'm not sure what others are seeing the only different I see is larger font size.

I tried larger font and different color on this post to see if it works.

[Hans]

I'm sorry Greg, but that large font size and blue color are really annoying and too easy to read.

[mandroid]

the solution,: begin accepting straight cut, flat top, cigar box mandolins.
and then those can be pushed out the door in a rapid succession.

the synchronized popcorn team .. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Jim]

Depends on where your flat top guitar was made and the materials used. A mid mo and a a hand made flat top guitar both made in the USA should be similar. Also, like Jeff said, lower demand increases prices somewhat.
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure you can't touch and american made let alone a hand made american flat top guitar for what a Mid Mo sells for.

[G. Fisher]

I'm sorry Greg, but that large font size and blue color are really annoying and too easy to read.

Is this better Hans?:)

[Stephen Lind]

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure you can't touch and american made let alone a hand made american flat top guitar for what a Mid Mo sells for.

you are soooo NOT wrong
he's not even close

one can get a plain mahogany Noble for under 3Kwhich is about as inexpensive as it gets for a handmade flat top from an experienced US maker

this statement had me scratching my head

[mandopixie]

You could get a Goble for even less..

[Man of Wax]

If the mandolin market as a whole skews more expensive (and, as others in this thread have pointed out, it may not), it might reflect the overall high quality of play among practitioners. Obviously there are, like me, beginners, who are not highly skilled and probably should not have very expensive instruments. But because it's such a niche instrument, it makes sense that players would be substantially devoted and motivated. Any chump can learn a few guitar chords, but you have to want to learn, I think, to get into mandolin. Ergo, mandolin players are likely to be better players on average and therefore willing to invest in an instrument that meets the particular requirements of a highly skilled user. (No, I am not saying that the best mandolinists are better musicians than the best guitarists. That would be asinine and nonsensical.)

The guitar market needs to support everyone from your average bored high schooler to Doc Watson. Among mandolin players, the player quality distribution curve (PQDC, a technical term) probably leans a little more toward strong players.

All that said, I do think top-level mandolins—i.e., Gilchrist, Dude, Nugget—seem overpriced on the face of it, but I also doubt those builders are getting mega-rich exploiting the mandolin-buying public. And at that point you're buying it at least in part because it's expensive.

[Hans]

Really folks, try and get a BR D-45 for $4K...say that's different? Don't think so.
Top of the line mandolin from a good builder for $4K? Don't think so.
Same difference. I'll say it again...folks want a Loar for $4K. Builders offer instruments with less trim (D-28) for less and they sound just as good, but no, folks will buy a pac-rim POS loaded to look like a Loar and sound like a sled.
:popcorn:

[Dale Ludewig]

Agreed, Hans.

[Stephen Lind]

that's because people tend to "hear" with the two things on the front of their head
rather than the two things on the sides;)

[Dale Ludewig]

Stephen,

I think you're right. But we must allow other factors into this. Many people have been taught (?) that the Monroe sound is the only one to pursue. I don't think that's so. Not that there's anything wrong with the Monroe sound. I love it. But there are other sounds that can come from that little box.

What you enter into with the hearing with the two little things on the front of anyone's head thought is a good one. One that's been discussed here many times and I highly reccomend searching for such. I don't have any at hand. Sorry.

Your point is very valid.

[jim_n_virginia]

mandolins are @ twice the price of guitars. My question is why?

Because mandolin builders are greedier than guitar builders and I have even heard rumors that they are even going to get some of that bailout money their handing out! :))

[allenhopkins]

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure you can't touch an American made let alone a hand made American flat top guitar for what a Mid Mo sells for.

Well, assuming that a basic Big Muddy sells for around $600, you can get at least Canadian made Seagull guitars -- solid cedar top, laminated cherry b&s -- for about $500 list.

Decent instruments, the Seagull line, and this does throw in a question about the "hand-carved" variable as being the crucial difference in pricing.

[mandopixie]

..some of that bailout money their handing out! :))

..they're handing out..:whistling:

[mrmando]

And you never, well I never heard any mandolinists bragging about finding their mandolin in a dumpster, while I used to hear a lot of that from guitarists years ago. (when I hung out with more of them).

Look up the history of Pee Wee Lambert's Loar sometime...

[Dan Johnson]

mandolin players make more money!

[Chris Biorkman]

..they're handing out..:whistling:

The grammar police have arrived. Yuck.

[GTG]

Well, assuming that a basic Big Muddy sells for around $600, you can get at least Canadian made Seagull guitars -- solid cedar top, laminated cherry b&s -- for about $500 list.

Decent instruments, the Seagull line, and this does throw in a question about the "hand-carved" variable as being the crucial difference in pricing.

Good point, Allen.

There's also a question of semantics. Here's my theory:
A big Muddy/Mid Mo is undoubtedly an excellent value mandolin. But by not having a scroll, f-holes or a carved top/back, it differs from what many consider the most desirable construction style of mandolin (thanks to WSM) - the Loar F-5 Gibson. Since these features (particularly the scroll and carving) are expensive to build compared to flat top/no scroll, it is possible to produce a good mandolin for cheaper, but it looks and sounds different than the 'gold standard' model. So when someone asks 'why are mandolins so expensive?', my interpretation of their meaning is 'why are instruments that sound and look more or less similar to the gold standard of mandolin so expensive'.

This difference doesn't exist for guitar. The similar gold standard for steel string guitar would probably be a dreadnought (or maybe OM?) style, maybe a Martin? Other types of guitars certainly exist (archtops, cutaways, resonators, etc.), but these differences add complexity and expense, compared to 'something that looks, sounds, and plays similar to the gold standard' of acoustic guitars.

So really, mandolins and guitars are pretty similar in price, but the mandolins in greatest demand are more expensive to build than the guitars in greatest demand.

I don't really know if this is all true, but it kind of makes sense, no? That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

[frankenstein]

but no, folks will buy a pac-rim POS loaded to look like a Loar and sound like a sled.
:popcorn:[/QUOTE]

Hans, I posted a notion not dissimilar to this a few weeks ago and got totally flamed by all, I guess you aren't as annoying as me.. as for me i'd like to pay as much as possible..

[mandopixie]

Hans, I posted a notion not dissimilar to this a few weeks ago and got totally flamed by all, I guess you aren't as annoying as me.. as for me i'd like to pay as much as possible..

Naaah - that's not annoying..! :whistling:

[JeffD]

So really, mandolins and guitars are pretty similar in price, but the mandolins in greatest demand are more expensive to build than the guitars in greatest demand.

...


Well...

This is NOT scientific, or intended to be, but I think if you were to group mandolins and guitars into categories like:

Beginner model
Solid intermediate
All the instrument you will ever need (as a non professional)
Professional model
Custom professional

or some such grouping, that the mandolins within any category will cost roughly twice as much as the guitars in the same category. Not exactly of course, but roughly. And I imagine the exceptions would be in the higher reaches, professional and custom professional, where fewer are sold.

Yea we would not all agree on what mandolins go in each category, and there are specifics being ignored all over the place, but I think from a thousand miles away this view is not too innaccurate.

[mandopixie]

Well put, Jeff!

[DerTiefster]

Maybe I can try here. The forces involved with mandolins and their double strings are not small. The guitar is a larger-sized instrument and the top resonates more freely. A mandolin (probably) walks the edge of the fence a bit closer than a guitar does, requiring more attention.

Real wood varies in its characteristics and strength from piece to piece. The mandolin's smaller size means that its top has to move more relative to its size (more flexure) than the guitar to get the soundbox motion to push the air to put the sound where you want it (and this is the house the Jack built). That means to me that getting the desired tone is harder for the small instrument than for the larger one. Fewer people will be good at it, and it will be less likely to be reproducible just from the dimensions that you can program into an NC milling machine.

So there is more hand-effort by skilled luthiers required for a comparably good-sounding mandolin than for a guitar. I think. The violin has fewer strings and can be made of thinner sections of wood because the compressive forces of the strings on the top are smaller. But its tonal character is very different from the guitar or the mandolin, and I can't even begin to guess why a good viollin is so much pricier than a good mando or guitar. That one probably has a lot to do with the market audience.

Kitchens can be made with fancy router bits and a straight edge and ruler. And that's how it should be. What you see is what you pay for. For instruments, it's what you hear that you are paying for, and hearing doesn't care that the dimensions of the two pieces of wood are the same. Just my thoughts, for better or worse.

[Rick Banuelos]

really folks, try and get a br d-45 for $4k...say that's different? Don't think so.
Top of the line mandolin from a good builder for $4k? Don't think so.
Same difference. I'll say it again...folks want a loar for $4k. Builders offer instruments with less trim (d-28) for less and they sound just as good, but no, folks will buy a pac-rim pos loaded to look like a loar and sound like a sled.
:popcorn:

:)) :)) :)) :))

[billkilpatrick]

Maybe I can try here. The forces involved with mandolins and their double strings are not small. The guitar is a larger-sized instrument and the top resonates more freely. A mandolin (probably) walks the edge of the fence a bit closer than a guitar does, requiring more attention.

Real wood varies in its characteristics and strength from piece to piece. The mandolin's smaller size means that its top has to move more relative to its size (more flexure) than the guitar to get the soundbox motion to push the air to put the sound where you want it (and this is the house the Jack built). That means to me that getting the desired tone is harder for the small instrument than for the larger one. Fewer people will be good at it, and it will be less likely to be reproducible just from the dimensions that you can program into an NC milling machine.

So there is more hand-effort by skilled luthiers required for a comparably good-sounding mandolin than for a guitar. I think. The violin has fewer strings and can be made of thinner sections of wood because the compressive forces of the strings on the top are smaller. But its tonal character is very different from the guitar or the mandolin, and I can't even begin to guess why a good viollin is so much pricier than a good mando or guitar. That one probably has a lot to do with the market audience.

Kitchens can be made with fancy router bits and a straight edge and ruler. And that's how it should be. What you see is what you pay for. For instruments, it's what you hear that you are paying for, and hearing doesn't care that the dimensions of the two pieces of wood are the same. Just my thoughts, for better or worse.

excellent point - diminutive size could have a lot to do with it.

listen to what a fellow iconoclast made from a clothing drawer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhN1vI0eZxQ&feature=channel_page

... aesthetics aside, i hope you'll agree - it's not a bad sounding instrument.

the alchemy of a mike dulak produced flatback - so simple, so sweet ... so accessible ... so good - can get you to within a few feet of the summit of mandolin perfection but the distance that remains to the perceived "top" - hyped though it undoubtedly is - is reserved only for those of us with verrry deep pockets.

- bill*

[Michael Lewis]

The "Good Stuff" costs more than the standard fare because it takes more time, skill, and better materials. For those who know the difference between the really good stuff and the OK stuff few choose the lesser quality if they can afford the better.

As a professional luthier I have to make my time pay, as an artisan I strive to improve my craft, and as a person I have to be fair to myself and especially to my clients. It can be a tough business at times, but over the years it has been rewarding in many ways. I have made friends with many professional musicians and luthiers, gained access to many superior instruments, and this has grown my understanding of instruments and knowledge of materials and how to use them to best advantage. Better instruments cost more because they are better.~o)

[grassrootphilosopher]

I'll say it again...folks want a Loar for $4K. Builders offer instruments with less trim (D-28) for less and they sound just as good, but no, folks will buy a pac-rim POS loaded to look like a Loar and sound like a sled.

And here´s the doubble laugh :)) :))

Yes and yes! Hans is right!!!

On the other hand I would like to aproach the discussion a different angle. While it´s true that today´s handcrafted mandolins are rightfully higher priced than guitars (because of all that has been said before) there is a big difference in past/used/even "vintage" instruments.

Just check out Gibson A 40ies from back when or Strad-O-Lins or Shutts and what not (even though among them there are major price differnces). They are all different animals, of course. And they are not - and that is interesting - F 5 style mandolins. But they are significantly less expensive and they deliver. I may humbly guess, that they deliver better than your average pac-rim import.

So for a guitar to mandolin convert, an instrument buyer or a student of "the market" it may cause some shrugging of the shoulders and some wrinkling of the brow to see people buy your average Eastman and such (no slightening if the brand intended here) when there is basically the same thing available, only it´s used/vintage (check A 40, A 50, A 00, Martin 2-15, Strad-O-Lin...).

[Hans]

Check out some great guitar builders. You will find that they get as much as a great mandolin builder for their instruments. If I remember right Olson gets $13K for his starter flat top and his instruments are "machined". A midlin' Bourgeois is roughly $4-6K. If you are trying to compare a $10-20K mandolin to a D18 Martin, you are comparing apples to oranges. Considering the work involved in building an F5 compared to a flat top guitar, you can look at it this way...they are twice as much work, but the same price.

[DerTiefster]

Olaf's comments about names and used vs. new are right on from a marketing perspective. That is why there is a big business in advertising. People buy what they are familiar with. No one can now go into a store and buy a new Strad-O-Lin (with warranty), or even be confident that the store will have seen one in the last decade. So they don't show up on the "buy" list. Eastman and Mid-Mo and others from far and near will. It is only the experienced and "gets-around" musician who will have even heard one of the less common mandos like a Strad. Gibsons are more generally pricy and have scuffs. "The eyes have it" (even when the ears ought to) on the buy question.

(and yes, I do know how to spell aye.)

[JeffD]

Just check out Gibson A 40ies from back when or Strad-O-Lins or Shutts and what not (even though among them there are major price differnces). They are all different animals, of course. And they are not - and that is interesting - F 5 style mandolins. But they are significantly less expensive and they deliver. I may humbly guess, that they deliver better than your average pac-rim import...).

But wouldn't that be the period after the mandolin craze, when more mandolins were played per capita than guitars today - and before the guitar became pre-eminant, which would happen in the near future.

I am not confident in my history but I think I am close. It would have been a different market, more like the guitar market of today. Enough folks buying to justify a different kind of manufcture, a different kind of price point, different competition.

[dunwell]

:cool: How could anyone spend 200 working on about 3 sq ft of wood. I have built entire kitchens in less time than that encluding matching some hand carved doors. People that say its all built with hand tools are stupid?? Power tools are more precise. and a H### of a lot faster Does anyone even hint that Gison ,Weber or any other high end instruments are made by hand?? This is the same reason a lot of manufacturing job:popcorn::popcorn:s went overseas. My dad owned a hand craft store and and anyone who thought that they would even make min. wage were kidding them selfs it's a hobby get over it!! That's why I can buy a overseas Guitar Gold tone banjo and mandolins compaired with Gibsons It's not the instrument but the player! Keeping the prices up make this and an ellitest instrument compared to Guitars and even Banjo!! It's my dime and now I said it ( greatfull player of 6 string banjo bules and jazz ) :popcorn:

Heh, heh! <Bites tongue>
Alan D.

[Patrick Hull]

Well, someone spend less than 200 hours building a kitchen, but what kind of intonation would it have? : )

[fred d]

:)): Over on banjo hangout one guy took a lower end Fender banjo with a metal pot tuned it and set it up very well he also took a Gibson manstetone and did the same thing out of all the repplys only a couple could tell the difference and he did this twice!! Ya I know banjos but it sure pointed out ware most of the different tone comes from~:> as in so many things the higher cost doesn't mean a lot:whistling: What hapenes if someware down the road your music style changes for what ever reason?? Handy men here charge $35-$40 per hour and now you see Home depo Lowes ect very busy Let see a $10500 MANDOLIN not necessarly the very top of thr line equalys $500 materials and 200 hours ==$50 per hour with simple tools:whistling: Keep it up and mine will all support China:mandosmiley:

[JEStanek]

Keep buying what you want to buy, Fred. But the disrespectful manner you use on the builders will garner you few friends here. I think your estimate on materials is a bit off. Waverly tuners alone are $500-600 (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Mandolin,_F-style_tuners/Waverly_Mandolin_Machines.html) for mandolin machines. Highly figured woods, bindings, a cast tailpiece ($150 for the James Tailpiece), the cost of tools (even hand tools aren't cheap and I suspect you know how expensive power tools are), finishing materials, it all adds up. I think you're looking at a good bit less than $50/hour. I hope this illustrates some of the facts you might have glossed over with that very wide brush you've been painting mandolin builders with.

Should a photograph by Stieglitz or Adams sell for $30 because you can get posters on-line? No. Should you be forced to pay any more than you want for an instrument? Nope. Buy what you wish but understand there are others who do hear, see, and feel a difference.

A final note. Probably 90% of the new mandolins on the market cost less than $1000. These hand builders, even counting Gibson, Weber, Collings, Eastman, etc, are probably only putting out 10% of the market. Small shop builders (single person building) all combined probably only account for 1-2% of that 10%.

Please also remember the Posting Guidelines....

Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don't say anything on the message board that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.

Jamie

[fred d]

Its D### funny what moderators think and say ANTAGONIZE ya right I spent 6 years earning my rights to free speech Did you?? and I'm a disaled vet are you?? My 10 year old truck does the same thing as a new Rolls and the insurance on the Rolls would be more than my morage? So what I also use to make HAND made Archery equipment and figured if I made $oo.50 per hour but it was something I loved to do> Does anyone take their $25,000 mandolinds to gigs , and jams ,and what happens if someone steps on it or falls on it try to collect It seems to me that the essnce of having fun with music is lost here ! And please explane how when on stage with 4/5 others prehaps a singer or two amped itself or thru a PA system and one can tell the value of and instrument. Just Play on have fun but don't insult me with how much better your instrument is than mine Remember: that this goverment spent a lot of time teaching me that anything you or anyone else has could be mine due to the skills they tought :whistling: Just my Free spech

[MikeEdgerton]

Fred, we're giving you a pretty wide berth here because we know your history. You need to take a time out.

[fred d]

Its D### funny what moderators think and say ANTAGONIZE ya right I spent 6 years earning my rights to free speech Did you?? and I'm a disaled vet are you?? My 10 year old truck does the same thing as a new Rolls and the insurance on the Rolls would be more than my morage? So what I also use to make HAND made Archery equipment and figured if I made $oo.50 per hour but it was something I loved to do> Does anyone take their $25,000 mandolinds to gigs , and jams ,and what happens if someone steps on it or falls on it try to collect It seems to me that the essnce of having fun with music is lost here ! And please explane how when on stage with 4/5 others prehaps a singer or two amped itself or thru a PA system and one can tell the value of and instrument. Just Play on have fun but don't insult me with how much better your instrument is than mine Remember: that this goverment spent a lot of time teaching me that anything you or anyone else has could be mine due to the skills they tought :whistling: Just my Free speech