Those of you in bands....

[Barbara Shultz]

To those of you who are in bands, who perform for $$$$.... I've got a question. What is your band's feeling on performing for free? I'm not talking about jamming... I'm talking about actually performing somewhere. We have one gratis gig that we do, but the general concensus of the members of my band (who have been a band for quite a while) is that 'we are professionals, and we play for money'....

How about the rest of you?

Barb
(Heading to Texas momentarily!)

[allenhopkins]

The general feeling, of the three bands in which I play, is that we decide on a case-by-case basis. "Worthy cause," chance to reach a broader audience, "fun gig," joining friends, neat venue -- there are factors that would lead us to take a "freebie."

Over nearly 40 years I've become quite suspicious about gigs that promise "exposure." There are many disingenuous sponsors who really exploit the basic desire of musicians to perform, and I have a bit of an ingrained reluctance about "open mics" that seem to exist merely to allow the venue owner to present evenings of varied entertainment, for which he doesn't pay anything.

I usually respond either, "You can get arrested for exposure," or "People die from exposure." I've had, frankly, all the "exposure" my small-city area can give me over several decades.

But -- on the other hand, back in 1976, I was asked to do a "freebie" for an arts council luncheon. Couple people there from the Genesee Country Village restoration asked if I'd like to organize a performance there. Thirty-three years later, I'm still working there, and eight other musicians I recruited along the way are too. So, really, you never know. I wouldn't have a hard and fast rule against any freebie; I'd consider the ones that seemed to have a creditable upside.

[Michael Eck]

It's always a hard call, but I'm with Allen in saying "I'd consider the ones that seemed to have a creditable upside."

I've been playing gigs since 1982 in all manner of groups, from hardcore punk to Historic American Music. At this point, I have to admit, I generally want to be paid for my efforts, and I'm getting more and more bothered by how many presenters think musicians should be excited just to have the "opportunity" to play without pay.

On the other hand, I do love the fact that on the right occasions I can use music to give back, and we play benefits with some regularity.

I think the difference now is that when we play a benefit it is solely for causes we support and not just to get an "exposure' gig.

[Joel Spaulding]

Allen's wisdom is sound as usual. There are many good, charitable and fun reasons to take the occasional freebie.
OTOH if a band is trying to increase their "value", having numerous free gigs doesn't exactly imply they are in great demand.

When I gigged for a living in the big-hair rock world, we would occasionally turn down a low paying gig- even if it meant crippling the finances for a few weeks. We would accept "audition" gigs for low pay or a door deal - if the club was deemed a positive future opportunity.

I guess it depends on everyone's goals. In my last "pro" group some of the guys would practically play for nothing and had no problems having no car, no car insurance, health insurance, savings, gas money, a working vehicle , driver's license.... you get the picture. :crying:

If your band is in demand or even perceived demand, you should be able to ask for fair $$$. If you can convince the club owner that you guys improve his bottom line when you play you might be able to request even more $$$! :)

Good luck!

[Tim2723]

I agree entirely with Allen and Michael. You can die of 'exposure'.

We perform one show a year for the local performing arts council at the county fair. They make nothing on it and neither do we. It's art for art's sake, and a total charity. If someone is making a profit through your performance, you should be paid.

[MikeEdgerton]

I would be remiss to not point you to at least one of the discussions we've had on the subject. It brings a strong response.

Thread 1 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10643&highlight=Performing+for+free)

[Tim2723]

Yeah, strong emotions. Kind of like "Is it right for a DJ to make money off other's work?" and "Natural shell picks: Are they the shizzle?"

[tree]

I play in an amateur bluegrass gospel band. We've been around for 5 years or so, but we all hold day jobs (thankfully) which none of us plan to leave anytime soon. We play mostly in the counties surrounding community where we live, and occasionally travel out-of-state in the "region".

So, I probably don't fit into the response category that you were hoping to hear from. Still, not worrying over money really makes the music a lot more fun for me. We do play for pay occasionally, but nobody takes home a cut when we do. We plow it back into equipment, maintenance, use it to record with, or donate it to charity (usually Relay For Life, or programs in our church).

[dtb]

even though it's been many, many years ago. we would play for food, beer, or just about anything. when that time came, charging that is, with sound stuff, etc., and all of that I stated to see the end of the band thing, and sure enough we disbanded:)) most of us still jam to this day once a week or so, and remain great friends.

the summer before my stroke, I was just beginning to research the possibility of gigging again. dang, thank goodness for the stroke.:)):)):))

Dan

[Mark Walker]

Mike - thanks for pointing out that other thread. I recall reading all those responses back in the day.

I'm in a Gospel/Bluegrass band as well. We dont (yet) have a website, and don't really advertise - yet are pretty busy. We've done 'free' gigs where it benefited the local Bluegrass Music Association. Many churches where we provide three or four 'special music' tunes (in conjunction with the normal music in the service) we'll do for free - though most usually pony up something for gas. The interesting thing is that members of the congregations 'spread the word' and we usually wind up with paying gigs as an indirect result of playing at many churches.

I'd concur with both Allen and Michael as well. We've not encountered it yet (we've got 'paying' gigs lined up so far this coming summer/festival season - with one exception), but there certainly is the danger of exuding a perception you'll play for free. Most places - even many non-profits - will at least offer $50-$75 for an hour's worth of entertainment. (We're returning for our second show at a Salvation Army Senior Center in May - we did so last year too - and they insist on paying us 'a little something' for our time.)

But we certainly evaluate each job that's offered.

Good luck Barbara! :)

[T-Reds]

I've played in many bands and this question has numerous answers depending on the situation.

If you are relying on your gigs as a sole source of income my answer is no, with exceptions for good charitable organizations, or are giving back to an organization or person who gave you a hand in your carreer.

People not relying on playing to make a living/not interested in playing for a living. yes, with reservations. Must be a worth while cause.

People who want to play for a living, maybe. Again must be worthwhile for your career (opening for a group that could give you exposure you might not get on your own/might be able to help you advance your career)

People just playing for fun Why not. Gives you a reason to get out and play. I do realize that your time is worth something and it should not be the norm, but it could get you a regular job that does pay.

When I was playing for a living I whole heartedly believed in paying back those that helped me when I could. I also believe in paying it forward to the future generations.

[steve V. johnson]

I'll agree with Allen, too.

We do a mix of gigs including some charity work and some freebies. "Exposure" isn't of much value to us as our aspirations are not particularly to grow into media presences, but gigs that provide access to good crowds allow us to sell CDs, and in many cases we have booked good gigs from unpaid performances, so even 'free' gigs have some income potential.

To take that a little further, it seems to me that it's an important (perhaps essential) tool for musicians/bands to have ways to make $ from their products, and that can be a great hedge to allow bands to do free or potentially low-dough gigs with positive outcomes.

Here in Bloomington there is a great long tradition of benefit performances and some of the towns most influential artists have gone long times doing only benefit performances. Unusual, yes, but it happened. (It's not really likely to happen again, that was a very different time...)
And the tradition lives on with a lot of social conciousness and commitment from some of our best artists, so it's a part of the way we perform, too.

stv

[sbarnes]

we try to do at least one benefit/year....cancer society, mental health, etc.....all other requests are discussed but usually nixed unless there is some personal connection within the band.....never for exposure.....

[allenhopkins]

Developing the "exposure" theme: a few years ago my Celtic band agreed to get up and play at 5 a.m. on St. Patrick's day for the early news show on one of our local network TV channels, broadcast from an Irish-themed pub. Despite a snowstorm, two of our members drove 30+ miles and made it on time! The TV host said, "It's great exposure; every band we've had on the show has gotten several jobs afterwards." Well, we're still waiting; live and learn.

[Jim Nollman]

A year ago i was asked to open for a jazz player. I liked the event, plus the compensation he offered was fair enough for three players, so i accepted. I played fiddle tunes, originals, and some ragtime on mandolin for an hour with a guitar player and bass. Got the usual praise so i knew we'd done OK.

After the jazz group finished, i asked the leader if he had the money in hand, because i wanted to pay my two guys and go home. He hedged a moment, then confessed that at the last minute, he'd asked two players to join his own set, and felt obligated to pay them instead of my two guys, even though he'd already made the commitment. I couldn't believe it to the extent that i was literally speechless. When he pulled some money out of his pocket, apparently to pay me as a solo. I walked away from him.

I live in a small town, with more than the usual share of talented musicians. All the musicians know and work together. For some reason, what i didn't know at the time, is that almost nobody else will work with this guy. Now I know why. And as i said, the event was worthy. Plus, I don't depend on paying gigs to pay my rent.

Never had a problem like that — ever — with a promoter (as opposed to a musician) asking me to play a benefit. And I totally agree with Allen, that anyone who asks me to play a benefit, and then adds, "there's no money but lots of good exposure", has just handed me a non-negotiable reason to reject his offer.

[steve V. johnson]

"Exposure" is also a term used in the financial world to mean 'in danger'...

stv

[Nolan]

When I first started playing out I would have almost paid to play anywhere..... now it's just not worth it for me to X out an evening for little or no money. Shoot, just until recently I needed to make $50 just to cover my fuel. I'd rather be out doing stuff with my wife and kids than playing somewhere for free. Sometimes my band will take gigs on our normal practice night for not much money but we look at it just as that... a practice.

And while we're at it... does anyone else here have any experience with venues that seem to be making money off of being a "Live music venue" but they don't pay their musicians? I'm not talking open Mic, I mean having real bands come in and perform. We have a local place here that bands are falling over themselves to play at... but it doesn't pay anything?!? I don't understand why they are booked almost every night? Maybe it's as Allen says, they "exploit the basic desire of musicians to perform"
Oddly enough it's called the Mandolin Cafe...
http://www.themandolincafe.com/

I played there a few times but I don't anymore... it kinda bugs me that part of the reason they are doing so well is because they have live music yet they won't pass any of that along to the bands... but they claim to support local music? I think what they really mean is "We support you coming to see live music and in the process buying a glass of wine and a sandwich".

[Steve Ostrander]

It's funny how people think you shouldn't get paid because "your'e having fun up there!" We always say, "your'e not paying us for the gig, your'e paying us for the countless hours of practicing."

Having said that, I once played a benefit for a little girl who needed a heart transplant. Probably the most satisfying gig I ever played.

So it just depends, I guess.

[Bob Wiegers]

I aint up to most of yalls level yet. I just played my first gig. got paid with 2 very large cookies. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. right now it's too much fun to turn down, and I'm too inexperienced to ask for much compensation. that said, I have a goal of funding a new mando with whatever proceeds I may get from gigs. we'll see if it's a Rover or a Weber...

[Santiago]

I'm not a pro musician, but I've spent time in the business. I say, once you set your price you need to defend it. That said, nothing promotes your career like involvement with high-visibility charity benefits. It's not just good for you (emotionally and career-wise), it's good for the community of course. It highlights you as important to that community, to being a vibrant member of that community. For being good stand-up people. But with that type of exception you also need to establish well the need to be paid well for what you do. Nothing wrong with being paid in cookies, unless you're trying to feed the family. As a pro, you can't afford to be paid in cookies.

[Bob Wiegers]

Nothing wrong with being paid in cookies, unless you're trying to feed the family. As a pro, you can't afford to be paid in cookies.

I fully agree. I'm glad this day job can support my habits (family, music, cookies, mandolincafe, etc)

[Patrick Sylvest]

I play for free at church on Sunday mornings.

It's a case by case basis with us. We played an Arts Walk for nothing on Friday and made $100 in tips and sold a dozen cd's and 3000 people passed by during the evening.....several hundred in our vicinity at any given time. That's my kind of freebie; exposure and a little cash. If I do it for nothing, a tip jar will definitely be involved. Pay me enough and I'll leave it in the car!

It's important to me not to waste the valuable time of my bandmembers who have families and personal lives to consider. Two are students, one has a small child. I can't ask my guitarist to leave his kid repeatedly just to go have some fun entertaining. Time has value and I value my bandmates.

Here's the question; Do you know how to get paid?
The first thing you have to do is to learn to ask for money. Call it compensation, expenses, remuneration, etc. These terms go a long way. How much do I charge? "What's your budget, Sir?"
Secondly, provide a professional service onstage....a planned setlist to kick off the gig. After you earn the audiences' attention, you can go through the 'what's next?' routine. Dress the part and behave like gentlemen and ladies.
Thirdly, agree with the establishment in advance on what's included. We play a couple of restaurants that provide us a meal and a few cocktails. A few, not Fourteen!!! Just because they're 'comping' the beer is no reason to get trashed. See suggestion #2.

I play for free. It depends who's askin' me to play where.;)

[epicentre]

:cool: " If ya wanna dance ya gotta pay the band."......."Willy Nelson"....???

:mandosmiley:

[F-2 Dave]

My band has played in the same area around and in the local metropolis of about 10,000 for the last 25 years or so. All four of us have our pet causes.
We usually never charge a fee for playing a church (but will accept a love offering. sometimes there is one and sometimes not) We don't charge for playing for Relay for Life functions. Besides that, we usually try to charge the same rate for every where that we play. As I mentioned, we live and work in a small town area. If you book a show for $100 a man one week and do a similar gig for free the next week your first booking is apt to find out and you'll lose that event next year. We do a few benefits occasionally that we don't charge for. Hope this helps.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

It is on a case by case basis for me and "the fellows". Some nights we play a monster three sets and walk away with $100-$300 per person but the crowd is stiff and no fun; other nights both the crowd and the band have a fantastic time, but at the end of the night we end up paying the bar $200...

j.
www.condino.com

[mandopete]

You guys get paid for doing this? I gotta look into that!

[Randi Gormley]

Our band is a different situation (we all play for free. the money we make goes into a general fund that we use to pay for "real" musicians we invite over from Ireland), but we determine what we charge based on venue, time of year, ability of the asker to pay and the number and level of expertise of the musicians. We do the occasional freebie -- our home base on St. Patrick's Day gets a free show since they allow us to practice/hold a session once a week gratis (no rent); the St. Patrick's Day parade committee usually gets a free gig, and if we're asked to play for some school children in the worst part of town at the most economically challenged neighborhoods, we do it for love -- but a more affluent school or nursing home gets charged, a private party gets charged more, a university gig still more and a wedding our top price. We had decided to cut out any gig that pays us less than $250 (our 'real' concert schedule is set a year in advance and we have to pay for the bands we invite over) but we'll make exceptions on a case-by-case basis still.

[Ben Lyman]

I always say, "Of course we will play for free, but each musician gets $250 to haul equipment, set it up, break it down and haul it back home."

[mrbook]

When our band started out we played all kinds of gigs, many for free. Now we do one free show every year for a camp for disabled people, and we play free at a festival put on by our local bluegrass association (along with every other band). We will play other good causes for free, but not every one that asks. You don't really get much exposure, and my feeling is that groups that want free entertainers usually make only a minimal effort to publicize the event - since the entertainment is free, they don't lose out if it's not successful. If I agree to play for free, I expect the group to try to get us a good audience to make our performance worthwhile for them and for us.

We will do other events for free, like for any church or other group a band member is involved with. We will always lend our time and talent (such as it is) to a cause that matters to us. However, I never expect such gigs to be a stepping stone to real paying opportunities - it happens, but only rarely. Free gigs usually only lead to more offers for the same. It's also nice to use you music to really help a cause, though.

We have had some interesting experiences. We once played a benefit to settle some bills for a guy who died. We didn't know him, but the organizer hired us for paying gigs. We found out later we helped settle his bar bill.

[Jon Hall]

Barbara

Where are you headed in Texas? It's a big state and full of jaming musicians.

Neither of the two groups I'm in have a problem with free gigs. There are gigs we turn down, regardless of the compensation or lack of, simply because someone or all of the group has a concern about playing it.

About 20% of my income is derived from teaching guitar and mandolin and I think of performing for any audience as a opportunity to promote myself as a teacher.

[Chris Willingham]

We're not very good, but we do several free shows for chambers of commerce and civic clubs. BUT only if the organizer doesn't make public that we're playing for free. Have always had good luck and usually recieve at least $50 in tips and most of the time the performance leads to several paying gigs.

For example, played a black tie dinner for free a month ago (Bluegrass in tuxedos :confused:, I know) hosted by a local museum. Got $180 in tips and became the house band for all museum events were they need music. Free shows, few and farbetween, aren't too bad, IMO.

[Barbara Shultz]

Barbara

Where are you headed in Texas? It's a big state and full of jaming musicians.



Finally arrived this evening (Thursday) just south of Houston. Am planning to try to spend at least one night in the next 9 days, in Austin. I'm going on a day bus trip tomorrow, with a group my sister belongs to, to the Brenham area, to see the beautiful Texas wildflowers... usually *I'm* the one driving, so I don't get to fully enjoy them! Then, the Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo both Saturday & Sunday... and gotta cram as much 'grandbaby' love in that I can~

[Jimmy Kittle]

I'm on the other side of the fence. Each year I put on a bluegrass show to benefit Cystic Fibrosis. I have had great response from the bands donating thier talents. I couldn't do this without the musicians. All the money raised goes to CF. The issue I always have is, "there are never enough words to thank them for thier support".

[Schlegel]

We're just now feeling good enough that we won't play if we have to pay to get in!:)

I don't know know of any other bands in a multi-city radius that play the same style as us, so I know we're not depriving anybody of paying gigs. We are working at getting good enough to be able to exchange money for our time, though. One day...

[Tim Bowen]

I usually do a couple of pro bono shows a year (research for cancer, leukemia, etc; funding for homeless kids and such). It's GOTTA be legitimate. I'll say that I do these things because I support the cause - but I do always see other workers and vendors being paid for their services at these events, and I have to get in a dig or two... sorry, can't help myself. "Artists" have a "gift from God and should share their talent with the world". Yeah, okay... dentists have a talent as well. Maybe they should provide free dentistry for good causes.

That said, I definitely DO NOT regret the few pro bono jobs that I do, and my above observations are more from the snide "oh yeah, I thought it was a BENEFIT" camp - which I mostly keep to myself.

I do earn 100% of my income as a musician, so other than for the charity events that I deem worthy, I have a minimum dollar figure in mind before I'll tote my gear out of the house. I've been working as a musician regularly since the 70's, so the idea of sitting at home in a pair of pajamas and munching a bowl of Cap'n Crunch and watching Warner Bros. cartoons is far more appealing to me personally than is that of going out to do any sort of work which wage does not accurately represent my expended efforts.

The one thing that I would adamantly say to my musical brothers and sisters is that it's simply a bad idea to go play a bar for "exposure" when you see money being transferred for cover, food, drinks, or 'you name it'. Venue operators LOVE the fact that so many are of the mindset that musicians are willing to play for free - and why wouldn't they... the act has brought in its friends who consume beer and wings and whatnots. As long as folks are going to play for free, opportunists are going to take advantage of it, it's just that simple. There's nothing wrong with playing for free, just make sure of the situation. If a young musician desires some experience, playing at a house party for free is fine. Playing for free in an establishment that is turning profit is a horrible thing to do to your working brothers and sisters - it truly is the equivalent of supporting sweatshop wages in a third world country, and it absolutely undermines the notion of musician as occupation.

I've done a fair amount of "work" in Nashville in recent years. For a town that calls itself "Music City U.S.A.", it certainly enjoys taking in tourist dollars hand-over-fist while paying the bulk of its working musicians next to nothing, simply for the 'privilege' of playing "there". When I've done "showcase" 45 minute sets in that town for the benefit of some producer or some AR guy that may or may not have decided to show up, I've required $100.00 pure profit, with all expenses paid. It doesn't bother me in the least if a project leader wants to get somebody else; again, I really enjoy being at home, and I've got work to do.

It took me years to get on the same page with all of this with my family. A couple of common scenarios:

1.) My neice/nephew/son/daughter/brother/sister/friend/associate is getting married. We'd LOVE to have you play for us!

2.) How come you never show up for our annual Christmas party?

3.) We'd LOVE to have you come sing and play at our annual Christmas party!



1.) That's cool. When and where is the event, and what's the budget?

2.) Because you always schedule the party in December on a Saturday, with short notice. I book a month or two in advance, and for the Holiday season, it's not unusual to start booking 3-4 months in advance. Most folks relax on the weekend, but that's when I work the most. If there are 52 Saturdays in a year, I'm working 49-50 of 'em. I'd love to attend, really I would. I won't ask you to change your approach just for little ol' me, but please don't treat me like the black sheep simply because my line of work contains parameters that you're not familiar with.

3.) Ummm, yeah. Actually, I rarely have opportunity to go out socially. For those occasions, it would be really nice to leave the work tools at home and just hang out and talk for a change. Thanks.




As with any occupational pursuit, nobody is interested in taking you seriously until you first do so for yourself.

[Mike Snyder]

I gig very little, these days, but I had my moments. You've got to be careful and have your eyes wide open. It builds a lot of good will to play for legit charities, can be very fulfilling. I have, however, been "duped" (I was the dupe) into playing free gigs, only to find out later that another group of musicians were axed from a paying gig as soon as I signed on. They were righteously PO'd.
The person who signed us on had no intention of being forthright about the situation, and spent the saved money on upscale beverages. Some of those guys are still mad at me over 20+ years later. I was stupid. Mea culpa all to heck. It wasn't worth a couple of glasses of champagne.

[Tim2723]

As with any occupational pursuit, nobody is interested in taking you seriously until you first do so for yourself.


Tim, can I use that one?

[MikeEdgerton]

It's all in the way you look at it. I don't support myself as a musician although I play out several times a month. I get paid for some, some I do free. To me it's a hobby. I can make a heck of a lot more doing consulting in my field than I can playing music. Some guys golf. I choose to play music. I admire anyone that can make a living doing this. I have no aspirations to go that route.

[Tim Bowen]

Tim, can I use that one?

Sure!

[jim_n_virginia]

I don't think there is anything wrong with doing a charity gig occasionally for a good cause. I myself have been involved with a non profit organization that provides music to nursing homes, assisted living facilities, Special needs kids camp etc. for 4 or 5 years now since they started. I do one 55 minute show a month for them.

It's not techniqually a freebie anymore because while their first few years when they were strapped for cash I played (with friends or whatever band I am playing with) for no money but now they have sponsors and grants so there is a small stipend but it's not much just enough to cover everyone's gas and maybe lunch after the gig.

Now I DO take issue with the halfway proficient musicians or bands (who are usually loaded) who will play EVERY gig for free or for food or beer. These people make it VERY hard for those who are trying to make some sort of a living at it.

I remember when I asked Herschel Sizemore when I was studying his style of playing for a while if he ever jammed with buddies or went to local jams or open mic nights.

He looked at me like I was NUTS and said very simply

... "No pay, NO PLAY!" :))

[Tim2723]

For me it's a simple rule: Hobbyist or professional, paid or charity, we are free to do what we whish as long as we don't harm anyone else in the process.

[JeffD]

We have had some interesting experiences. We once played a benefit to settle some bills for a guy who died. We didn't know him, but the organizer hired us for paying gigs. We found out later we helped settle his bar bill.

There are worse causes to find you have supported. Lots worse.

[JeffD]

only to find out later that another group of musicians were axed from a paying gig as soon as I signed on. .

That is the real problem - that's how others can get hurt. How does a band compete with "free", especially when the venue is not particular about the quality of the music?

On the other hand, there are many places where live music would do folks a lot of good, but there isn't a budget to pay for it.

[stratman62]

If I'm moving the PA, I'm getting paid. If someone is making money off of my efforts, I'm
getting paid. If someone needs help, I'll jump right in. I've had all the exposure I can stand.
To me, this is not a business I'm in, but rather a lifestyle. I would just as soon pick in your
kitchen than play in front of 50,000, and I've done both more than once. I'm not for sale,
but I can be rented. I really just like to play. It's what I do.

[catmandu2]

So many variables on this subject. I have one rule I like to stick by: I try to avoid playing a three-hour dance for no pay. Everything else is negotiable (not necessarily by plan, but practicality).

[JeffD]

. I have one rule I like to stick by: I try to avoid playing a three-hour dance for no pay. .

Been there, more than once.

I take the whimps creed on these things

I AM MAD AS HECK AND I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE IT TOO MANY MORE TIMES

[woodwizard]

What?! ... play for free?! You mean not even any free food or beer!?? :disbelief::confused::)) Just kidding. I'm with Mike ... we take it case by case. I've had a lot of fun at some free gigs in the past. We just try not to make a practice of it and when we do it is a practice I guess. We all as band members have to be 100% in agreement to do it tho before we acept.

[bobby bill]

Now I DO take issue with the halfway proficient musicians or bands (who are usually loaded) who will play EVERY gig for free or for food or beer. These people make it VERY hard for those who are trying to make some sort of a living at it.


Hello. I am a halfway proficient musician who plays the majority of the time for free or for food or beer while occasionally loaded. Why is this an issue?

I understand the frustration of not being able to make a living as a musician. Very few people in this world have the opportunity to do what they love and earn a living at the same time. But I do not think that pointing the finger at other musicians is the answer. I could stop my halfway proficient mandolin playing today, but you will not find yourself tomorrow in a limousine being chased by nubile groupies throwing rose petals as a result.

It may seem unfair that musicians, more than any other group of people, are asked to donate their time to causes. At the same time, I am proud to be among a group of people that answer that call.

[Ken Sager]

Your first statement is not an issue.

Your mis-characterization (limousines and groupies?) doesn't change the fact that people who play for free take gigs away from others who try to make a living playing music. The more often some folks will play for free the less often other people will pay for live music.

The cool thing is that it's a free market, and you are free to under-bid better musicians at will.

If you think musicians feel entitled to make money playing music you're wrong. They do, however, feel entitled to be treated with respect. Just like asking a working musician to play for free, assuming working musicians are only after limousines and nubile groupies isn't being respectful.


Hello. I am a halfway proficient musician who plays the majority of the time for free or for food or beer while occasionally loaded. Why is this an issue?

I understand the frustration of not being able to make a living as a musician. Very few people in this world have the opportunity to do what they love and earn a living at the same time. But I do not think that pointing the finger at other musicians is the answer. I could stop my halfway proficient mandolin playing today, but you will not find yourself tomorrow in a limousine being chased by nubile groupies throwing rose petals as a result.

It may seem unfair that musicians, more than any other group of people, are asked to donate their time to causes. At the same time, I am proud to be among a group of people that answer that call.

[allenhopkins]

It was either Michael Cooney or Mike Agranoff, in a Sing Out! column many years ago, who made a statement along the lines of "It's hard to make a living wage doing what many people are willing to do for nothing."

Don't know if this is entirely accurate; people do make a living playing music, as well as painting, cooking, writing -- even s-x, I understand! I guess you just have to be a lot better at it than the many eager amateurs and semi-pros who are willing to ply their trades for free.

But really, getting resentful does nothing to improve the situation -- or one's disposition. Music is recreation as well as profession, and many a musician is "paid" sufficiently by the experience of producing music, sometimes in front of an audience, sometimes just for his/her own private enjoyment.

If music presenters get a more reliable, better quality, more marketable and attractive brand of music by hiring a professional group, and it makes economic sense for them to do so, they will do so. Strays away quite a bit from the original question, which was "should a professional group ever take 'freebie' gigs, and if so, when?" And I would reiterate that I would say, evaluate them on a case-by-case basis, and make the choices that fit best with your preferences, professional status and goals, and resources.

[bobby bill]

Just like asking a working musician to play for free, assuming working musicians are only after limousines and nubile groupies isn't being respectful.


You are correct about the latter half and I apologize for my comment. My sarcasm filter was down.

[Barbara Shultz]

Thanks for all the input!

As far as 'making a living' as professional musicians... we are far from that. But, when you take into consideration the time and effort that a band spends practicing, and getting to the point that they can charge for performances...

Our band gets together twice a week, and practices each time for about 4 hours, maybe longer. I drive 100 miles round trip each time, for that practice session. The band member whose house we practice at... well, she's a great hostess, so she provides refreshments.. AND cooks dinner for us, as well!

We don't have that many paying gigs, so when we do have one, it doesn't really cover much more that our actual time we are performing!

I do believe that gratis gigs are sometimes in order, and should be decided on a case to case basis!

Barbara

[Pen]

My band is fairly active - usually about 3-4 paying gigs a month. We usually do 1-2 comp gigs a year. This is what we look at

1) Who's making money off this?
2) Is this primarily a volunteer event - or are most of the other vendors getting paid?
3) Does the band have a personal connection with the charity or event?

So, we've played some comp personal parties - and then a few really worthy charity events. Exposure? As has been said a few times here, I don't need exposure. Also, more times than not - you get what you pay for.

On a side note, I just found out that half our band is out of town for the annual Relay for Life (Cancer Walk) in August and we can't play this year. About every large community in the USA has one and if any of you is thinking about a freebie event, I couldn't recommend it more. I cry at it every year. And they where going to let us close this year! Oh well.....