String question

[alb]

For attempting to get a bit more "choro" sound out of a standard U.S. bluegrass instrument, I'm thinking of switching strings. While I'd love to just go out and buy one of every type, I thought I'd at least ask first if the Thomastik's are really that much different than a 'normal" D'Addario or Ernie Ball? I've used Monel's before, sort of like the 'flat' sound, without the 'brassy' bluegrass ring of Phospor/Bronze to it. At JustStrings I can also try Savarez or Rotosound. Anyone have experience with them?

From those of you playing choro, what's your thoughts? Is it more the instrument than the strings? I don't know what kind of strings the guys playing the Brazilian bandolim's/mandolin's are normally using.

Thanks in advance...

al in PT

[marcos p]

hamilton uses "elixir " other uses "D'Addario's"

[Dolamon]

Normally - whatever that is - Bandolim are a shorter scale instrument with flat fret boards and they are strung a bit lighter with very low action ... Given those constraints, I've had reasonible success on bandolims with the LaBella classicals, silver wounds (LAB 770L). These go down to a .09 high E and I really needed to watch the winding on the loop ends on this string set. I've also used them on my Larson's and an old Martin A I had with good results.

For other more demanding, longer scale instruments, I've found reasonable playability and sound generation from Elixer Lights, Nano wound. I've used these on both my Sawchyn A2 and Breedlove Quartz. They work well on the Sawchyn but are a bit iffy on the Breedlove. Every instrument requires a bit of fiddling with until you find a sound and an action which satisfies it and your needs. I also found that the Ultra, Ultrem picks in the .73 or .80 thickness seemed to drive the strings a bit better than heavier picks. But then, that's me ... your results may be different.

[Doug Hoople]

From those of you playing choro, what's your thoughts? Is it more the instrument than the strings? I don't know what kind of strings the guys playing the Brazilian bandolim's/mandolin's are normally using.


Hi Al,

It's kind of a complicated thing.

First off, if you're really looking for that bandolim sound, then you need a bandolim. Period.

Second, there's a whole raft of purists who think that playing choro on a bluegrass ax sounds like poser cr@p.

Third, just to prove them wrong, Mike Marshall plays choro extensively on his F5, and the Brazilians themselves (Hamilton, Danilo, Dudu, etc.) love him. Hamilton calls him his 'brother' and they have recording projects planned for the future. Mike generally puts the usual D'Addario J74s on his instruments.

Fourth, it's probably a bit futile to try to make an F-style mando sound like a bandolim. You're better off trying to make an F-style play like an F-style, and to learn how its voice can speak choro with an 'American accent,' so to speak. Again, Mike is proof that the right accent is not offensive to Brazilian ears.

I mean, nobody ever tried to get Louis Armstrong to clean up and sound like Samuel Ramey (famous opera singer), did they? And we wouldn't have bothered listening to Maurice Chevalier if his English wasn't colored with that amazing French accent, would we?

Minor danger alert, though... the wrong accent will be like fingernails on a blackboard. Just imagine some of the fake Southern accents you've heard that have ruined otherwise perfectly good films! .

FWIW, I play an f-hole 2-pointer, which features a bit more sustain and a bit less woody chop than an F5, but it's still an indisputably American-style arched mandolin. I've experimented with flatwound strings and a few others, but the instrument was built with J74s in mind, and sounds best with J74s. You need to play with the strings that give your instrument its best voice, and then work the sound as your instrument is capable of rendering it. The way I play choro on it reflects both the way the instrument sounds and some measure (I hope) of Brazilian influence. I'm pretty sure I'd modify my approach if I were playing a bandolim.

Again, the only way to truly get that Brazilian sound is to get a bandolim. Listen to Jesse Appelman, for example, or Eva Scow when she's still channeling Jacob. They both sound very true to the source, and they both play bandolims.

If you're going play choro on your F5, don't try to make it something it's not. That would be like taking the gravel out of Louis' singing voice!

[Mark Levesque]

I think the Savarez strings have a very similar feel to the Rouxinol bandolim strings.
I have since sold the mandolin that I bought the Savarez strings for, so I would do a string swap if you are interested.

[alb]

Thanks all! I agree that it's just a matter of time before I go back to Rio and get a Bandolim. Should have bought one while I was there but I wasn't as crazy about the music as I've become since then. I'm trying to get through until then with a more 'bandolim' sound on my F5, and also on my Arrow. I understand exactly what you mean when you say that I should try and get an bandolim "accent" on my F5. I just picked up a variety of lighter and steel strings from the local string merchant at the Seattle Mandolin Orchestra tonight (had fun with them, thanks Alan!). I'll give them a spin to see how it affects the sound.

[Doug Hoople]

I understand exactly what you mean when you say that I should try and get an bandolim "accent" on my F5. I just picked up a variety of lighter and steel strings from the local string merchant at the Seattle Mandolin Orchestra tonight (had fun with them, thanks Alan!). I'll give them a spin to see how it affects the sound.

Actually, I'm not sure. I was saying that you shouldn't try to get your mandolin to sound like something it's not, and, in particular it's going to be very hard to get an arched mandolin to sound like a bandolim through a change of strings.

My own attempts in this area led to a "worst of both worlds" sound, so I've returned to the J74s, and my instrument sounds better that way, even if it doesn't sound like a bandolim.

Still, don't let me stop you from trying it out. String changes are cheap and easy, so have at it!

[alb]

Well, after finding that my old 1919 A sounded the most like a bandolim, but not really, I got lucky and found a used 2000 J.Batista at the Mandolin Symposium, (rosewood sides and back, beautiful tone), so I'm back to looking for Rouxinol (which it had on it) or something similar. I'll see how things shape up, and use these till their dead!

And yes, it has a most distinctive tone, that even the 1919 doesn't match.

[Jesse Appelman]

For what it's worth, I use J67's on my Joao Batista bandolim, and it certainly doesn't sound more like an F5 because of that. I tried to use Rouxinols when I was in Rio, but after 3 consecutive E strings broke while bringing them up to pitch (true!), I gave up.

I agree with Doug that it's definitely more the instrument than the strings. If you want your F5 to sound like it has more of a Brazilian accent, I'd stick with whatever strings give the instrument it's best overall tonality (probably whatever you're used to using) and focus on learning the idiosyncracies of choro melodic phrasing. Trills, tremolo of varying speed with vibrato, gliss up to notes, playing certain notes staccato and others more legato to make it groove right, etc. Pick a short phrase from Jacob - 4 bars or so - and play along with it over and over until you can mimic every detail of the phrasing and dynamics. Then pick another phrase and do it again. The Amazing Slow Downer is helpful.

Have fun!

[alb]

Thanks Jesse. Yes, I agree with your ideas, and have been doing just that. Listening with slow downer to Jacob's phrasing is quite eye (or should it be ear) opening. Trying to imitate the various phrasing that he was doing is quite difficult without seeing it done, as we did at the Symposium. Some of it relies on the various techniques you mention being done extremely fast (I wondered how Jacob got that 'mewing' sound to some of his pull offs). After watching Danilo in particular for a while, I think I "got" what I had been hearing on the tunes. Now to put into action. Should only take, ummm, 30 years or so...

I think you also answered my question, as to whether the Brazilian strings were going to give me a better sound. It appears not. I've also been using the 67's to get a better feel to it. Actually playing a bandolim, with it's more brilliant tone and deep bass response, is also giving me a different sound to the music, one, of course, more choro like.

Ultimately, I should probably just focus on the stylistic issues and ability to memorize the tunes. The F5 I have certainly has beautiful tone, as does the bandolim. The strings seem to have a minor impact. Now as to that pick....

Thanks for all your thoughts.