Collings MF5 Varnish

[Cactus Jack]

Cotton Music Center in Nashville had, and sold, a Collings MF5 Varnish. Has anyone played one, or better yet, compared one to a Collings nitro finish? I don't know the price of a varnish, but soon we'll probably all know....

[mandopete]

Post a picture if you find one.

[troika]

There are some good pics here:cottenmusic.com (http://www.cottenmusic.com/inventory.html)

[dasspunk]

Wow...

[troika]

Kinda looks like every other Collings......perfect. I'd love to A/B it with a laquer one.

[mandopete]

O.M.G.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Kinda looks like every other Collings......
Go to the Cotten music site and look at the peghead inlay. That'll change your tune!

That's an exquisite fern design, if I ever saw one!

[Jim Hilburn]

This is without a doubt the most perfectly built F-5 I've ever seen. That's the kind of thing I shoot for ,but usually fall short.
This is the first Collings F I've seen with the blk/whi. lines on the face, and they obviously waited until they could do it right.
Now, if they could just take the photo's somewhere other than the liftgate of a truck.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Oh, I couldn't let Scott T. out-acquire me; I ordered one of these puppies!

[Rick Schmidlin]

I hear they are listed around $12,000

Rick
PS

Greg Boyd has one on order but it's pre sold

[mandoJeremy]

Jim says: "This is without a doubt the most perfectly built F-5 I've ever seen. That's the kind of thing I shoot for ,but usually fall short."

Now Jim, every picture I have seen of yours seem to not fall short in ANY way and they look quite perfect to me! I want one some day!

[mandolooter]

couldn't find it at da Cotton site but would still love to see that peghead... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Scott Tichenor]

I just called Kim and Darcy at Cotten Music and asked if they'd repost that mandolin even though it had sold and they've done so. I told them it'd be nice so folks could see one since it was #1 and #2, etc. is yet to be completed. I too played this one at the NAMM show and it was hitting on all cylinders for me. Kim said they have another on order and she also has more pictures of the one that sold but they're at home on her personal PC. I told her if she'd email them to me I'd post them out here.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

couldn't find it at da Cotton site but would still love to see that peghead... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Here's MY next mandolin's peghead. . .

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Greg Boyd has one on order but it's pre sold
Yep! See previous post w/peghead.

You think it sounds amazing?

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I've never heard a bad Collings anything . . .guitar, mandolin, whatever. Some are just more incredible than the others.

[mandorado]

That is one beatutiful piece of work ... awesome.
Think I'll add one to my wish list.

[troika]

I can personally attest to the extremely fine craftsmanship of every single Collings instrument I've ever seen or played. I own three. They're all marvels. Not a single flaw; visually, aurally, or otherwise. Collings instruments are all right..every one of them.

[Stephen Perry]

What does Collings mean by "varnish" as opposed to lacquer? I make violins. In my world varnish includes about 200000000000 separate recipes breaking out into solution varnishes (generally either spirit or turpentine) and cooked-oil varnishes.

[troika]

I have a blonde Collings mf5 that I consider to have the most killer tone I have ever experienced. Could it be that "The Varnished One" will surpass it? no.....NOOOOOOOO!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[mandopete]

Oh, I couldn't let Scott T. out-acquire me; I ordered one of these puppies!
Hey Fred - is that going to be #4?

[mandopete]

This is without a doubt the most perfectly built F-5 I've ever seen. That's the kind of thing I shoot for ,but usually fall short.
Dude - wrong! #I've seen your work and I think you are one of the few luthiers that are in the same league as Collings (and your photos are much better too)!

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

[Hey Fred - is that going to be #4?
Maybe 2 or 3, I'm selling as many of the current collection as I can.

[Jim Hilburn]

I've been away for the last couple of days,so I haven't had a chance to reply. Jeremy & Pete, thanks for the kind words, but I know what I'm doing, and I mostly know what they're doing, and they win.
But on the other hand, I've never gotten half what they get for their new ones and mine probably take about 10 times as long to build.

[Scotti Adams]

..well..if it means anything to Jim..Id rather have a hand built instrument than a machine cut one any day..To me those are worth twice as much than a robot making one..theres no reason you cant get as much money out of yours...thats just my opinion...and Im sticking to it.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandoJeremy]

Well Jim, my next mandolin is going to be one of yours and I don't how long that is going to take but I very much hope it is before the secret is out about you and your mandos! It still say that you are to be one of the next Dudes and Gils. Just my opinion but I do know when I see perfection and that you do have.

[Jim Hilburn]

Thanks Scottie and Jeremy.
Now, remember, this thread is about Collings and not me.

[mandoJeremy]

Okay, but perfection was mentioned and I had to speak my mind! I also just had to visit your website again and drool over the photos.

[rose#1]

I agree......Mr Hilburns mandos are some of the most flawless looking mandos on the planet I also know what it is like put tremendous time and effort into creating somthing from a log of wood and then only getting a 1/4 of what it is worth. After buying the case, hardware, wood, etc. I end up making about $5.00 an hour off the mando but still I find myself in the shop every chance I get how crazy is that?

Darby

[mandoJeremy]

Darby, trust me dude your mandos are also on my wishlist and especially after listening to that video of the guy playing one of yours and it had such deep, deep tone. #It is funny that you mention the money thing because all of the builders I have talked with and endorsed over the years were always straight forward in letting people know that after they calculated the hours they had in a mando and how much they sold it for they were barely making minimum wage. #I guess it is the same for builders as musicians.....you do what you do because you love it, live it, breathe it, and not because it will make you rich!

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

At least we're not thinking about BRW's now.

[mandoJeremy]

I know, we're thinking about Hilburn's and Rose's!

[mandoJeremy]

....and dare I say it, I am not thinking about a Collings. No flames please!

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I have to say, I, too loved the Hillburn mandolins I've seen posted here. So many mandos, so little time!

[Scotti Adams]

At least we're not thinking about BRW's now.
geesh..cant a guy catch a break around here?....no sucker punches boys http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

You wouldn't believe how close I came to getting one, Scotti. I really can't believe how many great mandolins there are out there!

[Scotti Adams]

yea....I knew you were thinkin about one....lol

[Scott Tichenor]

Pictures from Kim Sherman of the one that sold:

[Scott Tichenor]

More of the head

[Scott Tichenor]

side

[Scott Tichenor]

binding

[Scott Tichenor]

back

[Scott Tichenor]

face

[Scott Tichenor]

scroll

[Scott Tichenor]

Waverly tuners

[Scott Tichenor]

the end

[Jim Hilburn]

The peghead shot is proof positive the binding is done by CNC. You can see the ivoroid grain is all running in one direction. It's not bound at all, it's one solid piece of ivoroid cut out by machine, although I'm not sure how they do the blk./whi. lines.

[mandopete]

Sick!

[Kevin K]

Jim,
That's attention to detail. So how do you think that is done like that?

If even done my machine, that is impressive.

[Jim Hilburn]

I'm not saying anything negative about how it's done. Collings freely shows how they do this in their factory tours. And it's how to do repeatable perfection.

[Cactus Jack]

Not being a mandolin maker I don't know much about varnish, except there appears to be different kinds. Cotton Music describes the Collings Mando Varnish as, "tung oil varnish." Hans Brentrup's site states, "Hand vignette European violin varnish." Heiden's site states, "varnish." Tony Williamson told me that Gibson uses their own receipe of varnish. Maybe some experts can come in here and list properties of the Collings' tung oil varnish, positives, negatives, etc. I'm sure you all noticed that the Collings varnish model doesn't have a pickguard, which could put some serious marks on the top by players who make contact with the top of the mando with their picks?

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I'm sure you all noticed that the Collings varnish model doesn't have a pickguard, which could put some serious marks on the top by players who make contact with the top of the mando with their picks?
Good thing for me I never touch the top when I play! I don't even touch a pickguard when I play one that has one of those. But I do cringe when a player who has a big wear mark in the top of their mando asks: "Do you mind if I try your mandolin?" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[jasona]

That is one of the most detailed inlays I've ever seen. Stunning detail.

[Chris Baird]

The term varnish is used to describe a good number of different finishes; some not being a varnish at all. There are thousands of recipes and everyone has their own because no one gives theirs away. Basically a varnish is a drying oil usually with some kind of caytalist to speed drying. Sometimes shellac is used either whole or in part. Shellac is not a varnish but often is called such. Oil varnishes are softer than lacquer and some claim to enjoy a tonal advantage. I like varnish primarily for asthetic reasons. It really brings out the beauty in the wood.

[grsnovi]

Its hard to imagine the waste involved in laser cutting or high pressure water jet cutting the binding but if they do it once, they could just as easily do it three times to get the WBW - in fact it could be the same initial profile with different offsets.

I liked the headstock inlay on the Collings fancy F - it is quite elegant in its simplicity. This inlay while ornate, seems cold and clinical to me and knowing that there will be 1000 others EXACTLY like it somehow detracts from what was often a highly artistic piece of handcraft.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing in favor of imperfection - I think there is a world of difference (in fit and finish) between the Collings "plain" MF and the Gibson "plain" F9.

[HoGo]

Jim, I believe they CNC-cut a channel into the ivoroid binding and inlay the black line. They do this on the side bound models. You can see it in one of the Frank Fords 'Factory trips'.

[danb]

Here's that Frank Ford pictorial showing how they build things..

Collings Tour (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Features/2001Collings/2001collings01.html)

Here's one of Gibson Opry Mills! (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/FieldTrips/OpryMills/oprymills.html)

[Jim Hilburn]

HoGo, the grain of the ivoroid doesn't seem to continue into the thin inside white line. Or maybe the photo isn't detailed enough, but it looks like you would see that in the photo.
They may be actually binding the ebony with the .020" lines. Whatever they're doing, it looks mighty fine.

[jbrwky]

I was in Buffalo Bros. in Carlsbad last weekend. They have a Collings A5 that had birdseye maple on the back that blew me away. Great store, great people, and good selection.

[Scott Tichenor]

I don't bang the drum for any particular builder. I root for them all, and each has strengths and weaknesses that set them apart and make them attractive to some, and not attractive to others. I've likely played more Collings mandolins than anyone else on this board and my opinion from that experience is that each mandolin is fairly unique tonally and visually. To listen to some of the discussion you'd think they've invented some type of Willy Wonka cloning machine where wood, metal and strings are inserted in one end and a mandolin is magically produced on the other. Sorry, ain't so, and they don't necessarily produce perfection every time. They'd admit that as soon as anyone. I welcome everyone cherishing what they appreciate but have to admit I'm finding some of this chat bordering on petty sniping.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Here's that Frank Ford pictorial showing how they build things..

Collings Tour (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Features/2001Collings/2001collings01.html)

]
After looking over this photo tour of the Collings factory, I'd have to say there's a fair amount of hand work still done in building all their instruments. Near as I can tell, the only thing they do that is vastly different from any other large commercial builder, is they rely on CNC machinery a bit more, but the CNC machines don't exactly replace the skilled people who actually do the work.

In all fairness, I appreciate a lot of different builders, and what they have done, but I still gotta say Collings is one of the most meticulous builders out there, and I think it's pretty cool. Makes it a lot easier on the nerves to buy without trying it out first.

[Cactus Jack]

Well, it will be good to hear from any of you who have a chance, eventually, to compare a varnish model with a nitro finish. It appears this may take some time because the information I have is that Collings is just working on the second one now....

[mandoJeremy]

Exactly Scott!

[HoGo]

Jim, maybe they cut a channel into ebony for a thin white line (probably one piece CNC-cut, too) and then bound the peghead with the ivoroid. The black line is then ebony...

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Maybe they just draw it on with a Sharpie. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mandoJeremy]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Stephen Perry]

So, Chris, when Collings says "varnish" we have no idea what that means? I make varnish all the time. The characteristics are so wide. I can have thin and hard, thick and hard, or thin and soft or thick and soft in oil or solvent varnish. I can use turpentine, alcohol, or acetone for a solvent varnish. Wonder if Collings would tell me what they are using? I didn't think to ask. I worry about alcohol soluable varnishes on things. I don't use them on student level instruments.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I'm not sure whether the exact formula for the varnish is all that important, since Collings makes a mighty good sounding mandolin with a lacquer finish. In addition, even though I know the varnish has some effect on the sound of the instrument, I think the majority of what it will sound like is predetermined in the build.

Every time I'm playing golf, and I hit a long drive, someone will invariably ask, "What kind of driver are you using?" It's like Lee Trevino said: "It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian!"

[Stephen Perry]

That's pretty much been my opinion, so long as the material is used appropriately. I can use a very thin varnish that is fairly hard, or a thicker layer of soft varnish. Actually, I generally use a more-resistant finish right over the ground, then increasing soft layers upwards!

I'm just curious about what production shops use. They have big resources and may be onto something I want to copy!

Steve

[Keith Newell]

Jim, the black stripe would be easy. #You can get end mills (cutters) down to about .oo5 of an inch in diameter, so a .025 black stripe would be easy. They only need to machine a very shallow slot to accept a strip of black binding, they could glue it in and scrape it flush. Seems to me if they machines the bindy from a solid sheet they could also cut the shallow groove for the black strip and have it perfectly placed.
#The previous link to the tour shows a bunch of their machining processes and how they can make something that looks like its made from several peices out of one big piece and glue in small fake strips of binding or wood.
This is in no way ragging on Collins but they do go out of the way to make something look handmade that really is not and is knocked off one after another identical to each other. I speak from experience because I've been in the industry for 25 years and know a lot about manufacturing processes. I kinda like the curl a wood chip makes and the feel as I push a gouge through a red spruce top, or the feel of a scraper on the neck of my maple neck, the high tech is cool but just not as satisfying.
#Keith Newell
http://www.newellmandolins.com

[mandoJeremy]

Hey Keith, I clicked on your website and I love your street address! That rocks! THE song to learn and that whole era just rips!

[Bradley]

[QUOTE]I kinda like the curl a wood chip makes and the feel as I push a gouge through a red spruce top, or the feel of a scraper on the neck of my maple neck, the high tech is cool but just not as satisfying.

Keith,you just keep on enjoying that feeling of being a Craftsman !!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I kinda like the curl a wood chip makes and the feel as I push a gouge through a red spruce top. . .
Me, too. Oops, pushed too hard! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif



Image borrowed from F-5 Journal

[mandopete]

Wow! #That's what I would call a distressed model!

[Cactus Jack]

Could that be Willie Nelson's mandolin?

[mandopete]

Well, I wouldn't pay a penny over $1M, even if it is a distressed Loar!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Hey is anyone hearing a tonal difference in these varnish collings f models compared to other first models?

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Could that be Willie Nelson's mandolin?
It could be, if he wants to pay James Monroe the million+ bucks he wants for it.

As to the tonal differences, I don't know that there are many of these out there yet. The production just started up on this model and the only one I know of is the one that was at the NAMM show.

When mine gets here, you can be assured I'll share photos and a review on it. I even have a MF-5 to compare it with. Can't wait.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Hey is anyone hearing a tonal difference in these varnish collings f models compared to other first models?
I thought I read somewhere that they sound just like a Collings, but older. Whatever that means.