Scots mandolin book

[Dagger Gordon]

I've been asked to do a Scots mandolin book, by Taigh Na Teud - music publishers from the Isle of Skye who have already put out a lot of great books.

Now, I've got lots of ideas how to do it, but I would like to know what people think is most needed. Do you just want a bunch of good Scots tunes done in tab? Do you want to get your head round how to incorporate more chordal ideas in your melody playing? Do you want some detail on history, technique, whatever?

I'd be pleased to know what people think there is a need for.

Dagger

[mikeyes]

Dagger,

If you are going to do tab, could you do tab and notation, perhaps with chord suggestions for double stops, etc.?

One of the things that made Enda Scahill's banjo tutor so good was basic and intermediate technique that was integrated into the tunes.

Good Luck on the endeavo(u)r

[R. Kane]

I enjoy reading the background story of the tune and the author. Technique, such as ornamentation, always useful. Second the point about accompaniment/double stops. For those that learn best by ear, I suggest putting once-through-the-tune recordings of each of the tunes on your website. It will drive people to the site, and they'll buy your CDs and look at your concert schedule.

[John Flynn]

Dagger:

I really like your CDs, so I hope you pick tunes that are on them. That would really get me interested in the book.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Please include notation. And Yes, incorporating chordal ideas sounds great. History and background are a must. Having a cross-reference of CD's or MP3's for the tunes would be immense value. And throwing in a few harmonies wouldn't hurt...

[Bertram Henze]

I second what the others said about notation and double stops.

Plus, a word about how to adapt notation found elsewhere (e.g. on thesession.org) for the mandolin to avoid frustration over other instruments' ornamentation (in other words: what is allowed to be changed?)
Plus, an introduction into modal scales and how they confusingly map to the concepts of major and minor chord accompaniment in the minds of so many accompanists.

Bertram

[billkilpatrick]

a successful formula is the one used by allan alexander for his mandolin series - tab and notation.

http://www.mandolinandguitar.com/renaissance_mandolin.html

... it's not his formula - it's just the one he used: very simple tunes; very simple arrangements. when i started adding my own embellishments, i felt just like a reeealll musician ...

considering scotland's musical tradition and - i'd guess - universal appreciation for its history, some background information on these tunes would be a real plus. a section devoted to early, mandolin-related instruments (citole, cittern, mandore, gittern ...) and related historically documented, alternate tunings would be appreciated as well.

sounds exciting - buon lavoro! - bill*

[Steve L]

Dagger, is this going to be a beginners book or an approach to Scottish music for folks who can already play?

Some notes on technique in regards to ornamentation, a discussion of regional styles as well as the discussing and illustrating the difference between formal tune collections by composers like Skinner and Gow vs more trad/session type tunes done in sets as you'd play them in pubs. Ways to approach airs and pipe tunes.

Notes + tab is probably the way to go to maximize the appeal.

The most important element to me would be an accompanying CD to be able to hear the feel of the tunes. A 6/8 march or a strathspey are hard to interpret off a printed page if you don't already know how to play it.

Just some random thoughts. I know you'll do a great job.

[kmmando]

Rather you than me Dagger!! Sounds like you've also got the basis for a PhD thesis here! Arise Dr Dagger!!!:)

Good on you, I look forward to seeing it in time.

trust all goes well in Easter Ross

Kevin

[steve V. johnson]

I'll second Bertram's suggestions and request audio (cd? online extras, audio, video? downloads? kindle version?) to go with the book.

Thanks!

stv

[Vigee]

Dagger,

This is great news. I look forward to purchasing your book. I've been using Traditional Scottish Fiddle, which has an extensive repertoire and offers a lot to style advice ... for fiddlers. The tunes themselves are quite good, and the transcriptions generally spot on. I love that it divides its attention to basic techniques and regional styles. My greatest frustration (if knowing that would help you) is that some tunes--slow strasthpeys, in particular--tend to sound thin when played on mandolin. I hope that you could pick tunes that are more appropriate for mando or, if possible, offer or discuss harmonic arrangements of tunes.

I would also appreciate attention to ornamentation and picking. Already several posters have asked for more on what ornaments should be applied to mando. I would also like to know how bowing techniques ought to translate. How does one imitate the "up-drive bow", for instance.

Finally, I think some tunes, especially in flat keys, work well in position, and I think that tabs ought shift up the board.

Thanks.

[Jim MacDaniel]

I'll echo the suggestions for tips on ornamentation, as well as for some sort of audio accompaniment. It would also be nice if it took on the form of something like Paul Kelly's "100 Tunes for Irish Mandolin" by Waltons.ie -- but in the case of Kelly's, I wish he employed more ornamentation than he did on his companion CD. (Although perhaps he may have intentionally kept the arrangements more simple in order to make them more accessible, and/or to leave it up to the mandolinist to personalize them with ornamentation from their own skills repertoire.)

[mandozilla]

Dagger Gordon said;


Do you just want a bunch of good Scots tunes done in tab? Do you want to get your head round how to incorporate more chordal ideas in your melody playing? Do you want some detail on history, technique, whatever?

Yes! Yes! & Yes! :))

Man, there's a lot of great suggesions here.:grin:

:mandosmiley:

[Adam Tracksler]

dagger, you may want to check out David Surette's Green Mandolin. Most of that is Irish/New England, but we did the tabs together, and he was telling me that his tabs are the "nugget" (my word, not his..)of the song and that they were meant to be embellished as the player felt. You may want to check it out.

[Dagger Gordon]

Thanks a lot, guys. Some helpful things there.

First, I don't think this is going to be primarily aimed at the advanced player. Some people who I teach can already play either fiddle or guitar, but are new to the mandolin. I find both of these groups are interested in double stops, chordal ideas and things like that. That is something I use a lot in my own playing, so that is definitely something I will be looking at.

There will probably be a bit at the beginning with some simple Scots tunes, such as Mhairi's Wedding.

I will obviously include the different types of tunes - ie jigs, reels, strathspeys, marches, but would like to spend more time than usual talking about playing in different keys.
Thus we might have a bit on G, A, Am, Em, Bm, D, maybe Dm and F, and look at tunes in those keys and what chordal ideas can EASILY be incorporated into the playing - often by simply adding an open string.

Vigee. I don't know how much I'll manage to explore the flat keys. Maybe there's scope for a Vol 2 for more advanced players some other time. I would hope that people could use techniques I teach in the simpler keys when they play in the flats. F and Dm are good keys to get started on that stuff.

It will not contain hundreds of tunes. For that, I would recommend some of Taigh Na Teud's other publications. It will probably have around 20 -30 tunes, but will look at those in some detail.

The current thinking is to have 3 versions of each tune. These would be straightforward melody notation, simple tab and a version which showed the melody notes in bold print but included extra notes in a different print -either a smaller size or perhaps a different colour. This would also show suggested chords, which would partially be included in the arrangement.

An example might be if you play a D note on the second string. Rather than only play that single melody note, you might also play the open third string (which is something I do a lot) to fill the sound out, which of course is also D. The higher note would be in bold print, but the lower note (which is really an add-on) would be in a different print. That's the idea, anyway.

Hey Kevin, I'm not sure I'm ready to be Sir Dagger quite yet! I don't think it's sensible to try to do too much in one book.

Does that make sense?

Cheers,

Dagger

[Jim MacDaniel]

Sounds great to me Dagger -- I'll be awaiting its publication with bated breath.

BTW, will you also cover playing with a 10-string mandolin -- or a 9-string in your case ;) -- or will that be your next project? :grin:

[Dagger Gordon]

Actually, I have reverted to ten strings. I did go through a spell trying only nine (one bass D) as I thought it might work better through my pick-up. Not sure it made much difference really.

I will be dealing with only 8 strings. Plenty to work with there, and the extra bass strings can confuse people.

I think there will be an accompanying CD, and people can go online to watch how I do it.

Cheers,

Dagger

[Adam Tracksler]

I know this is a little off topic, but its tangential.....is there anywhere to see/hear some scots tunes/songs? I was playing with someone a while a go who had a ton of scottish songs, and I liked them so much more than the Irish ones I have heard...

Thanks in advance..

[Dagger Gordon]

Hi Adam,

Indeed there is. Try Footstompin', which has a very lively forum not unlike this.
It also has a Podcast section where you will hear a good cross section of Scots music.

[kmmando]

Adam, there are 6 short videos on youtube that you could look at, of the mandolin concert at Celtic Connections. The usual handheld standard filming, but lively enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO7x6QhNT44

regards
Kevin Macleod

[Bernie Daniel]

These are ALL great ideas. Here you have one customer for sure!

One thought might be to include a few tunes that are typical of the various regions like Border Fiddle tunes?

Thoughts on getting the Scottish fiddle effect (e.g., cuts) on the mandolin and how to choose your ornamentations?

Perhaps you could include a few more tunes if you limited the number of noted formats -- I know I would be happy with the notation/tab and chords all on the same sheet (rather than three separate ones?).

I echo the thought of others -- many times I see players better than me cleverly sticking in a double stop for a chord -- much easier and sounds great too. Ideas on how to make those decisions would sure help me.

I look forward to your text!

[Jill McAuley]

Kevin,
Thanks for posting the youtube link for the Celtic Connections stuff - brilliant altogether sir!

Cheers,
Jill

[Randi Gormley]

History, comment and accompanying chords (so i can play with my-husband-the-guitar-player), and standard notation would be appreciated. And some diagrams for hand and pick position, possibly in the intro, for people who pick up the book as a first-ever without any background or other experience. And of course some nice clip art to fill up the spaces, break up the tunes and make the book look user-friendly!

[kmmando]

Thanks Jill - we had a lot of fun that night.

all the best from Edinburgh
kevin

Scayles, Dagger, best shop in town by far, but still not a huge selection. Great guys there running it.

[Mandophyte]

Dagger,

How long will we have to wait? Is there a (nominal) date for publication?

John

[Chris Keth]

This sounds like it'll be an awesome book Dagger. I'm just starting to play (literally started working on my first tune, "Hector the Hero" today) and I've been listening to some of your work I found on Aiden Crossey's site. Absolutely beautiful!

[Dagger Gordon]

Thanks guys,

It'll be maybe a year. I haven't really started it yet, and right now (5 am) I'm busy lambing sheep. Just having a cup of tea before daylight in fact.

Cheers,

Dagger

[Marc Berman]

Dagger,

Our friend's parents have a Croft is in Brora. They're probably busy lambing too.
Do you know James Alexander from Fochabers? My daughter's fiddle group toured Scotland two years ago and Fochabers was their first stop.

[Dagger Gordon]

I'm not far from Brora.

I've never met James but am certainly aware of him running a very successful young fiddle group in Fochabers, which is not a big town. We have two similar young fiddle groups in my area - namely the Kiltearn Fiddlers and The Gizzen Briggs. You always find there is a driving force like James behind such groups. In Kiltearn's case it is Alpha Munro and in Gizzen Briggs it is Debbie Ross.

Indeed, Scots fiddle music owes much to Shetland's Forty Fiddlers from Tom Anderson's time.

[EdSherry]

Dagger -- if you're still soliciting suggestions for material to be included in the book, I'd recommend a discussion of how to implement tune ornamentation on mandolin, and how it differs (if you think it does) from ornamentation on other instruments.

In my experience with ITM, the common "triplet" ornamentation on tenor banjo and mandolin differs from the rolls common on other instruments (fiddle, flute, whistle).

[Dagger Gordon]

Hi Ed,

Could you describe more fully how - in your view- the triplet ornamentation differs from other instruments?

Also do you see the techniques used on tenor banjo and mandolin as being more or less the same?

Personally I find the use of triplets on the banjo can be a bit overdone. I also think the mandolin is better for double stops and partial chords.

There was an interesting thread a few weeks ago about whether sustain is a good or bad thing. I was surprised to realise that bluegrass players often want a note to die away quite quickly, which is really not what I want at all. My Sobell mandolin, for instance, has got tremendous sustain. Oval holes tend to have more sustain, which is perhaps partly why they are popular with Celtic players.

I would like to explore this question more fully. It seems to me that ringing strings is part of the sound of Celtic music. We can see this in the extensive use of open tunings and capos in guitars, citterns etc, and I would say sustain is part of this. I actually quite like my mandolin to sound like a harp, and I'm really not much interested in closed chop chords at all.

I think it is important to remember that we don't have a dominant single influence in the Celtic mandolin world like Bill Monroe is to bluegrass. To some extent that means that anything goes - we are picking up ideas from other instruments like pipes, fiddle, guitar etc. I'm not sure that I see the ITM banjo influence as necessarily always fitting Scottish music on the mandolin.

[Bertram Henze]

Personally I find the use of triplets on the banjo can be a bit overdone. I also think the mandolin is better for double stops and partial chords.

I second that. It is especially true for OM and other larger instruments of the mandolin family. While the banjo has to triplet and tremolo all the time to keep the tone running and avoid awkward silence (just listen to what Darren Maloney (http://www.darrenmaloney.com/) does), mandolin type instruments have sustain which wants to be left singing.

Having been a banjo player for years previously, my whole relationship with my OM dramatically changed for the better after I stopped trying to play it like a banjo.

Bertram

[EdSherry]

Dagger -- I agree with you that triplets on a tenor banjo can be (and often are) overdone.

As I see it, the triplet on a banjo/mandolin is often used where a player on another instrument (e.g., fiddle or flute) would play a (short or long) roll. Check out the chart showing how "the same" ornamentation differs from instrument to instrument in Brendan Breathnach's Ceol Rince na hEireann.

When playing mandolin (and OM, and 'dola, and 'cello) as an accompanying instrument, I play a lot of double stops and counter-melody lines.

As for whether tenor banjo and mandolin techniques are the same, there clearly is a sense in which the fundamentals are very similar (e.g., alternating picking for reels, DUD DUD for jigs), but I've noticed the following differences:

(a) most tenor players I know tend to play with a very light pick (in part because it makes triplets easier to play), whereas in my experience such picks don't work well for mandolin;

(b) I agree with Bertram that, because tenor banjos have little/no sustain, whereas mandolins and (especially) OMs do, the playing style I prefer is different across the instruments; to me, the difference is clearest with regard to accompaniment (especially of singing) and least clear with respect to fast instrumentals.

(c) to my ears, tremolo on a banjo sounds strange, while on mandolin it sounds fine.

I fully agree that there aren't a lot of established role models for mandolin in Scottish (and Irish) music, and certainly no dominant one.

[Dagger Gordon]

Thanks for that, Ed. Some good points. I must have a look at Breathnach's stuff. I've got one book somewhere.

I recently got Simon Mayor's 'New Celtic Mandolin' book recently but haven't checked it out in much detail. He has a page (5) where he talks about decoration, mainly to show how he writes it out in the music.
He lists different techniques in the following order:
Pull-offs, hammer-ons, slides (both up and down), grace notes, a roll (for which he seems to suggest a combination of hammer-ons and pull-offs, and finally triplets - where he suggests 'where to do it is a matter personal style and preference' .

I take from this that he gets his decoration and ornamentation as much from his left hand as his right (if you're right-handed of course), and triplets are relatively unimportant to him.

He is also careful to say these are his 'suggestions', and notes 'nothing in this book is meant to be prescriptive, it's against the very nature of traditional music'.

I rather share that view, and would hesitate to definitively say this is how to play Scottish music on the mandolin.

I started on guitar, as I'm sure a lot of us did. I had developed techniques like hammer-ons long before I started playing mandolin, or indeed banjo. Recently one of my sons has discovered my old record of 'McGlynn's Fancy' by Arty McGlynn. It is an album of Irish tunes played on acoustic guitar, if you don't know it. I hadn't listened to it for ages, but it is instructive to hear how he uses guitar techniques on his left hand to great effect. In particular he is good at holding a note for a long time, sometimes bending it a bit. He doesn't usually attempt to play triplets when he does this, and I think it would spoil the effect. A lot of his ornamentaion comes from hammer-ons and pull-offs.

[Tosh Marshall]

Glad to see the book out at last Dagger.....
http://www.scotlandsmusic.com/

[Dagger Gordon]

Yes, I'm very happy to say that my book is now available. I think I'm quite pleased with it.
Thanks for your support up to now, and I hope people will find it useful.

Cheers

Dagger

http://www.scotlandsmusic.com/default.aspx?LocID=06d00w00100a&Lang=EN&OriginalURL=http%3a%2f%2ftnt.ShopKit.net%2fasp%2fP roductPage.asp.ShopID-269.area-.category-Guitar.ParentID-1453.ProductCode-9781906804039.pic-2.htm

[Jim MacDaniel]

Wow -- it's hard to believe its been almost a year since we last touched this thread; it seems more recent in my memory than that.

Regardless, congrats on its publication, Dagger, and I just added this to the top of my shopping list.

[rgray]

Just ordered and now I am eagerly awaiting delivery.

[AlanS]

I have just received my copy. Congratulations to Dagger on an excellent production!

The choice of tunes is great, particularly the marches and strathspeys which are such a feature of Scottish music and which sit well on the mandolin, as so ably demonstrated by Dagger, Kevin et al. There is so much more than just jigs and reels!

The book is perhaps not for complete beginners but would be well suited to those working with a teacher. The introduction of partial chords and ornamentation is very well considered and adds a lot to the bare bones of standard fiddle notation.

A minor problem is that the tunes on the CD, tracks 9 through 11 appear to be out of order. This in no way however detracts from a very valuable and high quality publication.


Alan

[M.Marmot]

Wow, that was a bit of a trip!

It was my first time reading through this thread and it was a bit like time-lapse experience, conception, gestation, birth, all in the space of fifteen minutes :disbelief:

Congratulations Mr. Gordon, if even half the subjects and suggestions touched on here made it into your book its sure to be a cracker.:mandosmiley:

[Perry]

Just ordered my copy. Looking forward to it!

p.s. the aforementioned Simon Mayor's "New Celtic Mandolin" is a fine book as well.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Just order mine too!

[Dagger Gordon]

Thanks guys.

Dagger

[JeffD]

Wow, I can hardly wait.

I will be ordering soon.