Supporting You Local Luthier

[Chuck Naill]

On another thread asking for advice John Hamlett (Sunburst) said, "My real opinion, admittedly biased, step up from a manufactured instrument and support your local luthier!"

This is a mandolin specialty site with experts and experiance galore abounding. I read a lot of threads seeking advice about branded instruments and was wondering why more potential players decide not to seek out the local luthier or one person operation for a reason or perception of some sort that may not be correct.

Is it the waiting time? The perception of higher price? The fear that it will not be what you want after completion. You are concerned about resale or trade in value? Playing a brand gives you more confidence. Does peer pressure enter the equation? Are you bothered that the instrument might not look perfect as the branded one do.

I would really like to hear from potential buyers with either a little or a lot of experiance dealing in instruments. You perceptions do not have to be correct, just want you think.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm into instant gratification. I don't wait well for things.

[Rod_Neep]

I think that this is a hard one to quantify!

"The fear that it will not be what you want after completion."

Very much so. I think that this is down to one word. "Consistency". The brand named instruments are pretty consistent, whereas those from the smaller (even big name) luthiers are not necessarily so. Advice often given is to play before you buy, and that is not always possible even with a brand name instrument, but with a custom order from a small luthier then it is impossible of course.

There is a "security" in buying a brand name. Even if one wants a "custom", then there is still the security of "consistency" by having a bespoke instrument from a brand name. For example, I felt very confident in ordering two "customs" from Weber, and I passed over what is probably an excellent mandolin from a well known small luthier.

"Are you bothered that the instrument might not look perfect as the branded one do."

Yes, this one too. I do have four custom instruments from small luthiers. They sound great! Isn't that what it is all about I hear you ask? Well, yes, but the four customs that I have from branded makers (in this case Martin, two guitars and two ukes) not only sound great but are fabulously finished, superbly built, and immaculate. Moreso than those from the smaller luthiers.

A custom instrument from a branded name manufacturer will often be more expensive than one from a respected one-man luthier though, and that is something to be taken into consideration of course.

Rod

[Tim2723]

I thnk a lot depends on why someone sees a 'luthier made' instrument as inherently better.

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually in thinking about it, I'm assuming my Gibson and Flatiron were made by Luthiers, maybe Independent Luthiers might be a better description.

[Timbofood]

I understand both sides of this one, at least, in theory. I have only been able to afford "production" instruments my whole musical life and must admit, they have served me well enough. If I had the luxury of (or self dicipline to save) sufficient funds to ascend to the ranks of a "premium" piece, I have stated who I would make the deal with. That allegiance comes from a personal knowledge of the Luthier spanning more than half my life. Had I no knowledge of him, I would be hard pressed to decide based on the astounding amount of "eye candy" available from this forum. That being said, there are several Luthiers within driving range for someone around here to be able to do some serious research.
Given the funds necessary to "step up," I would have no trouble in justifying a trip to Maine, North Carolina, or Minneapolis for that matter to meet with someone that will be the builder of an instrument that I would fully expect to pass along to grandchildren. If the perspective of the longevity of an instrument's "working life" is taken into consideration, the short time to seek out and find a Luthier that will have the ability and appreciation to make the heirloom is short indeed.

[boatman]

I have commissioned several instruments from my local luthier, John Hamlett, aka "Sunburst". Other than being able to view the building process and having more choices in the selection of appointments, it was, for me, mostly an emotional decision. I just like the idea of doing business with a local craftsman. That being said, I don't believe that I could have have purchased comparable instruments from a "factory" builder for fewer $. It is possible that the "Martin" label on a guitar, or "Gibson" on a mandolin would translate to a better resale value should I sell; that was not a compelling consideration for me.

[desaljs]

I have all the concerns mentioned in the first post. But....I decided, after reading some posts here, to dip my toe into the water and try an instrument built by an individual luthier. Ken Ratcliff, of Silverangel fame, is building me his "economy" A style. Not a big leap, and not an "economy" instrument at all.

It will be done in the not too distant future. It will not have too much flash, and it has been fun receiving photos from Ken showing the instrument come to life. A European spruce top, flamed maple back and sides, F holes, Grover tuners, and upgraded tail piece, with case and shipping, all for about $1500.00.

I am excited about it.

I have done this with an acoustic guitar, started late in 2006. I have yet to see the guitar. So, there can be some downside, but I knew going in on the guitar, that it would take time. I am doing my part to help the individual builders out there!

[Adam Tracksler]

Owning one of John's fine machines is a pleasure indeed. It's nice to have an instrument that is EXACTLY what you want. I wanted an Oval F that worked well for BG and OT and that's what I have. I really haven't come across an instrument that I'd trade it for. I tried building one, and its thin and tinny, where mine is round and full and woody. I should have spent the time building practicing,a nd that's what I've been doing.

My brother in-law is a bassist and has 2 custom built basses, now he spent about as much as he would have for a higher end production bass, but then again, he got exactly what he wanted, exactly fitting him and how he plays. If you have the means or opportunity, you probably wont regret it, plus there are builders building on just about every level of financial outlay.

[Chuck Naill]

Actually in thinking about it, I'm assuming my Gibson and Flatiron were made by Luthiers, maybe Independent Luthiers might be a better description.

Do you live in Nashville, Mike? I said local builders.:grin:, but "independent" works.

My instruments are made from local builders within a 70 miles radius, including John Arnold, Charles J. Horner, and Noel Booth. Mike Ramsey is a little farther away.

[JEStanek]

I feel pretty stongly about supporting independent builders. I think part of the challenge is timing for people. For one of my two custom builds (from a younger builder) had a one year wait time. The other custom build, my builder worked me in as I was coming to Australia to pick it up, was done in a few months. Even a few months seems to be too long of a wait for some of our MAS-addicts. Another issue is people are looking for a specific sound and if they like the Gibson or X sound that's best made by Gibson or X. Why would an independent builder make their living trying to sound like current instruments made by X Their builds are made to sound like their sound that develops as they learn more of their craft. Also, there aren't as many instruments floating around by independent builder for people to try more than one or two by someone.

I've been fortunate in that I was able to define the sound I wanted from my Labraid and Brian got it, I had seen some of his work in hand. Similarly, I was able to see 2 examples of Jack Spira's work and really liked the feel and sound of his instruments. Each instrument required a great deal of trust on my part in the builder to do his job well. It required me to give up a certain ammount of control over things, even with a good deal of discussion in how I wanted some things to look and feel. If you can't give up that kind of control to someone else on something like a mandolin your contracting a build on, this process may not be for you.

I also like that I can see that these two instruments were hand built. I like the little imperfections and subtleties their hands brought to these instruments. I don't mean the fit and finish isn't great. I harbor no ill feeling towards Gibson, Breedlove, Weber, or Collings or the other "production" builders. I believe they make great instruments that folks rightly love. I also like supporting smaller bands than national acts at concerts. I like buying the artist's CDs at shows more than via Amazon. I don't think anyone is right or wrong not to go one way or another but I do hope people consider choosing some of the independent builders when considering a new instrument. It's these guys, IMO, that really push the design evolution or really nail the vintage look, feel and tone in an expert and passionate way.

Jamie
EDIT: Neither of my builds were local. One in Canada the other in South East Australia!

[Mandobar]

i've bought and sold a lot of mandolins as well as guitars. i have to say my luthier built experiences have been mixed, all overshadowed by the WONDERFUL results i have had buying and dealing with Hans Brentrup. i own both luthier as well as a lot of Collings mandolins- some of these were made specifically for me by the small group of mando builders they have there. that said i own a really fine collection of mandolins.

i have recently purchased a mandola from Ron Cole, who is a gracious individual who does not get a lot of notice here on the board. if the instrument sounds as good as it looks, this could be the start of a really nice relationship with one of the nicest people you'd want to talk to. just waiting patiently for UPS now.........darn this weather!

[desaljs]

Jamie makes some great points. As Ken and I talked, he was trying to understand what I was looking for in terms of tone. To be honest, I could not answer that question. Some here can. What I asked Ken to do was build the instrument the way he builds. My ears will adapt to the tone he creates. Maybe I am not that fussy. I wanted Ken to build using his skill and judgement. I have trust in him!

[Spencer]

I have had different experience than Rod_Neep regarding consistency. When I replaced my factory built mandolin, I visited several independent luthiers, and found that they generally had good consistency. That is, there was a larger variation in sound from maker to maker than within the instruments of a given maker. I think they have a concept, and a sound they want, and they know how to get it. In my experience, I have found a less consistent tone for the larger producers. I just don't think consistency is a valid reason not to go to an independent luthier.

Spencer

[MikeEdgerton]

Do you live in Nashville, Mike? I said local builders.:grin:, but "independent" works.

My instruments are made from local builders within a 70 miles radius, including John Arnold, Charles J. Horner, and Noel Booth. Mike Ramsey is a little farther away.

And if we don't have one of those? Is Minnesotta local to New Jersey? Please say it is. :)

[Mandobar]

mike, as far as i am concerned it is..........i still maintain my house there and there is a Brentrup 23v upstairs in my bedroom closet.

[Keith Erickson]

There are reasons why we purchase what we purchase. Local or out of town. Manufactured? Independent?

Regardless of our reasons on how we purchase our mandolins, we should be glad that we have so many options as pickers.

How many "local" luthiers are out on the web?
How many of us have made orders in other parts of the country/ world?

The fact is, most of us are lucky to make those types of decisions.

Personally, I believe I am lucky to have found a local guitar luthier to convert my 12 string into a mandocello as I am to have found a "local" luthier in another part of the US to build my new A model mandolin. I am also greatful to MK for putting out a great A+ plus model.

Maybe I'm not connecting with the OP subject. And I do apologize if this is the case.

[Chuck Naill]

Maybe I'm not connecting with the OP subject. And I do apologize if this is the case.
__________________

You're fine, Keith.

[MikeEdgerton]

mike, as far as i am concerned it is..........i still maintain my house there and there is a Brentrup 23v upstairs in my bedroom closet.

Ok, good.

[JGWoods]

Why I don't buy from independent makers-

I'll only buy if I can play it first.

I don't want to wait more than 3-4 months to get what I want.

I want a lifetime warranty, my lifetime, not the builders career until he retires lifetime ( although that is not a big reason).

Resale value is more variable than "factory" made instruments.

I might be a snob- I only own Gibson, Martin and Guild instruments right now.

I think the major builders- Gibson, Collings and Weber to name 3- have sure fire solid construction. I am not so sure that independent builders might not make things too lightly in the name of great sound, and later the instrument doesn't hold up.

Mostly it is my determination to play it before I buy it. I might buy someone's fairly symetrical 2 point f hole that is already made with a 1 3/16 neck, nicely equipped...and cheaper than the Weber Bighorn. Is that out there?

[Chuck Naill]

Why I don't buy from independent makers-

I'll only buy if I can play it first.

I don't want to wait more than 3-4 months to get what I want.

I want a lifetime warranty, my lifetime, not the builders career until he retires lifetime ( although that is not a big reason).

Resale value is more variable than "factory" made instruments.

I might be a snob- I only own Gibson, Martin and Guild instruments right now.

I think you represent what most consumers think. Thank you for your reply.

I used to be a big Martin fan until I found out that what they said were replicas were not even close. I still like their products, but only the ones made before 1939.:grin::grin: Actually I have a couple that I have had modified that are outstanding. ;)

A warrantee was never an buying benefit for me because I have seen warrantee work from the factory and have not been impressed.

If I were interested in an independent builder, I know I would be able to find out quickly what quality they aspired to. Its like getting a house built. Once you see the contractors work and get to know them, you can better predict the outcome.

[Jill McAuley]

Right now the two considerations for me would be finance and to a lesser extent, the wait. One day a hope to get a custom build mandolin though, and my wish list would be:

-Poe oval hole A style
-Old Wave oval hole A style
-Labraid A style

Cheers,
Jill

[sunburst]

Its like getting a house built. Once you see the contractors work and get to know them, you can better predict the outcome.

...or you can get manufactured housing and get a consistent product, not have to wait, and pay less.
By the way, manufactured housing can be of high quality just as manufactured instruments can, but it seems to me there is a different connotation that I don't fully understand.

My post that seems to have become the inspiration for this thread was mostly me advocating for independent builders everywhere. There is no shortage of advocates for various brands of manufactured instruments, and I feel like it is my duty, more or less, to advocate for individual builders whenever the chance presents itself.

As I see it, the main reasons folks choose "brands" over instruments made by individuals are these:
-Instand gratification. People are used to making a decision and then going to the store and buying it, or going to the store and shopping for it to make the dicision, so some people aren't prepared to make a decision then have to wait for it.
-Convenience. Retail stores and on-line retailers are the most convenient way to buy, and they mostly carry manufactured lines of instruments.
-Name recognition. Lots of folks know and trust the names of major manufacturers.
-Peer pressure. When your dad and grandfather both played XXY brand instruments, and that is what you've aspired to all your life, when you ask friends and musicians what is the best and you're told XXY over and over, when the advertising dollars of XXY place their ads in your favorite publications, when you see your favorite musicians playing and endorsing XXY, you're probably going to get an XXY if you can, and might not be inclined to consider an independent builder as an alternative.
-Perceived value. A well known name is important to lots of people because there is perception of value associated with the name.

As for consistency, I can see (through my repair business) that some of the smaller manufacturers can build with consistency approaching that of the better hand builders, but if it is consistency that one is looking for, that is to be found among the better individual builders, not in the large manufacturers. There are several reasons for that, but I've been through those before so I won't lengthen this already lengthy post here to go over that ground again.

Bottom line;
We buy what we buy for our own individual reasons - reasons as individual as we all are. There are good manufactured instruments and there are...other manufactured instruments. The same can be said for individually made instruments. My personal opinion is that we should all consider individual makers when making a purchase regardless of what instrument we end up with, but as I said in the post that started this thread, that opinion is admittedly biased. :)

[allenhopkins]

Why I don't buy from independent makers-
I'll only buy if I can play it first.

That's my position, basically. I own a Sobell, e.g., but I bought it used after Martin Simpson traded it to a dealer here in Rochester. I have a '40 Martin 00-28G conversion to a 00-42 by an independent luthier, but it was completed and hanging on Stutzman's wall when I saw it.

If I'm going to lay out several thousand dollars for an instrument, I want to be sure ahead of time that it's what I want. This limits what options I'm likely to have. I see independent luthier products for sale here in the Cafe classifieds, but my normal buying practice is to go to a dealer and play what he/she has available, rather than ordering something from a distance, even with an approval period.

Resale value's not a big concern of mine, mainly because I never seem to get rid of anything! There are excellent luthiers in my area -- Bernie Lehmann, Kevin Mathers and Eric Aceto for example* -- but I would only be likely to buy one of their completed instruments, rather than commissioning one of them to build me one.

Limits my options, I know, but for some reason I much prefer the "bird in the hand."

*realized later I was neglecting excellent dulcimer builders Duane Wilder and Nils Casperson.

[Mandobar]

Its like getting a house built. Once you see the contractors work and get to know them, you can better predict the outcome.

having been married to a contractor, i'd have to disagree.........at least from the spousal point of view.........

[Steve Perry]

I'm not sure where I stand here?.... As far as local luthiers, Gibson is 2 hours SW of me... Ken Radcliff (Silver Angel) is 2 hours NE of me... I bought my mandolin (that I played before I bought) from an independant luthier in Japan (Sumi) from a store (FQMS) 40 minutes away from my house.

I'm soooo confused!:confused::grin:

[Frank Russell]

I've ridden both sides of this fence, and I think it's pretty relative. Like some others here, I don't have a "local luthier" in my part of SoCal. I had one, and I still have a beautiful little flattop with a carved back that he made, but he moved to Maine, so he's not available for "drop in visits." For a long time, I bought only name brands, or factory mandolins, because of a few imperfect small builders' instruments I had owned and was not satisfied with. I took a few chances on some more well-known "independent luthiers," like Old Wave Bill, Arches, Kettler, and BRW, and was pleased with the build quality, sound and looks of their instruments. Now there are definitely "small builders" whose work I would trust to be as consistent as Collings, Weber and Gibson. One of my personal favorites has always been R.L. Givens. Greg Boyd doesn't specialize in them just because he's quirky. I have yet to play a Givens mandolin that was a clunker. Matter of fact, seven or eight years and thirty something mandolins down the road from the start of my mandolin journey, the only instruments I own are "independent luthier" instruments. I've got the aforementioned flattop (technically, it might be a domra - it's got four strings), an Andrew Jerman solid body Les Paul Jr. electric mando, and a Givens A3 that I traded a Cafe member for. Without a local builder, or even a good store less than two hours drive away, I've done lots of my purchases/trades through the Classifieds here, and bought several mandolins sight unseen from Cafe sponsors. So far, I've been lucky. For me, if it feels good to my hands and sounds good to my ears, I could really care less whose name is on the headstock anymore. Perfection is no longer my goal in buying. Is my Givens perfect? No, there's a few flaws. Does it play like glass and sound like I want it to? Oh yeah. Frank

[Timbofood]

Good points each and every one of them! We each must, in the end, make our own decisions. What I choose may not be anothers cup of tea. I find this topic really interesting.
Mike, I would offer that Minnesota is not that far if you like a "long commute." My "Maine" connection is coming back to the "neighborhood" and I welcome him and spouse with pots of coffee or Mint Juleps depending on when they get setlled!

[man dough nollij]

Nobody is local to me. :( I suppose the closest would be Davy Stuart in Christchurch.

I think the "instant gratification" thing is interesting. I've been known to be quite impulsive, especially around spending too much money on things I don't need, but custom instruments are different. I'm on a couple of waiting lists now, and the waiting is part of the fun.

I'm on Bill's list for an Old Wave oval that I guess will be done late this year. I want a mesquite back and cedar top. I lived in Arizona for a long time, and those woods have a lot of meaning for me. I remember hiking through mesquite and catclaw, having to disentangle from their nasty stickers. I remember picking up logs of mesquite and marveling at how hard and dense it is. My favorite smell in the world is someone burning shagbark or aligator juniper in a woodstove. It's an intense, cedary smell. I'm hoping my OW has a little of that cedar smell.

Though Bill is not anywhere near a local luthier to me, his handywork has "Southwest" all over it, which has a lot of local connection for me.

I'm on a longer-term list for a Mowry. I have never seen nor handled one of his instruments-- just looked at pictures. I have a sense from looking at his work that it will be what I'm looking for. The finish and inlay look great, and I've heard a lot of good things about the tone of his mandolins. There's a two-point lefty at Greg Boyd's that's close to what I'm imagining.

In the meantime, I'm so impressed with the tone and playability of my new bottom-of-the-line Eastman that there's no big hurry to get anything different.

Just got to keep playing, so I am closer to worthy of those great custom instruments when the big brown truck appears.

~:>:mandosmiley:~:>

[barney 59]

I prefer things that show the craftsmans hand. The slight imperfections that you may find give it character-I think. In a production setting you have specialists and dedicated machinery doing the work. Someone is the neckman,someone does finishes etc.and if they can figure out how to automate a process they eliminate the person that would be doing that.I don't know for sure but I would be surprised to find out that in any production shop one builder does one instrument start to finish. I would think that most independent craftsmen have somethings that they are better at than others. I personally find that if I'm working with wood I'm good to go but find finishing for example a little daunting. You can also see that in most handmade instruments but you also see the love and care and attention that was put into it. One of the main things that I think distinguishes the craftman made item from a production shop item is the risk factor. The possibilty of failure is always there in a one off handmade instrument. A good craftsman will not let it out of his shop if it doesn't meet his standards and it can be a real hardship for him financially. His time is gone and he can't get it back -so a craftman will be very careful to not let that happen. I'm sure most independent builders of fine instruments spend their entire careers never able to make car payments. Some make it over the top and do quite well but most and that is your "local" luthier is struggling. In a production shop there is always the paycheck at the end of the week there is almost no risk.

[Chuck Naill]

...or you can get manufactured housing and get a consistent product, not have to wait, and pay less.
By the way, manufactured housing can be of high quality just as manufactured instruments can, but it seems to me there is a different connotation that I don't fully understand.

Beverly and I have built three houses in our 33 years of marriage. We interviewed and talked about what we wanted before any contracts were signed.

Yes, you want a relationship with a builder, but you never want to hire someone you cannot hire. Don't hire your bother-in-law. ;)

John, I hope you do not mind me saying this, but after reading your web site verbiage and the posts you leave on MC, I can tell that you are a person of integrity. You are honest, straight forward, and I am sure you would be someone who I would enjoy working on a mandolin project with. You are the type of local/independent builder that I feel that I could support. :cool::cool:

chuck:)

[onassis]

for me, the issue really comes down to money. Someday, when finances (hopefully) permit, it is my dream to own a Hamlett. For now, however, even saving up enough for a bottom-rung Eastman seems like a pipe dream. So I'll just keep plinking away on my $200 Washburn and imagine someday being able to support my local luthier!

[dandhr61]

I think it depends on if you consider your insterment art, like the music played on it or just a plain old tool.

[Chuck Naill]

I think it depends on if you consider your insterment art, like the music played on it or just a plain old tool.

Like my grandfather said, "you only have to buy a good tool one time". ;)

[DonnieJoe]

My wife ...bought me my first mando for Christmas and I love it. I was considering having it fine tuned by a Luthier to get some of the bugs worked out but can't find one in my area. I live on Long Island and have been looking but cannot find a local Luthier. Since I am a newbie perhaps someone can steer me in the right direction and help me out. I tried searching the yellow pages on yahoo and have had no luck.

[EdSherry]

I have a significant number of instruments from individual luthiers or small shops (e.g., Sobell, Phil Crump, Charles Horner, Petersen, a nice Huss & Dalton OM guitar), but I've never ordered one directly from the luthier.

I tend to buy used rather than new, so that someone else takes the "depreciation hit." I acknowledge that buying a used luthier-made instrument doesn't benefit the luthier directly (he already sold it once, and doesn't make anything on the resale), but I think that it benefits the luthier indirectly (as having a good resale market for used instruments makes others more willing to buy new ones).

I'm with Allen -- I'll buy a good instrument (new OR used) if I can "try before you buy" in a shop, but I'm reluctant to order one without being able to do so. I know that many luthiers will work with you to deliver what you're after, but I've tended to be of the "I want to hear it and play it before I plunk down my money" school. Given the difficulty of trying to describe in words exactly what you're seeking, ordering an instrument "on faith" that what you will ultimately get is what you were seeking is just not a step I'm willing to take (at least for high-end stuff).

[Charles E.]

Where I live I have observed ' the local guy syndrome '. That is how can you be any good if you live here? Some people think Quality only exists in another part of the country.

[Chuck Naill]

Where I live I have observed ' the local guy syndrome '. That is how can you be any good if you live here? Some people think Quality only exists in another part of the country.

Yes, Charlie, you are in good company.


"And when He was come into His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And they were offended in Him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in His own country, and in His own house. And He did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." (Matthew 13:54-58 KJV)

[Timbofood]

I think that the great cold south would have to win the "ain't nobody in the neighborhood" argument. Unless, of course you have taught the Adelaide's how to "tap tune" (we all know they can tap dance!"). Maybe the Emperors have better feel for it, Who knows? A balmy 9 above this fine morning here, if You, dear correspondant, would want to feel just a touch warmer, Brave soul!

[man dough nollij]

+9F here, too. A bit of a different context, though. That's a balmy late summer day. 17 days of summer left!

Mando content: Only about 170 days 'till the first plane gets here. Then it might be time to obsess on all the gear I can order that I don't need. How about 147 Blue Chip picks! Woo Hoo! :disbelief:

[JEStanek]

Chuck, I'm reasonably sure that our builders don't want that comparison made and I'm also pretty sure that's getting into quite dangerous ground with the Posting Guidelines (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/faq.php).

Thanks,
Jamie

[Timbofood]

Touche! "When you comin' back , Red(White, snowy, frostbitten) rider"?
Keep warm, mid 40's here by end of week!
So, how do you keep your fingertips "in shape" for your return picking?

(That would to return to a modicum of mando content)

[man dough nollij]

Oh, for that balmy Michigan weather! I'll be back to my old stompin' grounds in Montana around November or so. I'll be the pale, trembling wretch with the thousand yard stare... :disbelief:

[sunburst]

The weather forecast calls for about +9 degrees here tonight too. How can Michigan, Antarctica, and Virginia all be the same within one day?!
Mando content; I'm getting ready to stoke up the shop wood stove and glue some top and back center seams. I feel smug using hide glue in "the dead of winter"!

[Santiago]

I'd much rather have a custom instrument, but I can't afford it at this point in time.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Both Allen & Chuck hit the nail right on the head re.my own feelings on this point. I WOULD buy a 'local' builder's instrument if i could play it first without having to commision it.That's the ONLY way that we have to make sure that it sounds & plays right for us.There's no other way we can possibly do that. One other factor comes into play also,that of 'saleability' if we ever decide to
change our instrument & need to sell one to fund another.This is VERY important also. We need to be sure that we have an instrument that we can 'sell on' & only the 'well known' makers have that
reputation such that we can be sure (almost) of finding a buyer for our instruments.
Whether we like it or not - 'names' mean a lot when buying anything.That,& 'who plays' a particular make of instrument. We all KNOW these things are true. The thing that really puzzles me, is why we need to raise the question every now & again "why aren't some makers 'as popular' as others" ? - we already know the answer. There's no doubt whatsoever in my own mind,that there are 'monster' instruments being built that we haven't heard of 'yet'. Re.those instruments,the word hasn't got around,maybe it will,maybe it won't,only time will tell.
Getting back to 'the point' of this thread,most certainly support your local luthier - whoever he/she is. If he/she can make an instrument for you that you're truly going to 'live with' for a long while,then go for it. My own reasoning as to why many of us 'don't',i've stated above - purely my opinion,
Saska ~:>

[barney 59]

It funny but out here in foggy California people think "How can anything from anywhere else be any good?" The mentality is particularly weird since no one is from here.

As for people who think that they can't afford buying from a independent builder--no, you probably can't buy a Gil-- and your not alone there but there are a number of up and coming custom builders who can compete with the price of a Weber or a Collings.

[frankenstein]

Like my grandfather said, "you only have to buy a good tool one time". ;)

Tell that to the Eastman fans, sheeesh ! Independant or local luthiers for me.

[Rob Powell]

I once said I would never buy an instrument that I hadn't played and then I bought my The Loar. I bought it from Big Joe Vest and I bought it on his word that it sounded great.

I support the local mom and pop music stores which I think is also important.

Here are some of the reasons for buying a "production" mandolin:

1) Trade in another instrument toward the cost. This is hard for an independent builder to do.
2) Name value when trading or selling.
3) Readily available to play the instrument that you are buying.

The thing is that I have come to realize that many independents like John or Hans or Bill or Michael or <insert builder here> have a reputation and a presence here on the cafe. That takes care of a whole bunch of things.

You can get a whole lot of feedback from people who have purchased instruments from them. They didn't get that good reputation for poor customer service or for building bad sounding instruments.

As an example, I think it's a pretty safe bet that any mandolin you get from Hans is going to sound great. Just look at all the happy campers here. A lot of independents go to IBMA and other venues where you CAN play a few of their non-spec instruments. You can get an idea of the consistency of their builds from that and from their reputation. I doubt any of them would sell a mandolin that they didn't think passed muster.

I would also bet that if you aren't happy with the mandolin, Hans will work with you until you are. Like all the builders here, he enjoys a good reputation. I'm not saying that all builders do this or even Hans, but I've seen a few builders advertise a mandolin that was built for someone which they wound up not taking for some reason.

Lastly, if you want to sell or trade it at some point, you can get good value for it and a semi-captive audience I might add, right here on the cafe.

For some, "only a Gibson..." and that's what floats their boats. I would say to them that they should contact Jim Triggs or Sim Daley or <insert luthier who built for Gibson> and you can get the sound you are looking for IF you want to go that route.

These are the things that have turned me around on the possibility of having an independent build a mandolin for me.

As a nod to Big Joe, Charlie D. and David Harvey, Gibson OAI built and still builds some pretty fine mandolins so you can't go wrong there either. Bruce Weber, Kim Breedlove and even some of asian connections are building some pretty nice, luthier built instruments too.

As many have said, we live in a good era for mandolins!

[Dagger Gordon]

Depends what you mean by 'local'. Most of the discussion seems to have drifted off into small independent builders as opposed to big companies.

That's not what I perceive the question to be asking. Do you have someone in your own locality- say within 150 miles of where you live- who is a good builder? Is their work good? If so, would you support them.

In my case I can think of a number of builders here in the Scottish Highlands whose work is known here on the Cafe such as Mike Vanden (instruments played by Simon Mayor), Thomas Buchanan (unfortunately now moved to England), David Freshwater and others. A friend of mine has had two instruments made by Skye builder Seamus MacLennan (Skyesound). I am also aware of a number of fiddle, whistle and pipe makers.

I think if you like any local makers work it is good to buy from them. If there are any problems it's good to have them tweaked by the maker himself. However, that's only true if you like the work in the first place.

What I would NOT do is order from a luthier just because I liked the look of their work in a picture without any experience of hearing or playing them.
In Britain we are lucky to have a shop which stocks a lot of mandolins by independent luthiers - The Acoustic Music Co in Brighton.
I spent time there a couple of years ago, and it was very interesting trying out stuff from many different makers - both independent and factory. The one thing which I found was that some of these didn't sound like I'd expected at all. No names, but some stuff which people like here on the Cafe just didn't do that much for me. I put that down to my own preferences rather than anything wrong with the instruments themselves.
I really liked a Phoenix (independent, but certainly not local), but in the end bought a Collings MT.

I should say that I have two instruments by Stefan Sobell (about 300 miles away) which were commisioned and have been fantastic buys.

[Chuck Naill]

Chuck, I'm reasonably sure that our builders don't want that comparison made and I'm also pretty sure that's getting into quite dangerous ground with the Posting Guidelines.

Was this the offense, Jamie?


Topics started for or end up being used to discuss religion, politics or sex as well as other hot button issues meant to create discord are prohibited. Posts or threads deemed inappropriate or unrelated to our subject matter are subject to immediate removal at the discretion of the board owner and/or lead moderator.

I only used the verse to show that not being respected locally is a problem that has been occurring for a long time. Let me clear up that in no way was I comparing independent musical instrument builders to Jesus Christ. I also did not start this discussion to discuss religious views. I apologize if I've confused anyone else. If the moderators want to edit my post, please do. I cannot find the edit button this morning.

chuck

[Mandobar]

here's an update on my mandola purchase from my not so local, but new good friend, Ron Cole:

Ron's mandolas ROCK!!! big voice, lovely fit and finish and tone, tone tone..........it goes on for days. this was Ron's demo so it's been played, and by some pretty hot pickers too. so, i am honored that he let me buy it from him.......it makes me want to order an F5 style dola too.

sometimes you just have to take a chance, and it is a leap of faith. but many of the builders here on the board have oodles of references. the mandolin and even the guitar world is very small.......i think of most luthiers as local.

[frankenstein]

You're right it is a leap of faith.. Mike Blohm built me a mando using emails as our means of communicating. i tend to think of him as local even though he's across the globe from me. I tried not to get in the way of the way he builds with too many requests and overthinking it. He built me one of his mandolins with my input. It worked.

[Chuck Naill]

I tried not to get in the way of the way he builds with too many requests and overthinking it. He built me one of his mandolins with my input. It worked.

My opinion is that the homework a player needs to do is determine what they are looking for in tone, what they want the neck to feel like, and if possible what little eye candy extras they prefer such as tuners and hardware options. It seems to me that the rest is getting out of the way and letting the builder build.

Just like babies and ultra-sound go together, its nice when a builder will do some photo updates for you.

chuck