How to play a turn/gruppetto?

[Tavy]

While looking up the notes for the old-time tune "Elzic's Farewell" I came across a notation I haven't seen before: one for a turn or gruppetto (note not the same thing as a blues turn at all).

The ever useful Wikipedia describes it as "When placed directly above the note, the turn (also known as a gruppetto) indicates a sequence of upper auxiliary note, principal note, lower auxiliary note, and a return to the principal note."

So there are two questions here really:

1) What are the upper and lower auxillary notes? For example if the turn is on a C note in an A Dorian tune (G major scale), what notes would you play?
2) Would you play the actual notes or just a hammer-on-off-on "flutter"?

Many thanks all!

John.

[Philphool]

Since the heavyweights haven't weighed in, I'll give you my understanding.

In your example, you would pluck D, pull off to C, pull off to B, hammer-on to C, all in a fluid ornamentation.

That's my thought. Others are invited to correct me.

[Nate]

Though not really technically correct, I usually prefer turns to have five notes, starting on the "real" note and going up, "real", down, "real" before moving on. Sounds more complete to my ear. Also makes them more interesting as a figure, because you play five notes to the beat instead of four. If it were four, you might as well have just written out the sixteenth / thirty-second notes instead of the turn, but with five notes it sounds more like a flourish (to me).

You ought to use whichever notes are specified by the key unless otherwise noted on the music. You'll occasionally see a # or b above a turn symbol, which means to adjust one of the "auxilliary" notes accordingly (sometimes the lower, but usually the upper). Use your ear to figure out which one gets altered. If it's a sharp, it's like to be the lower note; if it's a flat, it's likely to by the upper note.

I like to hear a pulse on the first note (either the "real" note or the upper note, depending on how many notes you use), and almost always a slight pulse on the lower note when you get to it. You can achieve that however you like, I suppose.

The real question is how to play a turn musically, as they can really sound lazy and mechanical if you do it poorly. Remember that it's an ornamentation, and treat it accordingly. Don't just play it as if it were a musical shorthand for a normal rhythmic pattern. There should be some "play" (to use a mechanical term) in the rhythm and phrasing of a turn. It shouldn't be sterile.

There are almost an infinite number of variations on the turn, each as individual as the player. Develop your own. It's your chance to show off your fluidity and flexibility. Make it "sing," and you'll have achieved the desired effect.

[Tavy]

Thanks to you both for those helpful replies!

Philphool, would you be the chap of the same name from the music-moose? I'm "hamfist" over there BTW.

Regards, John.

[Paul Kotapish]

A turn is similar to--if not identical to--the ornament commonly called a "roll" in Irish music. The way I play them on the mandolin is to pick the note I am ornamenting, hammer onto the note above, then do a pull off to the home tone and another pull off to the tone below and follow up with a hammer onto the original note. All of this happens in the duration of the value of the original note in the melody without ornamentation. (Does that make sense?)

I use that ornament on third note of the opening line of "Elzik's Farewell" (spellings--and settings--vary), a grand old tune usually associated with the Hammons Family of West Virginia. The opening phrase is four equal-length (quarter or half notes, depending on how it's notated, I guess) A's on the low G string, with the ornament on the third A:

A (h) B (p) A (p) G (h) A

(h) = hammer
(p) = pull off

The same ornament occurs again on the first note of the next phrase and again in the third phrase.

Hope this helped and didn't just muddy the waters.

[Tavy]

A turn is similar to--if not identical to--the ornament commonly called a "roll" in Irish music. The way I play them on the mandolin is to pick the note I am ornamenting, hammer onto the note above, then do a pull off to the home tone and another pull off to the tone below and follow up with a hammer onto the original note. All of this happens in the duration of the value of the original note in the melody without ornamentation. (Does that make sense?)

I use that ornament on third note of the opening line of "Elzik's Farewell" (spellings--and settings--vary), a grand old tune usually associated with the Hammons Family of West Virginia. The opening phrase is four equal-length (quarter or half notes, depending on how it's notated, I guess) A's on the low G string, with the ornament on the third A:

A (h) B (p) A (p) G (h) A

(h) = hammer
(p) = pull off

The same ornament occurs again on the first note of the next phrase and again in the third phrase.

Hope this helped and didn't just muddy the waters.

No this is all good stuff, thanks Paul!

John.

[Nate]

The way I play them on the mandolin is to pick the note I am ornamenting, hammer onto the note above, then do a pull off to the home tone and another pull off to the tone below and follow up with a hammer onto the original note. All of this happens in the duration of the value of the original note in the melody without ornamentation. (Does that make sense?)

Same thing as my five-note preference, but in mandolin-specific terms. (I'm a pianist first, and still have far too much to learn on the mandolin.) Very helpful.