Adapting milling machine.

[barney 59]

Woodworking machinery is only accurate to about a 64th but machinists deal in 1000ths. A machinist friend of mine has offered me what he calls his "small" mill to me for what amounts to almost a give away price. It's really a huge piece of equipment and required a fork lift and a boom crane to get it out of his shop. My shop is pretty crowded as it is and it would require it's own annex for me to set it up without it making the rest of my shop no longer functional. I'm at the point that if something comes in something has to go out.

I was wondering if any of you have used or adapted a machinists mill to do woodworking operations and if so how'd it turn out?

[Woody Turner]

If you get the chance, try out some of the anticipated operations (rabbeting, morticing, or whatever) on the mill BEFORE you move it out of your friend's shop. You may find the slower speed of metalworking equipment doesn't give you clean enough cuts in wood (a router, of course, operates at 10-20X the typical speed of a milling machine). Also, keep power requirements, including wiring and motor phase, in mind as you contemplate the purchase.

[Rick Turner]

I've had the smallest Jet knee milling machine for about 20 years, and I really like it. I make a number of metal parts for my guitars, and I'm about to set it up with a stub arbor and stacked spaced slotting saw blades to make nuts for the mandolin kits I make for my classes. I've just switched to using a zero fret, but still it's incredibly hard for students to layout and saw and file string grooves in the nut. That's the single biggest bottleneck in the course. So I can stack eight blades with spacers and pre-cut the grooves in the nut blanks. There will still be plenty for the students to do, but that operation will no longer be so frustrating. I'll cut the slots down to the depth of the surface of the fingerboard so the slots are really just string guides. The zero fret will establish action height. The arbor, spacers, and blade setup will cost about $200.00, and it will save hours and hours of time at forty or fifty students a year.

[barney 59]

That's my thoughts exactly. Woodworking cutters are designed for highspeeds.
Unfortunately due to my friends divorce his shop is now packed into a truck and my friend has embarked on a new career of nude sunbathing it seems. The guy who's machine it is is an absolute genius at this stuff --animatronics and such for Nasa and movies and would be my go to guy to figure this out but right now he's a mess. If someone has figured out proper designs for slow speed woodcutting the accuracy of a milling machine might be very cool! I don't think it would be a matter of the speed it would be getting the tooling right. A chisel does a pretty good job at it's speed.

[Woody Turner]

Too bad your friend isn't trying to unload some CNC woodworking equipment. My nephew, who operates such a beast in a commercial shop, says that it's calibrated in microns!

[barney 59]

My son was working for a furniture shop in NYC for a while and was bragging on them. I found a whole do- it -yourself CNC machine website much like this site but CNC freaks that build their own machines and share information. To do that you'd have to have a mill --oh hey!
It's great do do all that stuff but you can (at least I can) get so caught up with messing with these machines that it gets in the way of actually doing the work. I do woodworking for a living and actually have to get things done in a timely manner. Mostly architectural stuff and some custom furniture, The instruments are for me and maybe the future. I built my shop up on the cheap over years and years and fooling with those old machines got so over whelming that a couple of years ago I canned everything and bought new.
Do you have a lathe? You should. I had a good friend that built furniture, his name was Art Carpenter.

[Rick Turner]

I knew Art "Espenet" Carpenter. I was a member of the Bolinas Craftsman'd Guild in the early 1970's, and Art was one of the founders. I was the first instrument maker in the Guild.

[David Newton]

I would love to have a nice new drill press with a cross-slide-table and vise. There are several different holding fixtures available. And a nice selection of end mills.
It isn't CNC, but it would be better than what I have now.

[bryce]

I have a fairly large mill. It also required a forklift/flatbed day. Not to mention removing part of the wall by the door.
Mine is 3 phase but I have a large converter. I make my own mandolin bridges on it. I radius my fingerboards on it. Cut banjo heel cuts with it. I also (with metal lathe) have the means too make some very nice jigs and fixtures for just about anything I want. I couldn't find adj. screws for a J45 bridge so I made them. Things like that.
For my bridges and radiusing and a few other things I use high speed metal endmills. For cutting the heel cuts on banjo necks I use wood shaper cutters mounted on shafts. I have never had to much trouble with either.
That being said, its not always the quickest way to do things. Somethings I can have done before I would have set the mill up.
I was fortunate enough to get a digital readout with mine that makes it easy to read 1/10's of a 1000ths. Definately overkill for any thing I need, but its easier than reading those little hash marks on the hand dials.
It doesn't hurt to have a dad that spent his life as a tool and die maker either. Without out him I wouldn't have had a chance at the mill. Thanks Dad!
Long story short, If I were you and could make room or store it until you can, I would get it. You will find hundreds of uses for it. Not to leave out doing the odd machine work job on the side. Doesn't hurt to have options.
Anyhow I hope it works out for you.

[Woody Turner]

Barney and Rick--Unfortunately I didn't have the good forturne, as you did, of knowing Art Espenet Carpenter, though I certainly knew of him in the late 70s and early 80s. He had a lot of influence on a generation of woodworkers.

Yep, I have a half-dozen lathes, including one that swings 30 inches. I also have a couple of pre-WWII Deltas set up tail to tail for long spindle work. Mentioning them takes me back to the OP. I have to admit that my caveats about acquiring heavy old machinery stem from years of struggling with these beasts. I'm a strong believer in recycling, but sometimes it's not worth the effort and expense. If I had Bryce's familiarity with machining and tool making from an early age, I would have had far fewer frustrations along the way.

Case in point: Twenty-five years ago I bought a 1940 Walker-Turner metal/woodworking bandsaw from a dealer in Baltimore; cast iron wheels on a cast iron frame with cast iron covers. I paid a machinist to refurb it and then bought some expensive Carter bearings as an upgrade. By the time it was all done, my $1000 investment had grown to $2500, and that doesn't include the hassle of moving the thing around. To make matters worse, the new bearings obstructed full use of the tilting table, and blade tracking has never been satisfactory. Back then, choices were limited for bandsaws, so I didn't really consider many alternatives. Today, it's incredible what you can buy. The same may apply to milling machines, though I really don't know. As Bryce has said, it might be real handy to have one around. But if space is as tight as you mentioned, Barney, it would be wise, I think, to figure out whether such an addition to your shop is worth the cost, labor, and displacement of existing equipment.

[D.E.Williams]

I found a whole do- it -yourself CNC machine website much like this site but CNC freaks that build their own machines and share information.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

But I actually built my cnc with nothing more than three power tools:
Drill press.
Router.
Chop-saw.

All aluminum construction too...

I know...crazy, ain't it?

[barney 59]

I knew Art "Espenet" Carpenter. I was a member of the Bolinas Craftsman'd Guild in the early 1970's, and Art was one of the founders. I was the first instrument maker in the Guild.

While you can name the Bolinas Craftmans Guild by name you can't publicly name the town that it was named after. Anyway that's where I live. I came out here about 25 years ago from W.Va. thinking that I might run into someone that can pay me. I did, but then I met the ones who know how to take it away. But, I believe I maybe one of the last of the prolotariat to actually get a house here. One of the really difficult things out here is coming up with space to work. Building has been virtually forbidden in this town for 35 years and space,real space is at a premium. The whole county isn't much better. (This is Marin Co. California to anyone thats not sure what we're talking about) I have a 400 sq foot shop bootlegged onto my house with big doors on both ends. Sometimes my projects are really pretty large. My kids grew up playing on piles of wood in the living room or their bed room. Working on instruments is such a pleasure, they don't take up much space.
The hippies who took over this town in the 70's did write into the town plan provisions for cottage industry so I can saw and plane and grind in this neighborhood of movie stars to my hearts content.
If anyone who knows of Art Carpenter and doesn't already know, he died a while back. Pretty much all of what you might call modern craftman woodworking is based on Art's work whether they know it or not. I knew of him long before I came out here. He was to woodworking/design what Bill Monroe was music.

The machine we're talking about does have a digital readout. The guy does not have funky stuff, he built robots and such and was considered a true genius by other guys who do what he does and he made alot of money doing it. He did tons of stuff you've seen for movies, I think because, well, he wanted to be there.
As to the cutters it did occur to me that maybe it wouldn't matter as much as I think if they are designed for fast or slow if they are sharp they will still cut. If I take the mill it's not coming in here- it will require it's own space but the price is right. If I was spending alot I think a cnc machine would be just dandy. I think if someone who can would manufacture a simple cnc machine for small shop work that they could sell it. I have seen smaller units advertised but the prices are still way to high unless you are really cranking out alot of product. Maybe a set up where you supply your own router motors or something.
I had a 16" Walker Turner bandsaw myself. It was a nice machine, the doors weighed what? 80lbs a piece! It was a basket case and I fixed it up then I wore that out and bought an 18" Jet. I do miss the weight of the Walker Turner, it was so steady. All my stuff is on wheels,benches and machines so I can reconfigure my shop depending on what I 'm doing. The top heavy but light weight of the new bandsaw with the rolling base and the rubber floor makes it a little shaky.

[Keith Newell]

Please PM me if you feel inclined. I program CNC equipment (up to 9 axis) for a living and I am a journeyman machinist. I have alot of experience dealing with old, new and retrofitted machinery. I know a bit about repair, diagnosing and troubleshooting these systems. I would be happy to give you any knowledge on a topic of your choosing. Machinists deal in 1/10000 of an inch in most cases and yes a CNC can go to microns if you program it in metric (the ball screws are metric so you gain accuracy). This has been my living for 34 yrs (wow that sounds alot older then I am!)
Keith Newell

[bryce]

Woody, You give me too much credit. My machine knowledge is limited. But its sure fun to tinker around with. My Dad is the real machinist.
A few dodads made with mill.
This is my fret bender.

[bryce]

My neck jig. The base holds the body and flips from side to side to cut dovetail pocket. Then I can bolt the neck jig on it to cut the same angle on neck. Definately not my invention.

[bryce]

purfling slot cutter which I never fine tuned and a jig I though I could heat and roll the side wood through to bend the scroll. I haven't used this lately either but its in the archives.
But as it was said earlier, you can kill alot of time having fun on this thing. Not unlike this computer.

[Woody Turner]

Slick jigs there, Bryce. They're objets d'art in and of themselves. It's great when woodworkers can use their own tools to develop durable setups for producing their products. I've found that even a few woodworking tools can be used for metal jigmaking if used cautiously with proper support. For example, my bandsaw cuts nonferrous metals without too much trouble, even at the higher woodworking speed. For bandsawing thin sheet metal, it's always better, of course, to use a wooden substrate beneath the stock to control blade chatter. Turning aluminum and even copper freehand on a wood lathe is in fact not all that hard--just slow. Of course, the shavings get a little hot, so you may want to wear a glove. Do any of you use lubricants when you're machining metal? As a woodworker, I do have to remind myself that many of my habits associated with working wood--say, casually holding stock by hand while I drill into it--can lead to serious injury when attempted on metal.

[Rick Turner]

OK, thread detour here... The biggest problem when drilling different materials is that standard twist bits are designed for drilling steel and iron, and they have a rake angle at the cutting edge to help self-feed the bits into those materials. If you are drilling wood, Plexiglas, brass, or bronze you should either use the sharper pointed slow twist bits designed for those materials OR grind the flutes of all your twist bits for zero rake which sets up a scraping cut. I have nearly all the bits in my shop modified this way, and we don't have bits grabbing parts as the bits break through. I keep a separate drill index of bits just for drilling steel and iron.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

I've got a 16" 1942 Walker Turner wood / metal cutting bandsaw also! 'Love that machine! For a minute I was a bit confused and thought this was a thread over at the Old Woodworking Machines .com website! All old tool hounds should head there regularly, but be careful. In short time you'll be lusting after vintage machinery.

Bryce, the machined jigs look great. Can I sub out some jig ideas your way?

j.
www.condino.com

[Rick Turner]

I've got some "project" vintage machines...a circa 1915 Crecent 20" band saw with new poured Babbitt lower bearings, a circa 1935 massive Crecent 8" direct drive jointer, and a 15" table saw probably from the 1890s on which the table moves up and down to change blade height. The band saw is really sweet, though it needs modern guides; there was a similar model that was powered by footpedals with an additional handle on a flywheel for an assistant to help turn on heavy cuts! I missed out on a ship's saw once...a gigantic 42" band saw on which the entire frame could be cranked for beveled cuts while the table remained parallel to the floor. These were for cutting the progressively changing bevels on ship frames. The workpiece would be marked out with the bevel angles along it's length, and while one sawyer pushed the wood through and another supported the outlying length, a third person would crank the saw bevel mechanism to match up with the marked angles on the ship frame. These saws had to be mounted over a pit because the lower wheel was so big.

[Forrest Mandolins]

I have several machine tools including an 11 foot tall drill press and a lathe that weighs more than my car. My smallest metal lathe(a watchmakers lathe) will fit in a lunchbox. I can machine wood to closer tolerances the the wood dimensions will vary due to changes in humidity and temperature throughout the year, but I prefer to precisely shape wood with hand powered cutting edges and scrapers. Machines tools don't due well with sawdust accumulations in the ways, and there is set up time to consider as well. I do like having the ability to make my own tuners and tailpieces , brass family wind instrument parts, tooling and jigs etc. These I use the machine tools for. I enjoy the process of creating musical slowly by hand. If you get the mill, you'll probably find plenty of reasons to use it.

[Michael Cameron]

bryce,
That's a pretty fair-sized mallet(?) in your avatar! Lignum vitae? Nice fret-bender! Makes the Stew-Mac ones look dinky.

Back in the mid-90s I thought I wanted to construct mandolins. I visited Don MacRostie's shop in Ohio. He was absolutely broke out with various jigs. I hardly knew what they were anyways. I decided to dedicate full time to being a mandolinist artiste. :)) Probably funnier if you know me.

WOW! 42"bandsaw! 11 foot drill press! You guys are serial :cool:
I do enjoy reading about these tools and how they differ from more modern ones.

Interesting thread.

[Woody Turner]

Then and now...

[John Arnold]

When I was in college, I had access to a machine shop at my summer job. I used a Bridgeport for several routing operations like pickup cavities for electric guitars. I also used it for laying out fret scales to the nearest 0.001". Great machine.....I wish I owned one.

[barney 59]

I used to get this list mailed to me from Rocky Mount North Carolina- a whole little newspaper with machinery that the furniture factories were unloading. The prices for some of these giant machines were sometimes no more than their value in scrap iron. Monster size table saws and spindle shapers and such. I saw one of those shipyard bandsaws once -a smaller version could do great things for roughing out a neck.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

I grew up working in the old shipyards up on the St. Lawrence river during my summers, using one of those giant old shipwright's bandsaws to cut up the huge logs of Honduras mahogany that they had stacked out in one of the barns. I've since owned about 8 different old antique beasts, the largest a 40" Crescent.

These days, I stick to just the 16" Walker Turner at my place, but I've also got a secret weapon when I need a big job. One of my neighbors has a 36" Yates American Snowflake from the 1941, complete with a powerfeed (not shown in this image). It is about twice as rare as a Loar signed F5 and just about as cool. That and his 20" jointer make him a good friend since I started building upright basses!

j.
www.condino.com

[barney 59]

That is a really good looking bandsaw-like an old steamboat!--my dreamshop would have a milling section at truck bay height with giant womping machinery to deal with material before it went into the workshop- where the precision tools are and then you could have real precision instead of compromising with general use equipment covering both ends at the same time.
I went though a period once when I wanted to build a waterpowered shop. I was keen -I visited all the working mills I could find and started gathering up parts and thought I found a site. I'm glad I didn't, I'd be still building it! The Army Corp Of Engineers kind of saved me from myself on that when they showed me the ribbon of red tape that the were going to unroll on me. I didn't know until then that they own all the water everywhere down to the last drop.

[bryce]

Grandcanyonminstrel, I'm pretty swamped right now. It wouldn't be anytime soon but would be glad to figure out something if you'd like to send PM.

[bryce]

This is my old Seiki XL. And my Dad working on my southbend. The small mill in the background is an old Hardinge(sp) horizontal I converted to vertical. I no longer have the Hardinge.

[Woody Turner]

That Snowflake takes first prize! If I could have just one power tool (excepting a lathe, of course)...or, just one metal sculpture, that would be it.

[Rick Turner]

You know, it only takes a bit more care to make tools beautiful. The lines of old castings, the paint work, and sometimes even the gold pin striping... Nice!

When I get the 20" Crescent up and running I'll have to make a really nice blade guard for it... Of course in it's day they didn't bother...

[John Morton]

For those who haven't used machine tools, it may not be obvious that there is a fundamental difference in how they're used. With woodworking machinery everything is freehand, in some sense. With metalworking machinery nothing is freehand. You spend extra setup time clamping and aligning your workpiece, and the payoff is in accuracy, consistency and control. I have never had problems with insufficient cutter speed. To me 25,000 rpm is just another way to make noise and burn up your tools.

I started my creative life in Flintstone hippie style, but was drawn by what I would now call the beauty and elegance of machine trade. Is making things from scratch is what you like? You may find it irresistible - the machine shop is where you can make anything from scratch. Look at the works of Frank Ford for an example of zeal in the converted. However ... don't pretend that you need those machines to make instruments. Get them if you like them.

just my 2 cents
John

[Rick Turner]

Ditto on not needing high spindle speed for wood cutting as long as your feed speed is appropriate. I slot bridges for saddles on a milling machine with a 1/8" three spiral flute carbide end mill, and it works just fine.

[barney 59]

That's what I'm trying to find out-- Are there people using these machines for wood applications and it seems there are, at least some.
Have you tried using high speed wood cutters in a mill and if so what kind of results do you get? I was trying to figure out what could I do with it if I had it and slotting a bridge is one process I had thought of. Slotting a neck for a truss rod another. Any more good ideas?
I think the point is -where can I use the exceptional accuracy of this kind of machine to it's advantage as a person who is primarily going to work on wood or am I not going to get that much more out of it than if I just stayed with woodworking equipment that I already know. I don't know all the possibilities of a machine like this or how difficult it would be to reconfigure it to do different tasks. Actually owning something like this to maybe make some jigs and such would be kind of like actually owning a bulldozen because I might need to dig a ditch some day. Sometimes it's better if someone else has it and you can use it or hire them to do it for you or sometimes you just bite the bullet and buy the expensive tool rather than build it. It would be worthwhile having if I use it I guess is what I'm trying to say.

[John Morton]

I'll try to be helpful here. If you have room, and if you pay no more than for a good woodworking machine, I'd say it's well worth it. I can see how you might not see the possibilities if you haven't been around a mill.

Here are a few things I've done over the years: made a set of sanding blocks of different concave radii; made a fret bender (which also required a lathe for the grooved wheels); made male/female dies to press sheet brass into contoured tailpiece shapes; sawn fret slots across a group of fingerboards, using the digital readout for the locations (this required a right-angle attachment); made lots of peghead holes for tuners (DRO for locations) - and more critically, moved tuner holes slightly by making an exact oversize hole over the area filled with a matching plug , then redoing the tuner hole.

These are small jobs that employed the mill's flexibility. None were essential, but the machine has solved many problems for me. Production techniques also pay off big, if you are on that scale. You can figure out yourself the benefits of repeat operations - the bigger your batches the more time you save.

Again, check out the frets.com machine shop pages. Also consider all those expensive Dan Erlewine gadgets they flog in the Stewmac catalog - it all comes from machine shops! If it looks like fun, go for it. If you try to do the financial math, you'll probably talk yourself out of it.

John

[barney 59]

One thing for sure- I will never be large production anything. It's not so much financial math as square footage math. I was waiting to see if someone mentioned fret slotting--- The idea of having a machine that is more accurate than hands or eyes even is really appealing and I can see that it does have the possibilities that I imagined. In most woodworking none of this is an issue-- whats (+-) 1/64th to a chair! But musical instruments now that's a little different. Routers for example, even good ones, are not very accurate in my opinion. Is the center the center r-e-a-l-l-y and who came up with aluminum against aluminum for adjustment? Sometimes it takes a long time to realize that a problem your having isn't you after all. You build a jig for something and from one direction it's spot on and from the other it's slightly off-- that's the tool! So if you do it again so it's the same both ways you have half the error and you turn maybe a 64th into 128th but it's still there . I think if I can work out the logistics of this I will try and get the mill, it seems like a good idea and to be able to make all those gadgets besides is kind of appealing. I actually have made a bunch -copying from catalog photos and making them out of hardwood and over the counter hardware. They usually work pretty well even if they don't have that NASA look. They really give away to much when they print those catalogs --sssh don't tell them! Thanks for you input.

[Rick Turner]

Just don't forget that musicians' hands are the ultimate accuracy measurement...and take that for better or worse.