OM scales, compare 20" with 22"/23"

[steve V. johnson]

I hope bring this up without talking about how hard or easy it is to change from a mandolin or guitar to octave mandolin scale lengths. That's not my concern.

I'm aiming at those of you who have octave mandolins of different scale lengths, and I wonder what your experiences are of the difference between them. That could be a fairly small population, but my impression of y'all CBOM folk is that some of you here have experiences
of this sort.

I'm most curious about the difference in 20" (or so, as they happen) scale and the 22/23" length
for instruments strung in unison, -not- in octaves.

I assume that "it's easier to reach notes for melody playing" is in there, so it's my hope that we can go right on past that and get into other differences.

I deeply love my Phil Crump zouk (25.4", same as my guitar), but I keep having a nagging curiosity about shorter scales and how they operate.

Tangentially:

The 20+" Fylde OMs that I've played seemed to beg for heavy stringing (at least on the G and D courses) and thus had nice tension and very prominent bass response. I just played a Garrison OM whose G course felt quite floppy to me but still had what seemed to be as deep a bass response as my Crump. I have often felt that I have more bass than I need from the Crump, and I think of shorter ones perhaps as a way to ... uh ... 'lighter' timbres (tho the Fyldes blow that notion away... :-) )

Please tell me bass management with short (20-23") OMs? Enough bass, too much? Widely variable with strings and setup, or the same, or within a narrow or 'fixed' range, whatever you change?

Also, and tangentially, how many of you play up the neck, to or beyond the 12th fret, chordally or melodically, on a regular basis? ... Or not?

Thanks, very much,

stv

[Steve L]

I'll take a stab at this one Steve. I have a few instruments covering lengths from 20/ 23 25/26 1/4. None are top shelf instruments.

The best analogy I can come up with to contrast them is (Hopefully you mis-spent some of your life as an electric guitarist ;)) comparing a Les Paul Junior with a P90 to a Strat to a Tele. All solid body instruments with single coil pickups and all have similarities but each is distinctive in very definite ways. I think shorter scale lengths start at the Junior end with warmer fatter aspects and progress to the crystalline "spanky" quality of the Tele as they get longer. I don't use very heavy strings as I play tunes as much as harmonic structures and music's hard enough.

I would never dream of comparing any aspect of my playing to them, but the sounds I imprinted on with these instruments were the 70's recordings featuring Lunny, Irvine, Finn, MacMenemy. I don't really want a lot of bottom myself...I really like that sparkling mid-rangy sound. For anything deeper than that, I'd just as soon use a guitar.

I capo up as hight as the 7th fret at times and use a 1st inversion d chord voicing with the F# at the 11th on the G course, but I don't really run the neck the way someone like John McGann might.

[John Flynn]

I have a 22.75" Mendel OM, strung in unison. I play it every Sunday at church and practice with it a lot at home. I play both rhythm and melody. I rarely go up around the 12th fret, but I do occasionally and the sound rings true up there.

It's been a great scale length and tone for me, although I have no other prolonged CBOM experience to compare it to, other than playing them in stores. The bass is great. It really booms and it has a ton of sustain. Using J80 strings, I still wish for a bit more tension on the G and E courses, so I can't imagine what it would be like on a 20" instrument, although I know some people do OK with it. I may experiment with different strings at some point, but haven't yet.

My OM is Sitka Spruce over Grenadillo. I have played a later Mendel that I think was Engleman over Cocobolo and it had a more focused tone, with a little more treble and a little less bass. If you want to hear me playing mine after I had only had it a few weeks, go to Joe's website below:
http://www.jmendelfrets.com/Sub_OctaveMandolin.aspx

[Graham McDonald]

The big difference is that for the 20" scale the frets are closer together :grin:

To be a little more serious, as the scale length gets shorter, the strings have to be heavier/thicker, which means that they are not vibrating with as many harmonics or overtones, so the sound is more 'solid' (for lack of a better term). A longer string, and I am a big fan of 26" scale zouks (good enough for Lunny and Irvine!), means that there are more harmonics or overtones in any particular note and the sound is more 'open' or 'lighter' or even 'zingy' to attempt to describe tone. Of course there are some other factors involved such as soundboard construction and timber selection, but the basic stuff about how a string vibrates is a constant

cheers

[Greg Ashton]

I had a Weber Sage with a 21inch scale. I preferred it tuned up to A (ADAE). I wished for a bit more out of the G course tuned to G despite trying many gauges. If I wanted a flat top tuned down to G which might be used at a session I don't think I'd settle for less than about 22.5 inches. That's just my experience.

[man dough nollij]

I got a Trinity College 20" scale OM a couple of years ago. I've always felt really comfortable on it-- great starter OM.

A year ago I ordered a Weber Custom Bridger A OM, sight unseen. I had played a couple of Weber OMs in stores, so it wasn't a completly blind purchase. I believe the scale is 22.5" on that one.

It is completely different from the TCOM. The neck is way wider, way thicker, and the scale seems a lot more than 2.5" longer. On the TC, I can sometimes cover the fifth fret with a ring finger. On the Weber, that is strictly pinky land. I find the Weber to be such a stretch that it just isn't fun to play. If there's anything else around to plink on, it stays in the case. (It's going to be in the case for a long time anyway, since I'm 10,000 miles south of it.)

I hope the Weber finds a good home with a reformed guitar player, who will think the neck is just right. The next time I get an OM, I'm going for a slimmer neck and shorter scale. BTW, the Weber flat top Sage models have an even longer scale (23.5", I think-- I couldn't find it on the STE site). I asked someone at Weber why that was, and they told me it had to do with the string break angle over the top.

I can't imagine how someone with normal hands would play the zouk length (24"+). There would have to be a lot of jumping up and down the frets to grab notes.

I've seen the opinion here that 20" is too short for good power and volume. I'm skeptical of that-- the Weber is not significantly louder than the TC, though it's a quantum leap ahead in quality and refinement.

[steve V. johnson]

Steve L wrote, in part, "I think shorter scale lengths start at the Junior end with warmer fatter aspects and progress to the crystalline "spanky" quality of the Tele as they get longer."

I do have extensive experience with those electric guitars. This is a really interesting analogy!
Thanks!

Hey Johnny Flynn, thanks for the audio! Very cool!

Graham (yer such a tease!), I had not thought about the length re: string vibrations that way, thanks!

Crispin, that observation about the low course, and the alternative of tuning up to A, is really interesting. I was very surprised at how the G course felt on the short Garrison, it really caught me out.

Geez, Pen, you're back in the deep freeze! Wow, that seems a really short time up here. Thanks for the comparisons, I knew that you had several different instruments. It's my understanding that the carved-top Weber octaves are 22" and the flat tops are 23" even. You wrote, "I've seen the opinion here that 20" is too short for good power and volume. I'm skeptical of that--..." I haven't seen that here and it's a pretty foreign concept to me, so I, too, am very skeptical. I guess I have faith in luthiers to do the math and move things around to make compensations.
Certainly the 20+" Fylde OMs lack nothing in power and volume.

Thanks to all, good stuff. I hope we hear from more folks, too.

stv

[Richard Singleton]

I play a 25 year old Flatiron 3k octave. I usually don't go above the seventh fret for melody and will often capo up to that fret to get DAEB and have a shorter scale length for tunes, so i have less to reach for and can play with more speed. (Yes I have thought about getting a 20 inch scale instrument as well in my O.M.A.S) I have mostly had the Flatiron tuned in unisons and sometimes feel the low G course is just a little too bassy with the recommended string gauges for the instrument. I am looking for that sparkly midrange mentioned above, and wonder if slightly lighter gauge G strings will still drive the top volume wise. The only 20 inch scale OMs that I have tried were a couple of Trinity College and a Fender in a local music store. They were easy to get around on but lacked the sound and projection of my Flatiron. I once tried a TC zouk and preferred it to the TC OM despite the longer scale length.

[mikeyes]

Steve,

I have a 23" OM (see the atavar) which you have played in the past. I use 46-12 strings tuned unison on it with a fairly deep sound. I have a Dave Dart OM which has a thick neck, but that seems to add to the sound. Mostly it is a matter of adjusting to the scale length (which is like a tenor banjo) and I use the four finger guitar style to finger the frets. With this style scale length is a little less of a problem.

I can bring it to StL in April if you want to play it for comparison.

[catmandu2]

Regarding man dough nollij's post about shorter scale tone: when I acquired my Olde Woods OM, I immediately sold my TC. In comparing the two, it was immediately apparent that the TC lacked what the OW provides, which to my ear is a quantum leap. They're both 20" SL...perhaps the extra body depth of OW provides the greater tonal capacity.

While playng longer scale instruments presents playing performance challenges, they pay dividends in tone. Like Mike, when playing my longer SL CBOMS, I often employ guitaristic fingerings.

[steve V. johnson]

Catmandu2 sez, "While playng longer scale instruments presents playing performance challenges, they pay dividends in tone."

That captures well some of the things I was wondering when I started this. I'm not convinced of the immutable truth of either of those assertions, so I wanted to ask.

Some years ago I had some conversations with a few luthiers who had come to feel that either 22" or 23" was the magic number, where they could get good tone, string tension and touch both bases, of single-line melodic playing comfort and chordal tone and volume. But, since then folks have been building lengths all over the place. So I wanted some insight into all that.

Thanks,

stv

[Danny Packer]

My Nyberg is 22.5, and i tune it GDAD. I use a lot open droning chords and I like what I get that way. That said, for melody playing, I sometimes wish I had a slightly shorter (21?) scale. On the other hand, when I occasionally retune to GDAE. I don't find the scale of be much of a problem. I've contemplated going back and forth between tunings but I find that to be a pain. I've just made my peace with the idea that I'm going to play melody on the instrument I have and work on figuring out fingerings that work for me.

Clearly, Steve, you just need another instrument!

Danny

[Gerry Cassidy]

My Sobell was a 20". A dream to play. I was able to pull off a bunch of mando melody stuff on it. The Rozawood is 21.5" and is still pretty fun to play. It crosses over really well from melody to accompaniment. The Crump is 24" and even though I am stubborn as all get out I have to just give in and realize it's an accompaniment instrument. But, that's okay. It sounds great!

[danb]

You get a little more thummmm and sustain on the longer-necked beasts.

[Mike Floorstand]

I have a bouzouki (25.5"), and two OMs (one just over 20", one just under 23"). I haven't had any of them very long and have yet to explore different string types and gauges. I think they're all going to need different string gauges, which might be a factor if you like to get a discount on buying strings in bulk.

I current have the 20" strung with some mandolin strings I needed to use up - I no longer have a mandolin. So that one is tuned CGDA - tenor mandolin. I guess that makes the 20" scale the most versatile instrument, although my plan is to put it back to GDAE once I've used those strings up.

I play melody and the bouzouki is obviously a lot harder for that but it forces you to think about moving the melody somewhere else on the neck which is always a healthy thing; then translate this back to the shorter scales.

In terms of balance, bass, tone etc. I wouldn't like to make any definitive comment, as I say I haven't had any of them long and need to experiment with strings. It's also going to be comparing apples and grapes: the 20" is a 2-point, shallow bodied, induced arch; the 23" is a teardrop body but much deeper almost like a guitar, and with a carved archtop; and the bouzouki has an archtop guitar body! They all sound great, but in very different ways.

[steve V. johnson]

Mike,

You're perfectly equipped to answer my original question! But I'll be patient and wait til you're over your "tenor mandolin" experiment with the 20" for more of a comparison... ;-)

That's a nice collection, too! Who made your various instruments?

Finally, did you name your guitar tabs page after the John Brosnan recording of the
same name? :-)

Thanks,

stv

[Bob Borzelleri]

I think the conventional wisdom regarding optimum scale length for octave mandolins is a bit too narrow. I don't know how we would expect one variable to be definitive regarding bass range, for example.

My first octave mandolin had a 22.5" scale and my current OM has a 20" scale. The 20" mando has much deeper and full bass than I was able to get out of the 22.5" version. The determining variable wasn't scale length, it was body size/shape and construction approach.

I gave up on the first OM because I didn't want to have to adjust to new fingerings. Now I have an instrument that is quite easy to play with the same mindset as the mandolin and with the added bonus of full sound across the spectrum.

[danb]

I have a 20 3/4" scale Sobell 10-string.. it has the body size of the large bouzouki. A friend has the longer necked (26" I believe) version with the same body, the longer neck gets a bit more sustain I recall, but they aren't far off

[catmandu2]

danb's experience seems the ideal means of making a comparison. Perhaps danb can describe other qualities in sound between the two. However, as these differences are often subtle and discerned subjectively, reporting may not be a very practical matter.

[Steve L]

Lots of talk of bass response here and not as much "thrum and chorng". My only experiences have been with teardrop shaped oval hole instruments and while I've heard great instruments at all scale lengths, my own preference is the 23-25" area. I really like the sound of the longer scale instruments and don't find them really tricky in terms of fingering until you go past 25".

[first string]

It has been my experience that the conventional wisdom has some grounding in reality. Obviously there are a lot of factors (and thus exceptions), but my feeling is that all things being equal the longer scale gives one more sustain, but also makes it harder to play melody at high speeds. I don't see that it has any huge effect on bass, as long as you are using appropriate string gauges, but there is a definite correlation with how long notes ring. Neither sound is better, but there are differences. I tend to prefer the full on bouzouki sound, but I have trouble dealing with a longer than 23" scale. Still haven't found the perfect solution. I'm thinking it's probably to get a bouzouki and just keep working at it, but I still haven't decided.

[EdSherry]

I have a number of citterns, OMs and 'zouks from various makers, with different scale lengths. It's hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison, as different makers' instruments have very different sounds. My Sobell citterns just sound different from my Burgin or Fylde citterns.

That said, I have two Phil Crump spruce-and-Indian-rosewood instruments, a short-scale OM (just over 20") and a longer-scale 'zouk. I generally tune the OM to GDAE and the 'zouk to GDAD, though before I got the OM I sometimes tuned the 'zouk to GDAE. Both sound very similar.

I find I much prefer the short-scale OM for playing melody lines. The finger stretches are just a lot easier, even though the string gauges I use are heavier on the OM to compensate for the shorter neck.

For chordal work, I tend to prefer the 'zouk. With the lighter-gauge strings and the longer scale, it tends to "ring" a little bit more than the OM.

When I'm just taking one instrument to a gig/session, I generally take the OM.

[Bob Borzelleri]

I think the "all things being equal" only applies when all things are actually equal which, in my experience, isn't very often, if ever, when comparing different manufacturer's CBOM offerings.

There are a few manufacturers (Phil Crump comes to mind) who offer the same sound box with different scale lengths. That's where an "all things being equal" analysis and comparison would make some sense, IMHO.

[margora]

I play octave mandolin in the Providence Mandolin Orchestra. 20 inch scale is actually quite long by European standards (European octaves, almost all of which are bowlbacks, are around 17). For the PMO I use a Weber alto mandola (17 inches) restrung as an octave; I also use a 20 inch scale legitimate octave (custom). Both of these instruments work fine. For most mandolin orchestra music I think 20 inches is probably the maximum one can use and still be fluent, at least for me.

[Mace]

Robert, what strings are you using on your Weber?

[margora]

"Robert, what strings are you using on your Weber? "

Argentine octave mandolin for GDA, on the E string I believe (I am at work, I would have to check) I am using a wound second string from D'addario (for mandolin). One could also use the Argentine E string but on my Weber this would entail some adjustment to the nut (which I would rather not do).

[Mace]

Robert, could you check on the E string as to what set and gauge? I have a 17" Eastman mandola they might work on.

Thanks

[margora]

I checked. The E string on the Weber is the A string from a D'Addario set for mandolon, FT74, their flattop set. The gauge is .015. Probably one cannot go lower than this and still stay in tune.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I've been holding off jumping in until my Gypsy arrived. Well, it's here. So my comparison is between the Gypsy 2-point 20" scale and the Richard Beard 24 3/4" scale. I have GHS Bouzouki strings on the Beard - 44 to 12, and D'Addario J72's on the Gypsy - 49 to 14. As you can see from the pics the Beard is bigger, longer, wider, and deeper than the Gypsy. They have both Spruce tops. The Beard is KOA b&s, the Gypsy is Cocobolo b&s. The Beard has a fixed bridge, the Gypsy's is adjustable. First a written description and then I'll try a couple of sound files using a video camera to record the sound.
The Beard is louder with more sustain and the lighter gauge strings give it a brighter sound. The OM is bassier - probably because of the heavier strings. The Beard has a slimmer and faster neck - which is nice for the fret jumps on my small fingers (I don't use my pinky - yet).
I don't know what the sound characteristics of the Koa vs the Cocobolo are.
Strange thing is, no matter which one I'm playing I can't imagine playing the other one...
Anyway, first the pics, sound to follow...

[Bob Borzelleri]

Eddie...

My Gypsy OM came with 52-11 strings. Did yours come with the 49-14 or did you spec the set?

...Bob

[Eddie Sheehy]

It came with 52 - 12. I found the the 12's too light for the 52's, the sound seemed off balance. I'm much happier with the J72's, 49 - 14. I may even go for GHS 285's, 44 - 12, which is what I have on my Beard.

[Mace]

Robert,

The strings arrived today and as I was stringing it up I thought it might be too loose....however, it sounds as if its settling in....I'll report back in a day or two. I feel this is going to work.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I'm uploading the clips to Youtube today - I couldn't figure out how to seperate the sound from the video and save as MP3's. They either have GYPSY or BEARD in the title and I tried to play the same things on both. These are not "performances" and are only trying to show the comparison of the instruments doing the same things - by the same lousy player. Probably take most of the day to get them uploaded...

The individual titles are:

GYPSY BLUES -------- BEARD BLUES
GYPSY ROCK ---------- -
.
GYPSY JIGS ---------- BEARD JIGS
GYPSY JIG/WALTZ ----------- -
.
GYPSY COUNTRY ---------- BEARD COUNTRY
GYPSY JESU ---------- BEARD JESU
GYPSY BLACKSMITH --------- BEARD BLACKSMITH
GYPSY FIFE-O --------- BEARD MCBRIDE

[Bob Borzelleri]

I guess they haven't made it into the search feature yet.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Uploaded so far:

Gypsy Jigs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ3N5kG5wrU&feature=channel

Gypsy Blues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDKvLSdjURE&feature=channel

Gypsy Rock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bg-IJBfKVo&feature=channel

More uploading....

[Eddie Sheehy]

The Blacksmith - BEARD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQy5QwTIwyc&feature=channel

The Blacksmith - GYPSY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQy5QwTIwyc&feature=channel

Arthur McBride - BEARD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFAcDRRXAIQ&feature=channel

Blues - BEARD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5HMeGK7-wA&feature=channel

Ballads - GYPSY (Fife-e-o / Fields of Athenry)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzOpI4_9n_8&feature=channel

Country - BEARD (Country Roads)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYiQWn4F7FU&feature=channel_page

Gypsy Jig /Waltz (Road to Lisdoonvarna / Pernod Waltz)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwvISzuGVYs&feature=channel_page

Beard Jigs - Merrily Kissed the Quaker / The Kesh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyeLiMBUOcY&feature=channel

Beard Jesu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPdw1EibDkg&feature=channel

Gypsy Jesu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2m3hBSOypE&feature=channel

That's the lot - quick and dirty.

Of the other OM's I've had the Flatiron (23 1/2" scale) was a little closer in sound and tone to the Beard. The Garrison has a more subdued sound but being lighter and smaller than the others is a lot more portable and easier to play in tight places. With the flatwounds on the Garrison has quite a sound like a Classical guitar. In summary then, The longer the scale the lighter the string guage the more sustain and ringing sound. Unfortunately, because of my small reach I don't hold the notes long enough and seem to spend most of my time moving my wrist to accomplish the fret-stretches - in particular Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring, where I play the notes more clipped than I'd like. Hope this helps you on scale lengths Steve...

[man dough nollij]

Eddie,

Is that a Kiwi rugby jersey? I don't recognize the team.

Mando content: Well, he was playing an OM...

[Eddie Sheehy]

Nope, won it (the yellow thing) in a golf tournament. I do have several Kiwi Rugby jerseys though (Hurricanes, Crusaders, Chiefs, Blues)... Actually that's a Munster Rugby shirt in some of the clips...

Mandolin content - The Munster supporters song is the Fields of Athenry which is in one of the clips...

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Eddie,

Thanks for all the video links and your perspective on the scale lengths and your experiences with 'em!

This post is powered by the Abbey Ceili Band's first, and eponymous, CD. ;-)

stv

[PT66]

could some one tell me why an octave mandolin which has nearly the same range as a guitar uses a shorter scale and smaller body then a guitar.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Conversely, why does a guitar have a larger body and a longer scale?

[PT66]

I have one of those short scale small bodied travel guitars. Not much tone.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I have one of those short scale small bodied travel guitars. Not much tone.

So the larger body and longer scale works better for the guitar then...

[Bob Borzelleri]

Eddie...

Are you using mandola strings on the Gypsy? I was under the impression that mandola strings would not span the 20" scale. Thanks.

...Bob

[Eddie Sheehy]

Mandola strings span the 20" scale. The Flatwounds with the fabric twined round the ends tends to extend beyond the nut on some OM's - though I have TI's on my Garrison 20" and they do not extend beyond the nut. J72's and J76's work fine. I'd venture to say that they would fit my Beard but I'm happy with the GHS PF285's on that.

[Michael Wolf]

So the larger body and longer scale works better for the guitar then...


I think it would be possible to build a guitar that sounds good with a shorter scale, except the low E wouldn´t sound very good below a scale of 60cm I suppose. Maybe nobody does it because the guitar sounds better like it is and it doesn´t cause stretch-problems anyway because of it´s quart tuning.
Roughly the same applies to OMs too, in my experience. OMs with shorter scale can sound really good, but a longer scale would be a tonal advantage nonetheless. But you have to decide if you want to work on the streches of the fifth tuning on a longer sacle. That´s the main reason why short scale OMs are built, isn´t it?

Btw.: Thanks for the effort to make all these videos, Eddie. These are two very nice and very different instruments.

[steve V. johnson]

could some one tell me why an octave mandolin which has nearly the same range as a guitar uses a shorter scale and smaller body then a guitar.

Dave, this seems to be a question that could go pretty deep into design questions and such, so I've started a thread just for it in the CBOM section.

You might get even better responses if you were to mention that threat in the Builders' forum, too.

stv

[Eddie Sheehy]

Mike, I couldn't help but notice your postscript of Sionnach ( Fox ). Wouldn't Mactire (fada on the i) be more appropriate?
BTW, where is Kassel in relation to Munich?

[Michael Wolf]

Eddie,
I´m not sure if I understand your post (Mactire ?), sorry. There are still language barriers for me sometimes.
Kassel is about 450 km north from Munich. Will you be in Munich next time?

[Eddie Sheehy]

[I]'m in Munich this week. Mactire is the Gaelic for a wolf, Sionnach is the Gaelic for a fox...]

[Michael Wolf]

ah, yes ok. I don´t own a Gaelic dictionary like my band pal do. The name was his idea, he has a affinity to foxes.
Unfortunately Munich is not exactly around the cormer from us. Next tuesday we´ll have a session in a little pub, owned by a irish lady. I think Munich will also have some nice sessions. Do you attend sessions in Germany? How long will you stay?

[Eddie Sheehy]

Just got back to L.A. Didn't find any sessions in Munich - or music stores. Had a pint in Kilian's Irish Pub AM Dom and in the Shamrock Pub in Salzburg. Too busy sightseeing Castles and Churches for anything else... maybe next time.