Jointing without a jointer?

[Brett Moore]

So I've just recently started the physical process of building my first instruments after a long period of studying and researching every possible material I could get my hands on. My question of the day for all those experienced luthiers out there has to do with creating joints for gluing top boards without using a jointer or any power tool. I know there are jointer planes out there, like a #7 Stanley, but I have a tight budget and limited access to tools right now. Could y'all talk about how you've prepared your tops and backs for gluing using more modest methods?

[billhay4]

I have a lot of trouble with this myself. But, I'd recommend a shooting board IF you have a short plane that cuts well.
Here are some plans for one Shooting Board plans (http://www.whitemountdesign.com/ShootingBoard.htm)
You'd clamp your piece onto the board long ways and have at it.
Conversely, you can clamp the plane and move the board across it like a jointer.
If you have no plane, I'd take it somewhere to get jointed.
This is a critical joint and needs to be right.
Bill

[Joel Thomas]

You could use sandpaper adhered to a flat surface, like a piece of plate glass or granite, but this is laborious and leaves a less than desirable surface, especially if you plan on using hide glue.

You don't need a #7 to true something as short as a top plate, a #5 is plenty long enough, and being the most common size, can be had second-hand (via e-bay or tool seller) for under $50 if you don't mind doing a little rehab, and even less if you buy another make, which are just as good as a Stanley.

[Rob Grant]

I don't particularly like the "scream" of power planners or joiners, so my choice is a No.7 and a homemade "shooting board." Until I designed this setup, trying to properly join tops was a righteous pain in the arse. The board and plane is a pleasure to use and I get a perfect join every time. You can probably use a shorter plane, but the longer No.7 does make the job easier and more exact.

[buddyellis]

I use an almost identical setup to rob, except I use my table saw as the 'table, and a long, flat piece of oak (well actually two pieces, one laminated to the other with the plane clamped to the lower one like you see above, this is to raise wood up into the center of the plane) as my 'shooting board'. I also tend to pull the wood TOWARD me as I find, for me, it's more controllable. Personal preference.

P.S. you can easily use this setup with a #5 if you are careful. You can find them all day for under $30 if you look around. It'l likely need some tuneup to get it working right (most old planes will be setup for smoothing, etc, not jointing, and the blade will likely be slightly rounded so the edges don't cut into the work when smoothing, you'll have to work on getting the edge dead flat again for jointing work, but this isn't a big deal)

[Rick Turner]

There ARE limits to what you can do with a very limited budget, limited tools, and a limited skill set. When I went to Ecuador, I saw a couple of lutherie shops in which the only power tool was a band saw and the hand tools would fit in a briefcase.

If you want to see a guy working with great skills and minimal tooling, check out the Benito Huipe video on building guitars Paracho-style. You'll be amazed to see what the Spanish tradition luthiers can do with not much more than a home-made knife, but they've got years of experience and amazing chops.

[Gerard Dick]

You can make your own wooden plane too. Then your main expense would be for a good iron. There were plans or a link to plans posted here a little while ago.

[grandmainger]

I second the use of a #5 plane. I have actually used my trusty old Record #4 to joint a top, but it was a little too short and I had to work on it quite a while before I got a good fit. A #5 with a well-sharpened blade will certainly do the job, and can be had for cheap on the second-hand market.

GM

[Keith Newell]

Hey Buddy and Rob, I use the same setup but with a #8 and it has a Hock blade system in it. It is so satisfying to hear the sound it makes and if you save the chips they make awesume fire starter.
Keith Newell
http://www.newellmandolin.com

[Bill Snyder]

I have several planes including Stanley #'s 3, 4, 5 1/2, 6 and 7 (and various other makes and sizes) and for joining top/back plates I prefer the # 5 1/2.
Brett you want to join the plates and you said you have limited access to tools right now. In order to answer your question we would need to know WHAT tools you have access to. Otherwise we are going to be suggesting using things you do not have.
Do you have a plane of any size? Can you afford $15-20 on a garage sale plane? Do you have a router or can you borrow one? Do you have a 2-4 foot long level? If so you can glue sandpaper to it and make something similar to the shooting board to use.
Your best may bet may be to borrow the needed tools or pay someone to join the plates for you.
Good luck.

[Rob Grant]

Keith wrote:
"I use the same setup but with a #8 and it has a Hock blade system in it. It is so satisfying to hear the sound it makes and if you save the chips they make awesume fire starter."

I know what you mean about the sound.

Someplace I heard that Viking scribes would copy runic inscriptions on the edges of planks and then plane the message off in a single continuous "curl." They would then bind the "curl" with a thin bit of fiber and send it as a sealed message. I don't know if this is historically true, but it sounds good. The wife and I call those beautiful, thin curls of wood "Viking love letters."<g>

[Doug Edwards]

Here's my humble set up with a cheap Goez #5 jack plane. Git 'r done.

[Rick Lindstrom]

There's an old trick used by picture framers to get good joints: They cut the frame material as close to 45 degrees as possible, put it in the clamp that will hold it together for gluing, and then slice down through the joint with a coping saw. A little wood is removed, and when they push the pieces together, they have a very good joint. The beauty of this is that it doesn't matter if the angles were perfect, or if they were cut perfectly square to the material.

I can see this method being adapted for use in joining plate halves. It would require a jig that holds the halves on a flat surface, and provides relief for the saw. I'm envisioning a fine toothed Japanese type saw with no stiffener on it's back. Something like the super fine double edged saw on this page:

http://www.sharkcorp.com/Pullsaw/Finecut-Saws.html

If I were attempting this, I'd probably figure out a way to hold the halves with a slight separation so the saw would be sure to follow the joint. Maybe put something the thickness of a business card between the halves as you clamp them down, and then take them out before making the cut.

The beauty of this is that all you'll need is the saw and some scraps to build a jig, and the saw will be useful for other aspects of building your mando (I have one of these that I use frequently).

The same thing could probably be done with a router on a jig (run a straight bit through the joint), but that's a little scary to think about.

Rick

[markishandsome]

"You could use sandpaper adhered to a flat surface, like a piece of plate glass or granite, but this is laborious and leaves a less than desirable surface, especially if you plan on using hide glue."

This is what I did before I found my #6 at the flea market. If you want a more desirable surface, hit it with a cabinet scraper when you're done sanding. There's a pretty frustrating learning curve to getting a good joint with a plane. You might have more fun just building an instrument or two the caveman way before complicating things with fancy tools.

[Bill Snyder]

Rick, several people use a router as you described. I have done miters as you describe running a saw through them but on a long joint I do not think a hand saw of any type would do this successfully. I could be wrong.
I have a little flat top I joined doing something similar with a table saw about 4 or 5 years ago that still looks good. I tagged the two sides of the top plate together with two cleats and ran it through the saw using a fine toothed plywood blade. The blade was set shallow so as not to cut the cleats. Glued and clamped only with blue tape. I have not used the top on anything so I can hold it up to a light. It still looks good. Since then I have planed all of my joints.

[Rick Lindstrom]

I have done miters as you describe running a saw through them but on a long joint I do not think a hand saw of any type would do this successfully.

Hi Bill-

I'd agree with you if the piece being worked was an already profiled and very thin flat top board- it'd be dicey.

I'm betting, though, that for a carved plate, the joint is wide enough that it'd guide the saw through nicely, especially if a little clearance is provided.

If it works, I could see it being a lot easier and quicker than fooling around with persnickety planes :)

Rick

[Timbofood]

What about getting in good with a highschool shop teacher? A bit left handed but, my old shop teachers would have thought it a good way to spend an hour after school.

[Bill Snyder]

Might be a good idea, but does your local school district still offer wood shop?
Like has been mentioned by others in other threads a community college might offer wood working classes and have the necessary tools.

[Brett Moore]

I'm in college at Belmont University in Nashville (actually majoring in mandolin performance! but that's another story...) and I've researched all the local community colleges in the surrounding area. None of them seem to have a woodworking program! I've been asking around in my church to see if there are any men with shops/garages full of tools but haven't had much luck there either...*sigh* The journey continues..

[Stephanie Reiser]

This is my shooting board set-up, in this case jointing a guitar top. I recently came across a larger plane of my dad's, and I will restore it and try it out. If I already posted this pic, I apologize for the redundancy.

[Rick Turner]

All this router and cutting through is complicating a pretty easy task. Stanley #5s and #6s can be had for about $100.00. Self stick sand paper and a 5" x 30" length of 1/4" plate glass or a scrap from a granite counter maker could be had for less than $20.00. For that matter, just the self stick paper and the ground cast iron surface of a table saw would do fine. Just make a vertical fence, and you're done.

We run tops first on a jointer and then finish them up on self stick 150 grit on the table of my pin router with a fence. No big deal.

[Rob Grant]

A planed surface (fixed blade), in my experience, is superior for gluing to one that has the fibres roughed and contaminated by sanding.

[Rick Lindstrom]

I think the original poster was looking for a method that didn't use planes or machinery.....

Rick

[Rick Turner]

Yeah, well you can chew the joint perfect, too, if you really want to...This is like asking of you can use a can opener to remove an appendix. Yes, you can... If you can afford to use a computer to ask this question here, you can afford to borrow a hand plane and learn how to use it.

There's a point where you simply have to use the right tools to get a decent job done. If someone doesn't even want to use a hand plane to get a good glue joint, I think they are likely to be SOL on building a playable instrument.

[Stephanie Reiser]

The point about using the right tool for the right job is very important. When I started out building instruments I did not have alot of luthier-specific tools. Such as fret-work, etc. To build playable instruments, as Rick said, you just need certain tools - whether you beg, borrow or buy them. I had build quite a few instruments by walking to my neighbors house to use his magnificent 17" bandsaw. My hand plane is not the best, but it works. I am still planning on restoring that larger plane this summer, but my smaller plane, kept quite sharp, does the trick. I've never used sandpaper to join a plate.

Rick, I enjoyed reading about you in Acoustic Guitar magazine.

[Rick Turner]

Thanks, Stephanie. That might have been the Fretboard Journal article on how I build acoustic guitars, though I do write frequently for AG as well. As for FBJ, I'm finishing up an article on teaching mando building in Tasmania, just to bring things back mando-centric here!

I understand the whole bit about a sanded joint not being as perfect as a hand planed joint. I also know that the surface from a jointer is not perfect as it's got the little scallops and all that. However, we've joined literally hundreds if not thousands of tops and backs using a jointer and some 150 grit sandpaper on a flat surface with a fence to assure a 90 degree angle. We simply do not have problems with this. I don't have seams opening up. I prefer not to sand, but in a shop with employees it's what I have them do. I tend to go with just the jointer, and I take that last pass quite slow so as to minimize the scallops. I then use hot hide glue which will swell the scallops enough to get perfect glue joints.

Admittedly, this is easier with the thin tops I make for flat topped instruments. If I were making archtops, I'd get them close on the planer and then go to my Stanley #6 set really fine for a final pass.

There is "good enough", and I think that going beyond, beyond, and beyond good enough (when you do set the bar sufficiently high) just becomes an exercise for the ego. It's like the luthier whose name I forget who claims that any use of power tools at all is bad for the wood. Yeah, like I'm going to hand saw the tree and let it down gently in the forest, dig a pit, and pit saw billets out, resaw with a frame saw, etc., etc. That's just ego talking at that point.

[Avi Ziv]

I'm in the process of completing my first instrument - an iv kit, and starting to think about building the next one from scratch. Since I have no access to large power tools , and need a less dusty environment, I am going with a #6 plane, as Rick suggested. I bought it from the classified section on the woodnet forum. There are a number of plane fanatics over there who restore planes and sell them well tuned and in great shape. I got mine (type 11) in beautiful condition for $65 and it works just great. The right side is a perfect 90 deg and will work well for shooting.

[Rick Lindstrom]

If you can afford to use a computer to ask this question here, you can afford to borrow a hand plane and learn how to use it.



Hand planes have a rather steep learning curve wouldn't you agree?

Rick

[Rick Turner]

I assume that's a tongue in cheek remark...

Because, no, hand planes don't have a steep learning curve...once you learn how to sharpen a plane iron. The learning curve is less than for learning how to type without looking at your keyboard.

Are people afraid of hand tools?

[Rick Lindstrom]

I assume that's a tongue in cheek remark...

Because, no, hand planes don't have a steep learning curve...once you learn how to sharpen a plane iron. The learning curve is less than for learning how to type without looking at your keyboard.

Are people afraid of hand tools?

Not tongue in cheek at all. Just learning to properly understand and sharpen a piece of steel has been a journey for me; I've always considered that and using hand planes to be a bit of an art, one that is constantly refined, never completely mastered. But then again, I look at the keyboard when I type.


Rick

[Avi Ziv]

I've always considered that and using hand planes to be a bit of an art
Rick

I think your are right. However, I see the art component as one of the differentiators between humans and machines. Remove it, and you can get robots to build almost anything. I'm not promoting "art for art sake" however I am personally drawn to these intangible and "analog" aspects of life. I am saying all of this while designing computer chips for a living (!), so I do understand technology, it's place, and some of it's limitations.

I would like my hands to stay as close to the material as possible. Others may feel differently. Of course I don't build mandolins for a living so efficiency is not my primary concern.

[Rick Turner]

Maybe it's because I've used hand planes for fifty years, but I don't consider it to be a really big deal compared to a lot of the tasks in lutherie. I grew up in a boat building town where using hand tools was simply normal. I learned plane craft with a beautiful old lignum vitae plane that was about 10" long and had to be adjusted the old way...with careful hammer taps fore and aft and side to side. That plane burned up in a fire...more's the pity.

As for sharpening, Google up the "Scary Sharp" system. Works great. Use a holder to set the angle of the plane iron, sharpen with sandpaper glued to glass. You'll be amazed at what you can do with a hand plane.

[Rob Grant]

There's stacks of info available on the proper use and abuse of hand planes. As they say, it isn't exactly "rocket science."<g>

I didn't really learn how to properly use a handplane until I started building timber instruments in the late 90s. At the time it was the only thing I could afford (hell, still is!). I have to admit that I've lately fallen in love with the things. I now use them on projects where I should be using a power planer. I also love the fact that I haven't got a potential 240 volts AC (Oz) feeding a hand tool!<G>

[Rick Turner]

Yeah, you guys and your 240 Volts! I must say, I like how small the extension cords are, but I'm also surprised not to hear of more deaths by AC mains. I guess, though, that 240 won't kill you any deader than 110 if you really grab a hold. Either will do the final job just fine.

[Avi Ziv]

Yeah, you guys and your 240 Volts!

LOL - I grew up in Israel where the mains are 220V. At some point in the late 1970's they developed quick-acting electronic fuses to protect the whole household. The installers would go selling them door to door. The sale would usually get sealed when the installer would demo/test the unit by taking a metal rod and sticking it into the outlet to prove that it would trip the fuse before he could get zapped. This dare-devil act was only topped recently by the live demo of the SawStop developer sticking his finger into the blade....

[Rob Grant]

Rick wrote:
"Yeah, you guys and your 240 Volts! I must say, I like how small the extension cords are, but I'm also surprised not to hear of more deaths by AC mains."

I remember as a kid in the "Old Country" (USA) stickin' me fingers in an empty light socket and gettin a fair buzz off the experience. Needless to say I"m not game to try that here!

Those thin little cords we have on electrical devices amaze me too. Luckily most proper power tools have fairly meaty cords. I once put a 760 mm circular saw blade through its own cord. Luckily the saw was double insulated. The experience was slightly reminiscent of Guy Fawkes Night.<g>

[John Arnold]

I also know that the surface from a jointer is not perfect as it's got the little scallops and all that.
Visible scallops at a slow feed rate are usually the result of not having the blades aligned with each other. Having one blade a couple of thousandths higher is all it takes.
I will occasionally true up a guitar top joint with a hand plane, but if the jointer is set up right, it is seldom necessary. I have the jointer set to do a spring joint, with about a 0.002" gap in the middle. I joint both halves of a bookmatch together, taped or clamped face-to-face. That way, you don't have to have a perfect 90 degree joint. The angles will cancel. Wedge-shaped mandolin tops can also be jointed together, though they must be clamped together on the backside, since that is the flat face of the joined top.

[Rick Turner]

Fully understood. I just don't worry about the little scallops which are so small as to be imperceptible, though I know they are there.

[mandolooter]

I hear ya...whats a little scallop between friends!:grin:
I've glued up a lot of wood and having a perfect fit works fine ;)but stuff ripped on a table saw with a rip blade is still holding up some 2o years later, of course its a tad thicker since its cabinetry doors n stuff like that. Whatever works for ya that makes ya feel good is what ya should use! Save most of the rocket science for rockets!:))

[Timbofood]

Brett, is sounds to me like the bulk of these responses are saying the same old saw (ooohh, that was BAD!, sorry)" practice makes, if not perfect, certainly better." Or maybe "If at first..."
and that could be the "plane" truth.
Sorry everybody, too much coffee can make me abrasive.
I'm done!!

[Rick Turner]

I would not trust a table saw cut as a glue joint surface for tops and backs. I have used table saw cuts for neck laminations when using a power feeder and a good rip blade. Under those conditions, a sawn surface can be amazingly good.

[Craig Norconk]

Never thought of using a plane on its side as a Jointer, Thanks for the idea, Just made a soundboard with 9 very very tight joints, Had to use some of my 130 yr old house for to make it:whistling:

[Stephanie Reiser]

On thin plates like flat-top guitars I use the shooting board method I uploaded a pic of earlier. For thick plates I mount the plate half, one end in the vise and the other end support from the floor and plane away, each half individually. I then use a very straight edge to check for gaps. Hide glue needs a perfect joint.

[mandolooter]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would not trust a table saw cut as a glue joint surface for tops and backs.

I totally agree just making a point that clamped and glued joints don't have to be perfect to stand the test of time. Nothing wrong with "overkill" in my opinion either, doing something as good as you can is very satisfying...the "be all you can be" thing!

[ellisppi]

I finally got some pics of my setup. Stanley 8. Shoothing board is angled and tilted. Neat glue up jig I invented. It uses spring pins for constant clamping pressure and is clamped to a granite table. Wood is cnc cut and the glue joint only gets 1 or 2 passes with the plane. It works great. Getting the right clamping force without buckling the top can be tricky

[nkforster]

I watch my good friend Davy mann of the Hexham Violin shop join plates by hand. He puts them in a vice and plane them together with a sharp bench plane. No jigs, go machines, just skill. His joins ar so good he uses a rub joint - no clamps, just hide glue. He rubs the plates together and stands them against the wall. Perfect. I'll video him some time and post it. We could all learn from him.

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com

[sunburst]

Many of us on this forum use rubbed joints for our top and back plates. I learned to do them that way because it is so difficult to clamp wedge shaped pieces.

I hope lots of people read this thread and take notice that Tom, who understands and uses machines, jigs, and CNC equipment quite well, has chosen to use a hand plane for his plate joints.
Hand planing joints is such a simple process and yields such good results, and here we have an example of one luthier with expertise in both machine tools and hand tools choosing the hand tool for the job, perhaps more folks will consider it as a viable method. Thanks, Tom.

[Lefty Luthier]

I used a #7 plane setup similar to those shown for years but if one has a bandsaw or access to one, it is simpler to just glue two pieces of wood together and then use a wide kerf rip blade to split the joint apart. A bit of clean up with a piece of sandpaper stuck to your bench top and then reglue. With this method, I can make a nearly invisible joint. Another fool proof way is to just buy wide boards.

[Bill Snyder]

.... Another fool proof way is to just buy wide boards.

Wide as in one piece tops and backs?

[Rob Brown]

I have no desire to become a luthier, but I do build some furniture, and lately I have been using hand tools a lot more. The problem I see most is dull tools. Planers and chisels need to be set-up properly and they need to be razor sharp. The more you struggle with a dull blade, the more tearout results and thus a weaker joint. That would apply to hand tools and power tools.
Fine Woodworking magazine has had a couple of recent articles about setting up chisels and planes, and they have also had some on-line video on the subject. That said, I'm not a subscriber to any magazines, but I buy the ones with articles relevant to whatever project I'm working on or considering. In some cases, I'm working on getting my tools set up properly, and that makes it all a lot more fun and satisfying.