Volume of sound question

[demotlj]

I am rather new to "classical mandolin" but am enjoying it immensely. I have begun playing mandolin/recorder duets and mandolin/guitar duets at our church and have thus far been using a bluegrass mandolin to do so but would like to get a more appropriate instrument. I saw a vintage Martin Style A (1917) instrument that has a very sweet tone but I'm wondering whether it has enough projection to be heard beyond the confines of my living room. In fact, most of the bowlbacks or older mandolins that sound more "classical" to my ear are all lighter and seem to project less.

Is that, in fact, the case and if so, do they have enough volume to be heard in a sanctuary played with a small ensemble (recorder, guitar)?

The Martin is $800 which would be about my upper price range so if the issue is that I need to pay more to get a mandolin with more projecting power, I guess I'll have to give up the idea.

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

Laurie

[vkioulaphides]

Good morning, Laurie, and welcome aboard!

We... *ahem*... older ;) denizens of the Cafe are always delighted to see "new blood", as it were, in the mando-sphere.

I'm afraid, however, that you labor under a misconception: while bowlbacks DO sound lighter, they project MORE, not LESS than other mandolins. The reason is the brightness of their tone, the emphasis on the upper overtones, etc. Think of the lowly triangle: is there ANYone who fails to notice it, even amidst a massive symphony orchestra?

In other words --if played appropriately-- a quality bowlback should chime loud and clear all the way to the very, VERY last row of seats in any decent-sized concert hall. One should not mistake the instrument's delicacy for weakness.

Finally, the mandolin is truly ideal for the sort of ensemble you have in mind, i.e. with guitar and recorder-- both rather gentle-sounding instruments, by any standard. The balance should be PERFECT! :)

I qualify all the above by the proverbial grain of salt: if the acoustics of the sanctuary you speak of are unfavorable, perhaps you should amplify ALL three instruments involved. As you surely know, guitarists face the same issues as mandolinists, while their instrument, by its nature lower and more mellow-sounding than the chirpy mandolin, is even more likely to get lost in the no-man's land between the player and the listener.

I wish you all the very, VERY best in your mando-life.

Cheers,

Victor

[Bob A]

A few years ago I was privileged to attend a concert in an old church in Baltimore, in which our Jonathan Rudie played mandolin along with a guitarist. The sound carried clearly to every corner of the acoustially live building. (I wandered about in order to verify). I was surprised that J did not play his Embergher, and asked him about it. He used a little Vinaccia instead because he didn't want to overpower the guitar(!).

While both instruments are bowlbacks, the Embergher is a professional soloist's instrument, while the Vinaccia is more likely to be used by the man in the street, so to speak. In the US, a noce Martin bowlback would be the functional equivalent, I suppose.

I can't say whether a flatback Martin would work as well, but my strong preference is for the bowls.

[vkioulaphides]

"...the Vinaccia is more likely to be used by the man in the street, so to speak."

Ah but... how happy such a man would be! :)

Cheers,

Victor

[John Zimm]

Just for the record, I play classical music almost exclusively (except when I'm playing songs for my three year old) and I play an F-Style. I love the tone of the bowlbacks but the F-style works well too. Of course, I covet and daydream of getting one of Brian Deans citole mandos...

Best of luck on your mando search.

-John.

[demotlj]

After I posted this, the owner of the store where the Martin is (Stutzman Guitar Center in Rochester NY) happened to call me on another issue so I asked him the same question and he said that he thought the A style oval hole instruments had the sweeter sound I am looking for but more projection than the Martin. He then went into this long description of the reason involving strutting and shape and physics, and basically what I got is that I might want to look around some more! The Martin isn't a bowlback so that might be part of the issue. So I guess I'll keep playing Renaissance on my bluegrass for a while and stay on the lookout for a more classical looking and sounding instrument.

Which leads to my next question -- besides looking more authentic, do you think there is an advantage to getting a bowlback over an A style round holed mandolin as far as sound goes? Especially if I can't afford a hand crafted one? (I'm thinking $500-800 is all I can spend without telling my son he'll have to drop out of college so that I can support my mandolin habit.)

Laurie

[allenhopkins]

Hi, Laurie -- fellow Rochester-area mandolinist and Stutzman's Guitar Center (http://www.stutzmansguitarcenter.com/) habitue. IMHO, flat-back, canted-top mandolins like the Martin are decent compromises between bluegrass instruments and bowl-backs. I would say that if all you're planning to play is classical music, a bowl-back would make a lot of sense. There are a wealth of decent-grade domestic bowl-backs from the period 1900-1920 around in the price range you quote. If you want to play other styles of music, I would consider getting something like the Martin (I think I've played it up at Dave's, and thought it was a decent instrument).

In my experience, bowl-backs have a clear treble sound, one that does fit well in a baroque/classical ensemble, and that can carry through a large, but "live" space like a church sanctuary. What they have seemed to lack, among the ones I've played, is the "meatier" mid-range and lower overtones. The canted-top, flat-back mandolins like the Martin have had more mid-range, perhaps a less "cutting" top end. Carved-top, oval hole mandolins like the Gibson A models have had a "beefier" sound, rounded and sweet but not very "cutting." Those instruments are also above your quoted price range, in almost all cases.

Generalizations aren't worth a damn, including this one, as the saying goes. Individual instruments of the same type vary widely, due to the individualistic properties of different pieces of wood. You may find a "bassy" bowl-back somewhere, or a canted-top flat-back that's a real "cannon." The evaluations above are mainly based on my own limited experience.

[Bob A]

Personally, I feel the bowlback sound is unique. I'm especially partial to Italian instruments, though that's probably a prejudice not grounded in reality. As mentioned, the bass response is thin, especially if you're used to the Gibson style of heavy carved oval-hole instruments. Nevertheless, it is a sound that grows on one, and is certainly delightful in it's own right.

There are many worthy US bowlbacks, from the Martins thru Vega (the Vega Pettine Special is to my mind the finest production US bowlback ever made, bar none) to Larson Brothers instruments like Stahl, Maurer etc. Others as well; all should be judged on their individual merits rather than the makers' labels.

The Italians are numerous, and while the Big Three, (Calace, Embergher and Vinaccia) rule the upper reaches of the price roost, there are many lesser-known makers of wuality instruments at more approachable prices.

Prices. I've paid anywhere from $200 US to over 3K for bowlbacks. The $200 ebay Ceccherini is as fine an instrument as might be found, but needless to say, it was a lucky find. Good stuff can be had in the high three figure neighborhood. If you're a stranger to the game, advice is very useful before committing to a purchase. This board is a fine place for such advice.

As to carved oval-hole instruments: I state unequivocally that the finest classical mandolins made are the carved Lyon & Healy/Washburn instruments. They have the bowlback treble, and a far richer bass than any bowlback. They will not come in under 1500 from what I've seen.

As far as bass goes, there's quite a range in the bowlback world. A nice old Calace with a substantial bowl can produce a decent, if far from Gibsonesque, bass response. But that may not be what you want. The sparkling bowlback treble goes to the heart of the bowlback mandolin soul, after all, and no single instrument can gice you the full range of tonality that the mandolin can produce. that's why there are so many kinds, and why Mandolin Acquisition Syndrome (MAS) is such an insidious dis-ease.

Finally, do beware: there are tons of early 20th century bowlbacks that are suitable only for flowerpots; they were produced poorly, cheaply and quickly for the tourist trade. Then too, some quality instruments have suffered over the decades from various kinds of abuse, and are in need of professional repair, which is in itself very hard to find on this side of the pond. Very few US luthiers have much experience with bowlback instruments.

If you're in the Rochester area, you might stop by Bernunzio's shop from time to time, and acquaint yourself with what bowlbacks he might have in stock; gather some hand-on experience and see where your tastes lie. Be advised that the instrument will feel awkward for a time, until you get used to it. Don't let that put you off, though. They are well worth the time taken to accomodate yourself to them.

[demotlj]

Thank you all for your great help. I especially appreciate the mention of Bernunzio's in Rochester -- I'm actually an hour and a half away from the city (in the boonies of Alfred) so am not as familiar with all of the music stores in the area and this is a wonderful tip.

I've played guitar all of my life mostly, though, to accompany my singing so I have been able to get along just fine with two guitars (steel string and nylon) but clearly playing instrumental music on a mandolin, especially given my eclectic tastes in music, may require, or at least give me the excuse to buy, several different kinds of mandolins. I will stop trying to think of finding a "one size fits all" mandolin and allow myself the luxury of assuming that I may go through many mandolins in my lifetime.

Thanks again for your advice.
Laurie

[vkioulaphides]

Another MAS-addict is born. ;)

Enjoy it all, Laurie!

Cheers,

Victor