"Rest Stroke" at high speed? [Archive]

Paul Kotapish

Feb-10-2009, 12:43pm

A lot great Manouche players--Django-style jazz guitarists--play almost exclusively with rest strokes using a really fat pick. Many bluegrass mandolinists--and some guitarists--do something roughly equivalent. It's a valid approach that can get great results.

Here is some info with exercises and some demo video clips:

http://www.serendipity-band.com/misc/manouche/src/butee-en.htm

I've never been able to break myself of the the alternating stroke, but I do tend to use rest strokes when I want a more emphatic sound or a more Monroe-esque feel on a blues passage.

John McGann

Feb-10-2009, 2:39pm

Rest strokes help you keep your hand low to the strings, so when you alternate pick you tend not to lift the strings in the air, but rather play them 'down toward the top', which gives you a much better sound/projection, since the strings are ringing much more efficiently.

Dfyngravity

Feb-11-2009, 10:08am

In my experience they are more of a tool/practice. You really can not play a rather quick tempo and do rest strokes because the "rest" takes time, therefore you can not play as quickly.

Here is what it does for you:
1. It keeps your stroke motion minimal. So if you are playing notes on the same string you can play them quicker and more efficient. This is crucial for great tremolo.
2. In order to do a rest stroke you actually have to dig in a bit harder to make sure you play through the string and come to rest on the one below it or above it. If you try to do it lightly, you will probably bounce off the string and it will be hard to come to rest on the below or above string. Being that you have to dig in a bit, you will get better volume and more control.

I use the rest stroke as a practicing tool. I sit there and do it until I can not longer stand it, speeding up, slowing down. In the last year, my right hand has improved greatly. I have better tone, more volume, and much more speed to my playing.

ralph johansson

Feb-11-2009, 11:45am

i like to say that the rest stroke is implicit in everything i do.
for instance, most of my phrases end with a rest stroke because of the pick direction i use.

on the guitar i like to play a really hard rest stroke followed by hammer-ons or pull-offs or sweeps; the down stroke triggers these figures, as it were. not sure i can carry that over to the mandolin. i do like to play triplets with two downs on neighboring courses followed by an up on the higher course.

John McGann

Feb-11-2009, 2:40pm

In my experience they are more of a tool/practice. You really can not play a rather quick tempo and do rest strokes because the "rest" takes time, therefore you can not play as quickly.

I have to point out the entire Gypsy jazz idiom of guitar is based heavily on rest strokes. No lack of speed there- youtube the Rosenberg Trio for example...check the djangobooks.com forum on technique, etc.

Rather quick tempos ;)

40bpm

Feb-12-2009, 9:24am

Thanks for all the informative replies.

I've been practicing the rest stroke on both down and up picking - is it correct to do it in both directions?

Another advantage of the rest stroke is that you are guaranteed to play thru both strings on a given course (or courses for double stops). More tone, more volume, more control.

It hadn't occurred to me that rest strokes would encourage one to keep the pick close to the strings at all times.

I'll keep doing it with the metronome - 40bpm is my handle for a reason!

Jan

TomTyrrell

Feb-12-2009, 2:19pm

Gypsy Jazz guitar players use downstrokes a lot more than your typical mandolin player today. For some reason, there is a school of thought in the mandolin world that you absolutely MUST adhere to the alternating (downupdownup) picking even when changing strings.

I pretty much use downstrokes whenever I can. They used to be true rest strokes but there comes a time when you don't really have to rest your pick on the next string to get the power. I practiced rest upstrokes a lot so those upstrokes don't sound much different than the downstrokes. I can only do 120 downstrokes a minute for about 30 seconds so being able to use upstrokes is quite handy.

Dfyngravity

Feb-12-2009, 6:55pm

I don't think you absolutely have to adhere to D U D U pick strokes at all. In basic pick stroke theory, 1/8th notes are usually played D U D U. But that is not always the case, you could be playing a jig in 6/8 and then it is nice to use D D U to get that rhythmic feel. Crosspicking is also done using D D U strokes. Or you simply might want a particular feel or groove that requires you to break the D U D U strokes.

Bill Monroe used the downstroke quite well. And it is still used quite a bit in bluegrass. And yes you can play at a rather quick pace using only downstrokes, but you simply can not play at the pace you can if you add in upstrokes. I just don't see how you can play a fast pace and do a true rest stroke. You may be coming in contact with the string above or below the one you plucked but I wouldn't call that a true rest stroke.

Brad Davis (the guitarist, played with Sam Bush) has a great technique using D D U strokes on two consecutive strings. He explains that you use a rest stroke to practice, but once you get it p to speed the D D basically becomes one motion of D and then U.

Anyways, I love using the rest stroke to practice. For me it keeps my pick motion to a minimum.

Here are some good videos....
http://www.mandolinsessions.com/apr08/Keyes.html

chip

Feb-12-2009, 7:10pm

Could someone post an example of a "rest stroke" being used. I'm completely lost on this post.

Dfyngravity

Feb-12-2009, 7:23pm

Check out the link I posted. look at the videos...righthandpart1.

Basically to pluck a string, say the D string with a downstroke and then the pick comes to rest on the A string or the G string if you do an upstroke on the D string.

chip

Feb-12-2009, 7:51pm

So what's the advantage of doing this verses plucking the note and lifting?

Dfyngravity

Feb-12-2009, 8:05pm

Advantages:

1. It keeps the motion of your stroke to a minimum. It keeps the pick in the confounds of the strings below and/or above the once plucked.
2. Forces you to drive through the string producing a bit more volume and better tone.
3. Keeps your hand and pick closer to the strings.

chip

Feb-12-2009, 8:16pm

That's a lot harder to do than it is to see. Interesting. Now I'm completly screwed up in dudu

Jim Broyles

Feb-12-2009, 8:16pm

So what's the advantage of doing this verses plucking the note and lifting?

Well, I don't lift, but I don't use the rest stroke either. I see no advantage to deliberately coming to rest on the adjacent string.

Keeps your stroke to a minimum? How? Seems to me it forces you to use a wider stroke.

chip

Feb-12-2009, 8:19pm

Actually, I don't lift either but I sort of see where the volume, tone and sound would be affected by this motion. Interesting. ~o)

ald

Feb-13-2009, 3:48am

Actually, it's very interesting what Peter says in those videos. What he says, I think, is to practice the rest stroke so you get the feel in in your plectrum. I don't think you have to actually do the sweep to the next string all the time in a real situation. I think what you are after is the tiddlywinks motion (mentioned by Ted once when talking about rest strokes). I also listened to his advice on tremelos where he mentioned stopping on the next string as well (in your imagination at least). I tried this with the tiddlywink image in mind and the sound seemed to be much improved. The opposite of what Marilynn Mair says about tremelos (no force on the downstroke, just going with gravity but a touch of force on the upstroke - no criticism of Marilynn intended, it works very well for her). Any ideas on this?

Dfyngravity

Feb-13-2009, 5:56am

Well, I don't lift, but I don't use the rest stroke either. I see no advantage to deliberately coming to rest on the adjacent string.

Keeps your stroke to a minimum? How? Seems to me it forces you to use a wider stroke.

Like I said, I use it as practice to help keep my motion of my right hand solid. And it does keep your stroke to a minimum. Here how I see it: by doing a rest stroke you have to use a bit of force, playing through the string and coming to rest on the next string. This keeps your motion somewhat one dimensional, basically your wrist is hinging down or up. However, the lighter your touch and quicker to play, your wrist motion becomes more two dimensional...your wrist hinges down or up and then as the pick his the string the wrist then hinges out away from the strings. In order to make the next stroke you have to hinge your wrist back to the strings and then up or down. So the closer you can keep the pick to the strings the smaller your stroke becomes, and practicing the rest stroke I believe helps you to do it.

Jim, I doubt to make a conscious effort to lift, but it is a natural motion in a pick stroke. If you were you take a high speed camera and what your pick stroke at like 30 frames per second or more, you would see your stoke is similar to what I just described. You don't necessarily lift your arm away from the strings, but your wrist will hinge slightly away from the strings, it is this motion you want to keep to a minimum so you have less of a distance to return your pick to the strings.

Jim Broyles

Feb-13-2009, 6:09am

Actually, it doesn't do that. My pick stays between the strings,but I don't make it come to rest on the next string. I don't see how making it rest on the next string can keep your stroke smaller.

TomTyrrell

Feb-13-2009, 8:14am

I don't see how making it rest on the next string can keep your stroke smaller.

It doesn't but that "rest" statement does make it easier to explain the stroke in words. Most people have a tendancy to swoop in and out with the pick when they hit the string. Practicing those slow rest strokes can help them learn not to do that. Anything that helps one learn to use a nice flat stroke though both strings will improve tone (unless you already make nice flat strokes).

Practicing rest strokes on double stops can be even more valuable. A nice flat pick stroke across both courses really helps the sound of double stops.

Jim Broyles

Feb-13-2009, 10:14am

kudzugypsy

Feb-13-2009, 10:41am

its hard to give some advice here without a little more info from the poster, and i'm sort of beginning to think from the replies that people think you play ALL rest strokes and thats not really the case - you are still using D U D picking but your angle of attack is different

i tell people there are 2 ways to 'pick' the string - you can pick AT the string or THROUGH the string. picking AT the string is when you make a "U" shape on the DUDs using mainly your hand/wrist - and picking THROUGH the string is when you drive the pick at an angle causing it to rest on the next string - this is done with a drop on the whole forearm/wrist/hand in one motion - now, when you are really needing speed, you have to adjust this some.
so...
THE classic example of up tempo rest stroke picking is the youtube video of Dave Apollon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwOZjFvjKUA&NR=1
- which should answer the debate about not being able to play rest strokes as fast as free strokes - you can clearly see him at this camera angle using rest stroke picking.
just watch that video 1,000x and you will get the idea...

40bpm

Feb-13-2009, 12:05pm

As the original poster, I was looking for input on whether to always use rest strokes on both down and up strokes. My conclusion is to practice that way with a metronome for as long as I can stand it - then just clear my mind and play.

If I keep at it, maybe I'll have to change my handle to 50bpm :).

Jan

TomTyrrell

Feb-13-2009, 12:09pm

Wait a second. If we want a flat stroke, what's up with all this righty bevel/lefty bevel stuff? And doesn't Mike Marshall teach keeping your headstock up at a 45° angle to your picking forearm? And why should I practice coming to rest on the next string, if I really want to stop between the strings? I am not trying to be argumentative here. This truly makes no sense to me.

You are over-analyzing this whole thing.

The common tendancy for a picking motion is to hold the pick above the strings (further from the top of the mandolin than the strings) and then swoop in to pick the string and swoop back out to avoid hitting the next string. It is better to have the pick down between the strings and stroke straight across both strings in the course without moving the pick closer to or futher from the top of the mandolin. This will produce a better tone but the tendancy would be to pick the next string as well on the follow through. When one consciously tries to stop the pick before it hits the next string one tends not to pick both strings in the course with the same force. The way to avoid slowing the pick while it moves through both strings is to use the next string to stop the pick. That is the rest stroke.

Pick bevel and the angle you hold the mandolin also affect the way you strike the string but now you are getting into the issue of attack angle on a different dimension. It is best not to have the pick moving either from the bridge end to the nut end or the other way.

You really want to pick straight across the strings with the pick at the same depth. If you already do this you should just find another topic to read.

BTW, tremolo is not a rest stroke.

John McGann

Feb-13-2009, 12:09pm

Rest strokes really maximize the punch and projection of your instrument. Try this:

pick a string (course) with the 'swooping' pick that lifts the string up as you pluck. Watch the string vibrate- kind of vertically.

pick the same string with a rest stroke and watch the string vibrate. It spins in a circle, and to my ears, creates a rounder, fatter tone- which I think happens because the instrument is now doing what is was built to do, mechanically speaking- getting the bridge and top to vibrate more efficiently.

You won't use them much in fast fiddle tunes, but getting used to the angle needed to execute them at slower tempos helps you keep the pick 'in closer' to the strings, or what i can 'down toward the top', rather than that lift/drop attack that to my ears is unlovely in contrast. YMMV.

The Gypsy picking works great on guitar where you play less notes per string. Their rule is to never switch strings on an upstroke (obviously there are some exceptions, but that's the traditional gypsy way to do it- NO exceptions in the hard core tradition). When you play Django's lines and sort out how he had to finger them with two functional left hand fingers, and you apply this rule, it leads you to some AWESOME discoveries, both tonewise and approach-to-the-fingerboardwise.

Your downstroke/reststroke Monroe stuff sounds pretty lame when you alternate pick it, as does Chuck Berry and Metallica :mandosmiley:

John McGann

Feb-13-2009, 12:11pm

OP- they aren't generally used on upstrokes...

TomTyrrell

Feb-13-2009, 12:15pm

OP- they aren't generally used on upstrokes...

Well I've never been able to use a rest upstroke in anything but practice but doing it in practice helped me learn to stop lifting the pick on the upstroke.

Jim Broyles

Feb-13-2009, 12:24pm

Yeah, but I never swoop. My pick stays right down there at the strings. I don't lift it on either the down- or the upstroke, but I don't bring it to rest on the next string. I don't even how to try to make myself do it. The whole thing seems abnormal to me. And how is there an "attack angle" along with a "flat stroke?" To me "flat stroke" implies no angle, as in parallel to the strings. I think I'll just go back to never having heard of a rest stroke.

AlanN

Feb-13-2009, 12:28pm

:)) :))

Jim, you don't swoop? All the cool cats do it...last time I swooped, I got a DUI.

kudzugypsy

Feb-13-2009, 1:35pm

the reason rest strokes work so well is, as john said, you are now PUSHing the string into the soundboard, this is a BIG deal vs just 'picking' the string to put it in motion - its an entirely different movement.

and Jim - you dont need to use a rest stroke ALL the time - its just another tool in your bag - i use the rest stroke maybe 60% of the time, mainly when i really need to "dig in there and whip it like a mule" - i dont understand all the confusion with the small adjustments needed to produce one tone over another tone - if you look at a violin bow, you would think ok, down bow, up bow, what more is there to it - well a violinist can use that bow to get a WIDE range of sounds by the speed he pulls it, where on the bow he chooses to play, the pressure from his wrist, the angle the hair contacts the string, where the bow contacts the strings, how straight its pulled, how much tension the hair is set at, etc, etc, etc....ALL these are very slight adjustments - its sort of the same with a pick - people try to lock in on ONE way to do something and yes, that will work to a point, and its a good start, but you are gonna have to let the sound/music/style determine a lot of the choice of how to play a piece - you are not gonna play Rawhide with the same grip/attack you pick Faded Love with.

TomTyrrell

Feb-13-2009, 1:44pm

Yeah, but I never swoop. My pick stays right down there at the strings. I don't lift it on either the down- or the upstroke, but I don't bring it to rest on the next string. I don't even how to try to make myself do it. The whole thing seems abnormal to me.

Why worry about it so much? Seems to me that you don't need to change anything so don't change anything.

And how is there an "attack angle" along with a "flat stroke?" To me "flat stroke" implies no angle, as in parallel to the strings.

Three dimensions. You need to pick 90 degrees across the strings ( -|-| not /|/| )AND with a flat stroke ( _._. not \./.). But if you pick parallel to the strings you won't get much sound.

I think I'll just go back to never having heard of a rest stroke.

Probably a good idea. It is hard to fix a problem you don't have.

Jim Broyles

Feb-13-2009, 2:58pm

I'm not worrying about it, but it strikes me as another one of those over-thought execution issues which tend to keep some of our members in a state of anxiety. To be honest, I can't make heads nor tails of:

Three dimensions. You need to pick 90 degrees across the strings ( -|-| not /|/| )AND with a flat stroke ( _._. not \./.). But if you pick parallel to the strings you won't get much sound.
I hold my pick parallel to the strings and I get plenty of sound.

TomTyrrell

Feb-14-2009, 6:18am

Jim, that's why it is so hard to describe. Words like "under", "across", "up", "down" and all the others mean different things to different people. "Down" seems so simple but does it mean towards the floor or towards the mandolin top?

If you think about throwing a ball or hitting a golf ball one thing that is always emphasized is "follow through". Since nothing you do after you release the ball or after the club makes contact with the ball can affect the ball's flight in any way "follow through" isn't something that really affects ball flight. The reason "follow through" is emphasized is to encourage people to not slow the stroke before contact.

When picking a mandolin string "follow through" is just as important as in throwing or hitting a ball. The player must avoid slowing the pick stroke until after the string is picked. For most people the logical way to "follow through" on the pick stroke would be to raise the pick in order to avoid hitting the next string. This will encourage a swooping stroke. If the player simply allows the next string to stop the pick stroke then there is no need to raise the pick and the swooping stroke won't happen. The result is more power transferred to both strings in the course and better sound.

As far as the parallel vs perpendicular thing. The pick stroke is perpendicular to the string and the pick itself should not slide along the string during the stroke.

Dfyngravity

Feb-14-2009, 6:51am

Jim, by no means was I implying that you do a swoop motion, apologies if that is that way you took it. It sounds to me like you already have solid picking technique.

Let me try to explain a little bit more by how it helps to keep your stroke to a minimum. First off, I don't mean that it only minimizes your stroke past the string you plucked, that is done more with control. But here is my argument. Basic physics says that every action has an equal but opposite reaction. So when you strike a string it strikes you back with equal force. To over come this a couple things have to happen. One, you can strike the string with enough force to literally break through the string, and occasionally this does happen. Or two, your wrist can hinge up as it is hinging down which allows the pick to glide up and over the string. To the naked eye, you really cannot see this motion. It simply looks as if your wrist is hinging down and you are playing though the string. But as you speed up, this motion can become more prevalent and lead to the "swoop" stroke. And in my mind this is that action you want to keep to a minimum. The "rest" stroke promotes a stroke with more force and one that keeps the pick close to the strings. So for me it keeps my entire right hand motion to a minimum.

This may all sound like it is being over analyzed, and to an extent it is, but I tend to think in technical terms. When I first started the mandolin as being classically trained. Classical training is all about technique and efficiency. I think about the pick stroke much like a classical guitarist thinks about their right hand "finger style". Where it is a natural tendency for your wrist to hinge away from the strings as your finger plucks the strings, they want their wrist and hand to remain still. It is obviously not the same as flatpicking, but I think the imagery.

Here is a video demonstrating this for those interested
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKb7ZRxKwew&feature=related

groveland

Feb-14-2009, 6:55am

If it's any consolation, I don't "get" the rest stroke. But I don't get that "swooping" thing either. On the other hand, that "swoop" is exactly how I was taught to practice a good picking stroke by an instructor of good reputation - He didn't use that word, but that's how I would describe what I saw. And what I actually do is neither of these.

This is one of those times where words fail and only a live sit-down lesson will do.

John McGann

Feb-14-2009, 9:18am

Unshameless commerce warning :whistling:

I talk about it a bit and show the idea in my Sound Fundamentals DVD (http://www.johnmcgann.com/books.html) as well as many other issues that are best seen rather than typed about...

TomTyrrell

Feb-14-2009, 9:35am

Jim Broyles

Feb-14-2009, 10:34am

Well, when I Googled it the first hit I got was a classical guitar demonstration and the rest stroke was an upward fingerpicking motion which began with the fingertip resting on the string.
As far as the parallel vs perpendicular thing. The pick stroke is perpendicular to the string and the pick itself should not slide along the string during the stroke.
What I was talking about was the orientation of the plane of the pick to the lines which are the strings. I do not rotate the pick nor do I angle the neck so that the non-rotated pick is automatically angled to the strings. This is why a beveled pick doesn't work for me.

Philphool

Feb-14-2009, 11:21am

I wonder if some of you guys don't "see" the rest stroke concept (or care about it) because you've already got a pretty good technique. And I agree with that position.

However, a year or so ago when I was making a big push to get from beginner to intermediate level (whatever that means), I was trying to learn some tunes like Blackberry Blossom & such and was having a hard time. I was MISSING notes (probably because I was trying to play faster than I was ready to) and when I did hit many of the notes, they sounded pretty thin.

I came across this rest stroke concept on SOME forum or discussion group and the web and the concept really clicked. My technique improved pretty steeply (for a while) when I concentrated on picking through the string to the next string.

Do I now try to REST on the next string every time I play a note? Of course not. But the technique DID help me move from a low plateau of poor technique to a higher plateau (of poor technique :crying: ).

I found it helpful but not stifling. If you don't need it at your present level, I wouldn't sweat it.

John McGann

Feb-14-2009, 2:54pm

One final (I hope) observation... If the rest stroke was a common thing it wouldn't be so closely associated with one genre of music (Gypsy Jazz) and there wouldn't be so many people who have never heard of it.

No reason you couldn't go your entire life without ever knowing or caring about the rest stroke.

...Unless you like to play classical or classic bluegrass or old school acoustic jazz (not just Gypsy style but swing players from Eddie Lang through Charlie Christian)- rest strokes are pretty commonly used, to great effect, if you dig into the roots of these styles.

I wasn't hip to them outside of classical guitar until about 8 years ago, and they have really made a difference in my sound FWIW.

groveland

Feb-14-2009, 7:16pm

A while back someone posted these videos at a Mike Keyes mandolinsessions page. Peter O is showing how to pick through a string and stop at the next. He says applying this exercise is guaranteed to make you a 100% better player. It sure looks like a potential rest stroke to me: This Page, 3 short movies, the 2nd and 3rd ones particularly. (http://www.mandolinsessions.com/apr08/Keyes.html) Note the 'bounced' motion he talks about on the 3rd one - That's what I thought we were calling 'swoop'.

40bpm

Feb-15-2009, 11:09am

Last night I tried doing the rest stroke only on downstrokes - I had previously been using it both directions. Much easier to do on the down strokes only - Thanks Mr. McGann.

I learned about the rest stroke many years ago from a classical guitarist and I figured it might be useful on all plucked stringed instruments. I also play 3-finger banjo (don't tell!) and when I begin my practice session, I set the metronome at - you guessed it - 40bpm and play my rolls very slowly and quietly using the rest stroke. It sure gets your picking fingers in the right mood.

Thanks again to all who contributed or read this post.

Jan

ald

Mar-09-2009, 1:27pm

After reading this section, I've been working on rest strokes (up and down) for the last week or so and have noticed quite a bit of an improvement in my playing (never really thought they were too important before). Does anybody have any ideas of a daily exercise regime I could use? I've been imagining the up and down strokes as a bit like flicking a tiddliwink which seems to have the desired effect. Am I going in the wrong direction on this score? All suggestions welcome.

ald

Mar-09-2009, 3:16pm

SGraham

Mar-09-2009, 7:40pm

Jan,
I took some lessons with Evan Marshall several years ago to get my horrible right-hand technique cleaned up. I had a very inefficient pick stroke--wobbling all over the place. The first thing Evan did was to get me using the rest stroke. He really stressed the follow through of the stroke as well. Like John said, the rest stroke wasn't used on the upstroke. As far as speed is concerned, Evan was using it cleanly and effectively at speeds I consider fast. Way beyond my speed limit anyway.

40bpm

Mar-10-2009, 9:41am

Thanks SGraham - I continue to practice the rest stroke with my metronome and it has really helped me get good clean tone - especially on double-stops and tremolo. It certainly promotes the "follow-thru". However, when I just want to play I don't think about it very much.

I also practice the rest stroke on my banjo in both Scruggs style and clawhammer. It really helps my fingerpicking/downstroke accuracy.

Jan