Tru-Oil vs Deft vs Shellac?

[Tim Saxton]

I am a newbie. I have never put a finish on any thing wood that did not constist of gasoline and a match. I have a mandolin project that is nearing completion and it is getting close to finish time. I decided to go with a water based anailine dye(sp?)to stain. The problem is what to finish with after that. Also, I have no spray equipment and very little space to work in.

Tru-Oil:
This seems like a very good way to go. From the info I have gathered on LMI and the Luthier's Forum. The info lends me to think that for a rank rookie this suff might work well.

Shellac:
Bulls Eye brand from Lowes. Seems like a little more work to either brush on or use the aerosol cans. This spray can seems to have a poor quality tip.

Deft:
I like this idea. What really works for me is that you can get the aerosol in satin, semi-gloss, or full gloss. I liked the spray tip on the can. I was able to test spray it in the store and it seemed to have a good pattern with no blobing etc.

What I am looking for is some experianced builders input on what will be the better way to go for a fella like myself.

Thanks in advance. I owe Scott T. and the other cafe members a tip of the hat and a debt of gratitude for the amount of knoweldge that I have been able to gleen here.

Tim Saxton

[Chris Baird]

I believe you can purchase some good "nitro in a can" from Stewmac.com. I'm not sure what it is really called but look under the lacquer section. If you want an oil finish the tung oil will work well and is easy to apply. I would opt for nitro-cellulose over deft.

[sunburst]

I'd stay away from Bullseye shellac. In order to have good quality shellac, it has to be mixed fresh. Once it's mixed, the shelf life is pretty limited, so in order to sell liquid shellac they put something in there to help preserve it.
If you get shellac in the dry form (flakes, granules, whatever) and mix it with "pure grain" alcohol rather than denatured, you have the advantage of having a non-toxic finish.

Tru-oil can give you good results without special equipment

Deft can be brushed on, level sanded and buffed to a good finish, but you have to be careful to keep dust out of it because it dries slowly compared to regular ol' nitro.
Spray cans will work too, more waste and more expensive.

[Bill Snyder]

I have used both brushable Deft and Deft in spray cans on cabinets and for touch-ups. Dries very quickly, nice finish. I have read postings elsewhere that it is not as good as nitro for instruments - has to do with long term flexbility.
As to using premixed shellac see Frank Ford's comments (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/ProductReviews/Materials/Zinsser/zinsser.html).
I used this with some added tint on my first instrument. Not really so difficult. I would not shy away from shellac, although next time I might mix my own.
I would have used Tru-oil, but the local gun shop was out of it when I went in to purchase some. I think it must be similar to working with tung oil which I like for other wood working projects.

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

Tru-oil takes forever to really set up hard. Tru-oil is a polyurethane/oil mix.

Deft is nitro laquer. And its not too bad. Its got some additives that help it flow out and dry just a little more slowly than pure nitro laquer. It still is dry to the touch in 15 minutes or so (reasonable coat thicknesses). Fills grain well, dries to sandable in 2 hours. Still takes a few weeks to get to its most durable state... its laquer. Deft comes in gloss, satin and matte (dunno if they call it satin and matte, but its shiney, sorta shiney, and dull). They say its non-yellowing, but they also say its an interior use product. UV light will yellow laquer, thats just the way it is.

The dull finish can be buffed up to a semi-shiney finish (and to shiney with more effort). The spray Deft is good stuff.

One thing you can do if you're spraying laquer is go get one of those reusable self contained spray rigs. The one I've got is called SureShot. You fill it, pump it up with regular compressed air (bike pump will do) and spray. Its not good for laquer, but is GREAT for laquer thinner! If you're using something like Deft, you can spray or brush on the Deft and then spray thinner over it in a fine mist. That fine mist will knock the surface imperfections down and give you a babys butt smooth finsish on the later coats. Deft needs a good six spray coats to fully fill grain and give a resonably durable finish. But.. I have no idea how Deft holds up with wear on teh neck and upper edge of the body.

Shellac... I cant comment on.

[Jim Rowland]

I've used good ole Deft on guitars snd mandos for around thirty years. The spray stuff is easiest. I still have an archtop guitar which I completed around l6 years ago and it has held up fine. Bandersnatch is right about the number of coats to level grain. I sometimes go for seven or eight,sanding the bulk of the buildup off,of course. Deft has some harmful ingredients so use a mask,even if brushing it on. I inhaled way too much of it before I got an explosion proof fan,and even now I mask up before shooting. If you have spray equipment, the Stew Mac liquid dyes are totally miscible with Deft,and if you buy it by the quart or gallon,you can't beat the price.

Jim

[timeoutlaw59]

This whole finishing thing sometimes can get a little tricky.My question would be is there a good book that discribes the correct way to do all these diffrent finishes? in a step by step process?

[oldwave maker]

That benedetto book has the path of least resistance for lacquer spraying....
Tim- I have tru-oil on my personal instruments, unstained natural except for a half matchhead of windsor-newton indian summer yellow oilpaint in a thimble of tru-oil as an aging toner on that bright white engelmann....
with an already waterstained mando Id use a can of spray something so as not to disturb the sunburst- deft (especially the semigloss)is the easiest, quickest build, email don paine of pomeroy mandos, Im sure he'd share his tips, just buy an extra can to experiment with first on scrap.
good luck!

[thistle3585]

From experience, make sure you shake the aerosol can of Deft well before application. I once shot some and more accelerant came out, than lacquer, and it melted the finish I had already put down on that area. It was a real mess to fix. I will start spraying then move across the surface and not stop spraying until I am off the surface on the other side.

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

Grow....

Do you find that Deft is more "blush" resistant that other laquer finishes?

I sprayed that ebony pickguard I just built on a humid Florida nearly rainy day... and it suddenly occurred to me... ooops. The thing blushed out terribly. I ran it inside into the A/C space, and it never showed a trace of any trapped moisture when dry.

I've never had a blush problem with Deft... but was wondering what your experience can add to this!!

[sunburst]

Here in VA I tend to add a lot of retarder to my lacquer because of humidity. Enough retarder and you've got something that acts a lot like Deft.

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

Its funny though that Deft really doesn't take much longer to dry. They gotta have a secret formula.

[Jim Rowland]

My experience runs parallel to yours,Bander. I used to paint in the back yard in nice weather and several times became alarmed at what appeared to be a serious blushing problem. The first time it happened,I hung the guitar and rushed to the house to research blush removal techniques. I couldn't find much help in my books,so I trudged back to the shop to assess the damage,and behold..the blush was gone. On one instrument,a slight blush remained,but disappeared with a light sanding which I assume released the remaining moisture.
Jim

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

Nice to know. Thanks!

[sunburst]

If you do get a blush that stays around, IBIB (isobutyl isobutyrate) or butyl cellosolve(sp?) will usually get rid of it. All you have to do is mist it on, don't spray a heavy coat, and it will re-dissolve the lacquer and remove the blush.
I did this once on a mandolin that had been finished and buffed but still showed a slight blush.

[Tim Saxton]

I am real thankful for all the responses I have got from you all. Thanks alot!

I am confused on what "Blushing" is. Can some give a desctption of this?

It seems Deft makes the most sense to me. I think I will go with a semi-gloss finish in spray cans.

Should I use their sanding lacquer sealer after the analine dyes are put on? The finish up with the semi-gloss finish?

Can anyone give any other directions or things to look out for?


Thanks

Tim Saxton

[sunburst]

A blush is when lacquer gets cloudy, usually due to humidity.
As the solvents evaporate, you get evaporative cooling of the surface. The faster the solvents evaporate, the cooler the surface gets. If the relative humidity is high enough, and the surface is cool enough, it will "fog up" with condensation like your glasses when you go out in the humidity from air conditioning or like a cold beer from the refrigerator.
A retarder added to the lacquer slows down the drying, keeps it from getting as cool, and helps prevent blush.
Deft uses slow evaporating solvents for more flow-out and smoother coats, and therefore is less likely to blush.

As for sanding sealer, You can probably get by without it, but I'd go ahead and use it. It should sand real easy and get your finish started building without too much effort.

Spray your first coat of sealer thin and dry. That way you reduced the risk of bleeding your stains onto your bindings or anywhere else.

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

Blush is a milky haze that occurs in laquers when they are used in humid conditions. The laquer traps some moisture in itself, and hence the blush. I'm thinking Deft is pretty good with this, as the very dark ebony did in fact blush with a thicker applications done outside (and it was real muggy damp out), BUT the blush went away upon drying in a low humidity place (inside, AC on).

You could use sanding sealer, but no need really. The Deft will act as its own sealer. You'll still want to get a few extra coats on, so its no big deal really.

Watch out for dust, bugs, etc. Be sure to give a full 2 hours between coats (on Deft). Leave even more time if you're gonna buff it out (like a solid week or more).

[amowry]

Tim- I've been out of town and just saw this thread, but the mando of mine that you played at Greg Boyd's booth is finished with Tru-Oil. It has some drawbacks, but I would recommend it. It's actually mostly polymerized linseed oil, and as such it's not terribly hard and scratches easily. However, it's pretty easy to apply, as long as you think lots and lots of very thin coats. It can be polished after about two weeks, although longer is better, and it will shrink and harden for months. I just wipe it on with a small piece of cloth, wet sanding occasionally, then polish with MicroMesh and fine automotive compounds. The one real trick is sanding/polishing without going through, because it will be VERY thin. There's an abundance of info about it at mimf.com.

[Yonkle]

Here is a good example of (Blush) my first two mandos were sprayed with StewMAcs lacquer, my 3rd with Deft (in the can). Look at the neck right above the button of the back and you can see the "milky" look on the two mandos on the left. The 3rd (right) used Deft, very clean, no blush, and it drys quick too. JD