Celtic or Not?

[mcashion]

I got into a discussion the other day with our choirmaster, who is putting on a "Celtic Fling" at the church with harps, penny whistles and singers. He insisted that the mandolin was m "Italian" instrument, not a Celtic instrument and would not be correct in a Celtic program. I say, first of all, that is bunk, and second of all, how authentic does a program have to be at a small church fundraiser? Opinions please. BTW, he doesn't know if I stink or am a master musician, having never heard me play.

[Steve L]

He sounds like a half-wit. I think life is way too short to spend trying to play music with half-wits. You may be lucky to be uninvolved.

[mcashion]

I am beginning to agree. Just talked to one of the singers..they are now having to make their own costumes, practice every Sunday for hours, pay $25 to attend (and sing for free). Several have already quit and the whole thing may collapse like a house of cards. Instead, I am going to play at the pot luck dinner with a guitarist and we are going to "John Denver" them senseless. I will, of course, use my "period-correct" mandolin of modern vintage, not the 1913 Gibson. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mad dawg]

Will your choirmaster be at the potluck? If so, you should play a few Irish and Scottish sets as well (with your incorrect instruments) to show him how its done!

[Steve L]

I think the pot-luck will be a lot more fun...particularly if you take Mad Dawg's excellent suggestion! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[jim_n_virginia]

Your choirmaster dude is wrong!

No course there were no Gibson mandolins playing Irish music 75 years ago but the mandocello which also known as the octave mandolin and is similar to what is known as the Irish bouzouki - a much modified version of the Greek bouzouki, was introduced to Irish music by Johnny Moynihan, in his Sweeney's men days in the late sixties, and now almost a standard in Irish groups today.

And with the bouzouki and mandolin being in the same family and all the fiddle music in almost every Celtic song it was only a natural progression that the modern mandolin (usually flat oval hole)would be used extensively in Celtic music.

I have been going to Celtic jam Sessiuns' ever since I discovered Celtic music (5 years ago) and there is almost always a mandolin there.

But then again your choirmaster sounds like he forgot why he is putting on the music in the first place. Is it to glorify himself as a talented choirmaster? Or is it to glorify HIM our talented everything master?

[yoods]

"I have been going to Celtic jam Sessiuns' ever since I discovered Celtic music (5 years ago) and there is almost always a mandolin there."
Jim-in-VA


Jim what weeky or monthly Sessiuns' do you know of in Virginia?

[Paul Kotapish]

Marie,

Strictly speaking, your choirmaster might be correct, but his head and heart seem to be improperly aligned.

First of all, the term "Celtic music" is so broad that it has very little meaning. Most folks who play "Celtic" music really play mostly Irish tunes with a few Scottish and New England or Cape Breton tunes in the mix. It's a rare seissun that includes an equal mix of an dros, gavottes, and strathspeys with the jigs, reels, and hornpipes.

But the broad Celtic repertoire would have to include the music of Gallicia in Spain, Brittany in (or next to, depending on how you look at it) France, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, the Maritime Provinces, and lots of rural America. As such, a "Celtic Fling" could be interpreted as including a rather large chunk of the western world's music and a lot of surprising instruments.

Second, in most traditions, the range of instruments that have been accepted is quite broad. The mandolin is among the most recent of johnny-come-lately instruments in most of the Celtic traditions, but after 35 years of prominent mandolin in seminal groups such as Planxty, the mandolin is hardly an interloper at this point.

A number of hard-core traditionalists accept only the harp, flute, pipes, and fiddle as appropriate instruments for playing traditional music. Diatonic accordions might be acceptible in a pinch, but fretted instruments are out altogether. There is a passionate and generally rational debate about this, but strict constructionists are rare, and every musical tradition has its staunch defenders. There are plenty of folks who think that the mandolin and guitar are only marginally acceptible in old-time Appalachian music, for example.

I've spent a good part of the last 30 years or so playing at playing traditional Irish music, and I've had the good fortune to perform with and record with some of my musical heros. At some point, though, I realized that no matter how much I tried, I would never truly play Irish music. My mandolin and guitar might be acceptible in a band or at a seissun, but they would always be extrinsic to the core traditonal instruments, and I would always play with a pronounced American accent. I've accepted that and play for my own pleasure. And I try my best to keep my ears sensitive for a musical gathering where folks are trying for an older, more truly traditional sound, and am happy to stay out of the way without getting my feelings hurt.

One of the truly odd aspects of fretted instruments playing traditional Irish or Scottish music is that there are a raft of solo fingerstyle guitarists who play "Celtic" music on the guitar without ever having spent time listening to fiddles, pipes, or flutes. A huge part of the repertoire seems to have been lifted from sheet music transcriptions of O'Carolan tunes and a select handful of jigs and reels, but most of the guitarists seem to learn their stuff from other guitarists.

It is true that one probably can't really learn traditional Irish or Scottish or Gallician music by listening to just mandolins or guitars, but that doesn't mean that mandoins and guitars do not have a place in contemporary ensembles playing traditional music.

In any case, it's rarely worth the effort of trying to play with anyone who hasn't welcomed you into the circle with open arms, so consider yourself lucky to have another way to contribute to the event, and blast out a few blistering five-part reels and toss in a slip jig or two while you're at it.

And have fun.

PK

[mad dawg]

Hey Paul, I live in Oakland and have been meaning to check out one of your gigs. What do you have coming up?

[Steve L]

A great post from Mr. Kotapish!!

[Jim M.]

Here's Wake the Dead's schedule. You've got to hear them Maddawg, they are great: http://www.wakethedead.org/events.html

[mcashion]

Thanks to all of you for your support. Since a particular time period for the "Fling" was not established, I never dreamed that I would be excluded. I think my whole shock was that in a small church, of which I have been a member for 20 years, I never expected the response. Several people have pointed to one particularly strong choir member as the probable culprit. The remainder of the choir is ready to throttle her. Anyway, I am moving on. The potluck on on a different night, and will probably have a larger turn-out, since it involved free food.

Sidebar: this little church was built entirely by parishioners hands including the wiring, sheetrock, etc. The altar is handcrafted out of furniture oak and was built by my husband, handstained and finished by me and constructed entirely in our garage. My son was the first baptism in the new sanctuary. I think that is why the "uppityness" of the comment so took me back. It just isn't the way we have always been. I hope it is not the trend of the future, or I shall be seeking a parish where the values are more focused on sharing our gifts, however meager, rather than judging the value of gift before accepting it.

[dave]

Hey Marie,
maybe it's time for separation of church and music.
Dave.

[jim_n_virginia]

"I have been going to Celtic jam Sessiuns' ever since I discovered Celtic music (5 years ago) and there is almost always a mandolin there."
Jim-in-VA


Jim what weeky or monthly Sessiuns' do you know of in Virginia?
Dave there is an excellent jam at an Irish pub in Va. Beach called the White Horse Pub. I went last night and had a lot of fun! Musicians ranged from novice to excellent pickers and fiddlers and everyone is super friendly. Starts about 8pm every Wednesday nite.

I used to go to the White Horse a year or so ago but started going to another closer to my house in Norfolk, but unfortunately the owner of the resturaunt decide to try other entertainment.

I went last night and had a lot of fun. I also used to go to one in Frankin, VA but at 45 min drive it was bit too far. They met at a house and it was fun. There was a PA, mics and a lot of food. I forget the address but I could find out if you want.

Come on down to the White Horse. It is sponsored I think by the Friend of Folk Music and while there is mostly Celtic music there is also just enough of a blend of bluegrass, old time and folk music to keep it interesting.

Heck I even met a banjo player there last night! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Winks]

Where is the pastor in all this? I ask simply because I am a Lutheran pastor and no way does anything like that take place. What is done in church is to God's glory and is not exclusive but inclusive. Shame on the Choirmaster.
Winks http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mcashion]

The pastor or "rector" in this case (Anglican) is probably out playing golf. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mandodebbie]

I've been a Presbyterian since my father became a minister of that church when I was 7. The Scots play more than just bag-pipes and drums. I agree with the Lutherin. Play what- ever glorifies God. Besides, I saw a celtic duo ( I forgot their names )at a Sci-Fi Convention of all things where one played a 12 string guitar and the other a traditional Irish 10 stringed mandolin-type instrument called a citron. So there. Your choirmaster sounds like a moron.:O

[Martin Jonas]

Besides, I saw a celtic duo ( I forgot their names )at a Sci-Fi Convention of all things where one played a 12 string guitar and the other a traditional Irish 10 stringed mandolin-type instrument called a citron.
Cittern, I'd presume, though I love your lemon-y spelling. Not too traditional either -- the comments made by Paul earlier in this thread apply to citterns as much as to any other fretted instrument. Still, Irish music over the past century-and-a-bit has been extremely adept at adopting any affordable instrument that comes around to its need. Witness the way in which the humble concertina (originally invented by a British physicist, Whetstone, and then popularised by a German mass producer, Hohner) became a "traditional" Irish instrument with no obvious lineage or legitimacy at all, except that the two-tone lilt of the Anglo-German system lends itself perfectly to the bounce of Irish dancing. Instrumentation is malleable, but the touch and feel of the music always wins through.

Martin

[Kirby161]

The mandolin is though to have originated in ancient Greece and spread to the Roman empire through Greek imigrants. This makes the mandolin an originally mediterraniean instrument. However there is something about the roman empire to be taken into mind; they owned everything, and with that they brought their culture.

The romans were heavily embedded in what is today Britian and Whales. They never went to Ireland but god knows that the English did and they brought what they had. When the Irish got a hold of the mando it had evolved much after going through the hands of the greeks, romans, and then british. The Irish then evolved it more into things like the zouk. This makes the mando an irish instrument, as well as english, italian, greek, russian, german, brazilian, and even American. Every culture has their hands on it and every culture made it different in their own way; be they irish, italian, russian, or american.
I would conclude to say that your choirmaster is right about it being italian, but you are right about it being irish. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif