New Gibson Master Models

[MandoFando]

I had the opportunity to play 3 of the new Gibson Master Models this weekend. #Those are some great new instruments. #All three of them sounded great. #The only concern that I had with them was the set up. #Each one had to have the bridge very high to get the strings off of the fingerboard. #I have don't know how those bridges can adjust but I would imagine the they would not go much higher. #On the oldest of the three - I think 2001 - the top was starting to show some sinking, and maybe some slight signs on the next to oldest one of sinking. #My question is: #If the new master models are supposed to be the next Loar's and the tops are sinking on the 3 year old model's, how are we going to know how good they will be if they all fall apart??

[Scotti Adams]

.Ive played quite a few MM's and have not noticed the high bridge or the tops sinking......something is fishy here...Im sure alot of MM owners will chime in here as well as Charlie D. and Big Joe.....Hey Jeremy..pass the popcorn please..

[Dru Lee Parsec]

I played a master model F9 at First Quality Music in Louiseville Ky and I was ready to sell my kids to get it. But then I realized I didn't have any kids so I had to put it back up on the wall. (Hmmm. maybe I should simultainiously clean my garage and start an Ebay business to raise some money.)

Now, this isn't one of Big Joe's hand made only-a-dozen-or-so-per-year master models (they did have 2 of those at FQMS as well) But the label inside did say "Master Model". It's the 2nd mandolin from the bottom on this page. (http://www.fqms.com/Static/gibson_mandolins.cfm) Oh My Gosh that was one fine mandolin!

[Gail Hester]

MandoFando, let me guess...you work for Weber? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MandoFando]

Yes, I created myself an account to post this thread. I was curious to see what everyone had to say. I read here all the time, but have never posted. You guys really give the newbies hell.

[mandoJeremy]

Here you go Scotti and I will even throw in a giant Snickers bar!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mandobar]

mayday, mayday, everyone from street!!!!

[John Flynn]

You guys really give the newbies hell.
It's not really reserved for the newbies, everyone gets (and gives) thier share here.

If anyone would still like to deal with the original question, rather than tittering about how the Gibson Police will react, I would also like to hear the answers. To be fair, I have seen the same bridge height problem on some other makes, including a new Rigel G-110. I always guessed it was a factory defect in neck angle rather than a sinking top. I always wondered what causes that, why the manufacturers in question let it go out the door and what the downsides might be of purchasing an instrument in that condition.

[jmkatcher]

I've noticed that the bridge on my Rigel G-110 seems to require a relatively high setting. It seems like that this is more a characteristic of the design (CT-110s are the same way) than a defect in neck angle. I would appreciate some other data points, though.

[Scotti Adams]

..I cant for one moment believe that the tops are sinking or the neck set is defective on these mandos you speak of..to hear Joe and others from Gibson talk..they will literally saw a mando in two if it doesnt make the grade....All builders dont use the same #neck set angle...hell..mine is 7/8" high..other things have to be taken in consideration as to how high the bridge may be...like for instance. how thick the bridge base is...mine has been sanded and fitted to where it makes contact all the way across...not with a gap in the middle. As far as catching hell...Ive caught my fair share of it and Im closing in on 3000 posts....man..I need a life http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Im siding with the fine folks at Gibson on this one.

[Charlie Derrington]

Who knows?

What is too high?

I haven't seen the mandos in question, but if the owners have a problem, I would imagine they'd contact us and then they'll get it fixed for free or a brand new Master.

Nuff said?

Charlie

[Scotti Adams]

..nuff said..

Except that was a cheap shot at Weber up there too...

[added comment] Now that there is a smiley by the comment, I'll withdraw my objection...

[Gail Hester]

Whoa, hold on. Don’t start something, no cheap shot at Weber; I love all those folks at Sound To Earth, great instruments and fine people. The big smiley face denotes a joke.

Yeah no way I believe 3 Master tops are sinking. Somethings up

[MandoFando]

well, i know with violins, there is a set angle and measurement from the top to the fingerboard that is the standard placement. Is there anything like this for the mandolin? are there any reasons why the neck angle should not be too high or to low?? is there an optimum angle that minimizes tension (for relief from the top and ease of playibility) and that maximizes tone production?? i am curious, because these three mandolins had a much higher neck angle than any new fern that i have played.

Charlie i would appreciate your input again. thanks for your previous reply.

[MandoFando]

i never said that they were all sinking, i said one was, and the other two had a very high bridge. i was just asking why was the neck angle so far back?? and i want to know if a high neck angle can contribute to top depression, which i was just SPECULATING might have been the cause of the MM with the sinking top. I don't know - this is why i posted. i want the opinion of a professional.

[rose#1]

this is a jig to set neck angles made for me by Buddy Davis

[mandoman4807]

The saddle is a Little high on my mando, but that is because Dave Harvey at Gibson`s Valley Arts Center sanded the bridge to get a perfect fitment to the top. #I would say, that the saddle on my Master, is about half way through it`s total travel. The string hight at the 12th fret is 4/64ths on the G, and 3/64ths on the E. (where I like it)
I would think that if I wanted a higher action I would be in trouble. The solution would be to get a new bridge.


Darrell

[chris]

Here is a tall boy saddle on left, works great when there is too much of the posts showing.

[mandoman4807]

Chris,

Where can the tall boy be purchased?


Darrell

[chris]

cumberland acoustic.

[Big Joe]

The neck angle is set where we want it. There is no problem with the tops or neck angles. Many players like higher action and it can give more power to the instrument. The key is to have the action high enough to get the best tone while still retaining great playability and intonation. You can do that with the Master Model. I have yet to see one returned for such a problem and have never had an e-mail or call about such. Maybe you are used to a different model that would have a different neck angle. One of the things I see often on smaller makers is a low neck angle. Whether intentional or not I do not know. Different strokes for different folks. We like good neck angle.

The othere issue is set up. Depending upon the truss rod adjustment, nut cut, type of saddle, fret wear and strings can all affect how high or low the bridge may need to be. I would suggest you keep trying them and playing them. You will be hooked before long and need one for yourself http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[Chris Baird]

As a builder I aim for a certain breakover angle at the bridge. The main variables that I have to work with are neck angle, height that the neck sits in the body, and bridge height. There are other possible variables but those three are the easiest to change. The neck angle is largely an adjustment for action and has a much lesser effect on breakover angle compared to the height that the neck sits in the body. It is possible to have an ideal bridge height and breakover angle with a low action. One just has to adjust all the variables properly when building. There are a good many bluegrass pickers who like higher actions and for them a Gibson works well.

[Luthier Vandross]

Anyone can build the world's loudest mandolin by setting a deep angle, you just have to use a nice thick top under all that pressure.


M

[GTison]

I'D BET 15 dollars that those 2 saddle tops shown above sound very different.
Charlie Or Joe what was the bridge height of Loar mandolins? Or does that mean neck angle?

Neck set...On My old 84 KM1000 the neck is set very high in the body of the mando. And the bridge is also pretty high maybe this is why it is so loud as mentioned by luthierV.

Since "all" the F model Gibsons are set to the same specifications. Why is there variance in bridge height from one mando to another? (because there is variance)

[Scotti Adams]

..check out my bridge height..although its up there its very easy to play..the combo of the bridge being sanded down and the top not having such a pronounced arch as some models is the reasoning for this..

[Big Joe]

well, let's see. There are several reasons. One that is not true is that our tops are too thick. The thickness is exactly the same as the loars. The bridge height can depend upon the size of the base after being fit to the top, the size of the saddle, and the neck angle. All of these are hand operations that will have a very slight variance. Couple that with each players desire for a different string height and string tension and you get very different looking set ups. I like mine one way, Charlie another, Danny Roberts another, Dave Harvery another. Which is right? Mine is. For me. Theirs is for them.

One of the reasons our mandolins all have their own voice within the loar spectrum of sounds is each piece of wood is different and repsonds to pressure differently from the others. They are all hand made and will have slight differences in some areas that make each one individual and exciting. It's not like some products where each is made by machine and each sounds alike. We don't think that is the best way to make a product. That is why some are slightly different from others.

[Dave Cohen]

I built some mandolins early on w/ about a 7 degree neck angle. They were loud, but felt awkward to play. Later, I replaced the neck on one of them w/ a neck set at the conventional 4.6 degrees. ( I chose to replace the neck rather than just reset it because of some of the details of the original high-angle neck set.) With the new neck, the mandolin suffered no apparent loss of acoustic volume, i.e., it seemed to be just a loud as it was with the original high-angle neck.

The above experiment was a data point in support of what I was then beginning to think about neck angles. A sharper break angle of the strings over the bridge saddle does result in a greater STATIC down force on the top plate, but that is not what drives the soundboard when the instrument is played. The soundboard vibrates in response to the dynamic forces applied to it when the bridge moves (in turn) from the impulsive forces applied by the strings. The magnitude of those dynamic forces is small compared to the magnitude of the static down force. I suspect now that there is little to be gained from a severe neck angle, and whatever is gained is offset (for me at least) by the awkwardness of playing the thing.

[Big Joe]

I agree with Dave. From many years of experimenting myself I have discovered that on a good instrument a high or low neck angle does not affect volume as much as other factors. I should say unless the neck angle is so low that the bridge cannot work properly. I have also seen action not affecting volume that much. Too high an action can make an instrument intonate poorly compared to a lower action (depending upon set up) but volume is not directly related to high action as much as how the top is driven. String guage can make a difference, as can bridge height.

Using strings too heavy or too light will decrease tone but may not affect volume. As to action, rarely does a lower action have better tone than a higher action and the same is true in reverse. The string height from the fingerboard is a really personal decision and volume and tone are not that highly affected in any significant way.

[Chris Baird]

It is my belief that altering the static force on the top plate changes the modal properties. I don't have any equipment to test this hypothesis but it seems very likely to me. I have experienced, and I'll bet there are many who will back me, in saying that a change in bridge height makes a difference in how the mandolin sounds. It is my design concept to use neck angle only as a modifier for action and to use the height of the neck in the body to adjust then for my projected ideal bridge height and breakover angle. A 1 degree difference makes very little change in breakover angle but makes a world of difference in string action. It makes little difference to the breakover because I can adjust the height that the neck sits in the body. I wouldn't go over 6 degrees for a neck angle. 4.5 is for a high action, 5-5.5 is for medium to medium low, and 6 is for those who like the lowest action and don't intend to ever bring it up. I'm not saying breakover anlge is the secret to a great mandolin but I do believe it is an important factor to consider and be aware of in every mandolin one builds.

[Darryl Wolfe]

OK, I haven't read every post here...but, I've reffited my bridges to 3 Master Models. In every case, the original bridge halfs were high to get to get the correct action. This is not anything to do with the neck angle. The neck angle on Master Models is "Loar" correct. The difference is that the neck is not set as deeply into the body as a Loar. i.e the fingerboard is a good 1/16" higher out of the body. This is evedent if you look at relationship between the fingerboard binding and the scroll center button. nuff said

dgw

[Charlie Derrington]

As an average, Darryl, you are right.

However, I was very careful to exactly match the neck-set specs to 81250.

Some Loars are high, some Loars are low, and I'll be in Scotland before you.

Charlie

[evanreilly]

Speaking of Loars, here are a couple of good old boys playing a tune they called "The Lloyd Loar"; I think that fellow on the far left liked the tune a lot...<G>

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

And that "college boy" on the left hasn't gotten any better looking with age either! <G>

(Couldn't resist Charlie!)
Dude

[Charlie Derrington]

You know, that was one strange day.

Mon gets his mando back, Chet stops by........photo-op.

What's really weird is Mon decided to play "Wheelhoss", with no warning to Chet, and Chet didn't know the chords. So here I am, a nobody, whispering in Chet's ear..." G, F, G, F, etc.", with TV cameras running.

Makes a fella feel odd.

Charlie

BTW....

Yeah, Lynn. You're such a funny guy. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[chris]

Bowfinger, You are correct that the 2 saddles do give a differnt sound. The mando I tried them on gained a little more bass response with the taller saddle

[Scotti Adams]

..Charlie...some guys have all the luck http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Charlie...some guys have all the luck

You mean some guys get to work at Gibson? #Yeah, I'd have to agree. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Big Joe]

Hmmm...let me think about that one....:) . Really, we are truly blessed to be where we are doing what we get to do and they actually pay us to do this!!! Hard to believe some days http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Rob Powell]

Big Joe,

I think we are the lucky ones, the members of this site. We can get the advice and opinions of world class luthiers, suppliers and dealers. I won't mention names because the list is too long and I wouldn't want to offend anyone by omission but the level of participation is astounding.

I wish I was in a position to pay the entire cost of this site but I'm not. Hats off and a big ringing chop on a 1923 Loar to Scott for providing this forum!

--Rob

[troika]

I've noticed the "foot depression" on the master models too. One has an actual flat spot under the feet of the bridge running across the top plate to the neck. It "appears" as though the top may be sinking, although it may have stabilized. Is this common in loars?

what your probably seeing is the depression thru the varnish to the wood not top sinkage

[Philip Halcomb]

Hi All,

First off Charlie I must say that was some miraculous work you did on Big Mon's mandolin. Just to add to the thread and to not get too scientific about it. I found a great formula for playability and tone that works for me and may work for some others too. That if you go to the auto parts store and buy a set of feeler gauges. As long as your truss-rod is set properly, set the treble side of your bridge to .065 inches off the 17th fret measuring the distance between the fret and the E string. Then set your bass side measuring from the top of the fret to the bottom of the G string to .075 inches. That gives my Gibson F-5 and amazing tone and easy playability which is commented by just about everyone who plays it. I found that no matter how high or how low, if you maintain that .010 difference between the bass and treble sides the instrument plays really well. Hope that makes sense...

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