Yo Yo and company faked it

[Rick Schmidlin]

It is reported that they did not perform live:

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/01/23/yo-yo-ma-and-itzhak-perlman-to-join-milli-vanilli/

[MikeEdgerton]

Old news. We've already had one locked down thread that started about this. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47391&highlight=obama)

[santjo24]

I would never take my violin out in weather like that. I get scared enough when I take it outside in cold weather with a case.

[woodwizard]

It is reported that they did not perform live:

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/01/23/yo-yo-ma-and-itzhak-perlman-to-join-milli-vanilli/

Well ... that sure answered a lot of questions on another related thread. I don't think they could have pulled it off any other way in that really cold temp.

[jim_n_virginia]

yeah it was too cold to play... they taped that segment just in case and as it turned out they had to use it. Everyone knows they are all great platers and could have played it if it was warm enough so I don't think it will be that big of a deal.

[woodwizard]

yeah it was too cold to play... they taped that segment just in case and as it turned out they had to use it. Everyone knows they are all great platers and could have played it if it was warm enough so I don't think it will be that big of a deal.

Absolutely!

[Kevin K]

Yep, they have the goods. I was just curious of how they got that kind of sound in the environment they were in, now I know.

[Keith Erickson]

My reply was I couldn't believe that Yo Yo Ma would have taken a Stradivarius out into the cold. If he used a "cheap" cello with a recording behind it to pull this off then it does make sense. Just speculating on my part. I don't know :confused:

...but we do know this for sure, that it was a recording.

I might as well go to bed :sleepy:

....because it probably won't be long after taking out the popcorn bag full of Cheerios :popcorn: that this thread will probably suffer the same fate as the previous thread.

[Keith Erickson]

yeah it was too cold to play... they taped that segment just in case and as it turned out they had to use it. Everyone knows they are all great platers and could have played it if it was warm enough so I don't think it will be that big of a deal.

Double ditto on that........

....the thing is that Milli Vanilli was going around making outlandish statements that they were better than the Beatles and they raised everyone's expectations that they were better than the Beatles.

We already know the real Ma and so I don't see why any of us are the least bit offended.

I'm sure if we had the same opportunities to play for an event like that, we would have done the same thing.

[ApK]

I'm a LITTLE offended. I mean, what was the point of having them go through the motions?
They could have (IMO, should have) simply played the tape, and let Perlman et al observe the event from a place of honor in the audience.
And in a broader sense, if the image of an event is 'too important to risk any slip ups' then why even pretend to have live performers at those events, ever, at all? Why the artifice?

ApK

[santjo24]

I am not offended, just disappointed.

As a musician I completely understand the situation.

As an unforgiving audience member I am turned off. Its always alittle insulting to hear a "live performance" and know that they are fake playing for you. I remember when me and my band made our first music video, we had to fake play to music. I felt like the biggest idiot trying to groove wile not actually "grooving".

Maybe if they had a dance choreographed! man that would be sweet.

[cwtwang]

Well, this comment might be laughable since I am not anywhere near in their league, but this all makes me feel better about my playing--Geesh, I've tired to play fast fiddle tunes in the cold and my fingers feel embalmed or something and I fail miserably. No wonder they sounded so great. And, I'll bet those were NOT their best instruments, for certain.

Cheryl:mandosmiley:

[Alex Orr]

It's my understanding that they DID play it, but that the version we heard on the TV (and that the audience heard through the PA) was pre-recorded. The folks up front heard the real thing, which was likely less than ideal given the weather condition and (according to Yo Yo Ma) the impossibility they had of getting the piano to stay in tune.

It's interesting that this came up because as soon as they started playing, my sister (who plays violin) commented that it was a miracle they could keep the instruments in tune.

I'll also guess that they were not using their best instruments. Maybe they were using Rogues? :)

[MikeEdgerton]

....I'll also guess that they were not using their best instruments....

You don't have to guess, that was reported as well.

[allenhopkins]

The description, I believe, was "modern" instruments. Not sure that modern = inferior, but 18th century Strads are irreplaceable, and even high-end contemporary instruments aren't so much...

[MikeEdgerton]

From the NY Times Article:

"...questions had swirled in the classical music world about whether Mr. Ma and Mr. Perlman would use their valuable cello and violin in the subfreezing weather. Both used modern instruments. Mr. Ma said he had considered using a hardy carbon-fiber cello, but rejected the idea to avoid distracting viewers with its unorthodox appearance."

[Scott Tichenor]

This discussion will continue only so long as it stays on topic.

This has been a disappointing week to me to see some nasty and negative comments regarding the election, and we've had to deal with enough of that to last for four years, this I can vouch for. We didn't allow this kind of discussion for the previous administration, nor will we for the current or future ones. Political discussions have been off-limits as part of this forum for close to ten years now.

At least one individual was permanently removed from this site for inappropriate remarks and I will not hesitate to do so again should this subject be used as an excuse to bring up political topic matter. Take it elsewhere. This is a music site, not a CNN user blog.

[fredfrank]

I've played in the cold before, and would have loved to have just recorded and faked along later...problem is, I fall apart when I am trying to record!

The fact is, I just figured that Ma and Perlman were just so good that their instruments didn't dare go out of tune.

:))

[catmandu2]

Well, at least they didn't go piezo-electric.

[F5GRun]

Even though we didnt hear what they were playing live they still were playing their instruments. I hope recordings surface of the actually performance. I would be interested to hear how out of tune they were, especially the piano. I know the violin and cello can make up for it due to lack of frets and abundance of skill of their trained ear, but not much you can do with the paino, and for the clarinet, I didnt see him try to tune mid song. Either way I thought it was awesome.

[mrmando]

Now that it's been confirmed that they didn't play their Strads outdoors, I wonder: Did they use them on the recording?

[blawson]

Shoulda followed up Yo-yo and Itzhak with Sam!

"Future Man and I can promise one thing: good rhythm in the White House for four years, friends." [Sam Bush, Strawberry Mtn Festival, 1999]

[Rick Schmidlin]

This discussion will continue only so long as it stays on topic.

This has been a disappointing week to me to see some nasty and negative comments regarding the election, and we've had to deal with enough of that to last for four years, this I can vouch for. We didn't allow this kind of discussion for the previous administration, nor will we for the current or future ones. Political discussions have been off-limits as part of this forum for close to ten years now.

At least one individual was permanently removed from this site for inappropriate remarks and I will not hesitate to do so again should this subject be used as an excuse to bring up political topic matter. Take it elsewhere. This is a music site, not a CNN user blog.


Thank you Steve, I only started this as newsworthy in regards to the music played and heard. As it featured master reknowned musicians who played some of the most importent accoustic music of our time. I thought it was importent story.

[Alex Orr]

So, do you think they were playing the notes that they were expecting to hear from their instruments, or were they having to make adjustments on the fly to compensate for how out of tune they may have been? For the piano player, he may not have had much choice (a key is a key) but with fretless instruments, I wondering if you could just compensate a little in your fretting to match what you're hearing?

I think a carbon-fiber violin and cello would have looked pretty darn cool. In any case, if they had just stuck with some synthesizers (and maybe a keytar) then they wouldn't have had to worry about any of this :))

BTW, all opinions about the inauguration aside, I thought it was a pretty cool piece of music.

[F5GRun]

I think they could have easily made adjustments on the fly depending on how well they could hear themselves. IIRC they had in ear monitors.

[Joe Parker]

My take on the situation is that they did what ever it took to make the occasion memorable for the President and everyone in attendance.Given the weather it was a good call by the producer.That the musicians were so convincing only goes to show what consumate professionals they are. If you look at the broader picture it was one part of many that carried the Inauguration to the masses.

[mrmando]

Listen to this interview with Yo-Yo (http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=99816993&m=99816976) on NPR ... he says that for the live performance, he and Perlman soaped their bow hair, and the piano's keys were decoupled from the hammers, so the instruments themselves wouldn't make any sound. People sitting near the musicians heard ... the recording.

Has anyone who's reading this ever had to play mandolin and sync along with a recording for a live performance?

[Marcus CA]

The problem with this situation is that nonmusicians hearing this story will actually view this as Milli Vanilli redux. The huge difference is that it really was those musicians that we heard. They really can play that movingly. I can just imagine all the people out there who think it's the same to tune a violin as to tuna fish saying, "If it's that cold for you, just put on some gloves and play for real."

At least we now know the real reason why Yo Yo was smiling so much.

[ApK]

The problem with this situation is that nonmusicians hearing this story will actually view this as Milli Vanilli redux. The huge difference is that it really was those musicians that we heard.

So it's more like Ashley Simpson on SNL?

No, I think the real difference is this wasn't a concert and it wasn't about the performance. As they said in that article, they were there to serve the moment.
So, again, my only issue is why bother, why the window dressing? Just because it's what people expect to see?

[MikeEdgerton]

Has anyone who's reading this ever had to play mandolin and sync along with a recording for a live performance?

Not me, I'd probably blow that big time.

[Michael Cameron]

I heard that they played a previous set,outdoors,with the carbon fiber instruments. Don't remember where I heard this...

Who is the keyboard player?

Very moving piece. I enjoyed listening and watching,no matter what.

I wouldn't play my beater mandolin in that weather,let alone a Strad.

[MikeEdgerton]

Thank you Steve....

His name is Scott. :cool:

[Pastor Bill Pawlyshyn]

some positive thoughts...
As musicians we view performance in a different light than the casual observer. Whether you approve of the presented venue or not, I am sure the thousands present at this event were impressed by all the happenings that day! My friend who has been a U.S. citizen for only a few years said she will treasure all the events she viewed!

[foldedpath]

Even though we didnt hear what they were playing live they still were playing their instruments. I hope recordings surface of the actually performance. I would be interested to hear how out of tune they were, especially the piano. I know the violin and cello can make up for it due to lack of frets and abundance of skill of their trained ear, but not much you can do with the paino, and for the clarinet, I didnt see him try to tune mid song. Either way I thought it was awesome.

It sounds like the piano was the show-stopper, although maybe not the only one. I read on another forum that during rehearsal, the piano keys were going down and not coming back up. That's not something the performer can compensate for, so they decided to play to the backup tape instead of going live. I don't know how they got around that for the sync'd performance. Maybe they just lubricated the heck out of the sacrificial piano they were using, or maybe she was just playing very lightly to the track.

(Edit: I see from mrmando's post that they decoupled the keys. That explains it.)

I have very mixed feelings about this. It's a great thing to showcase classical music and world-class performers at an event this widely watched. Yay for acoustic music! Even when it's not exactly pure acoustic with sound reinforcement, but you'd expect sound reinforcement at something like this. However, it's not so great (IMO) to foster the notion that a recorded playback trumps live performance, when performance is too difficult or the stakes are too high. There's already enough of that around (a.k.a. "National Anthem at Superbowl syndrome") and it would be nice if the line was held somewhere. I wish they had just played indoors at a nearby venue in the Capitol with a live feed. People are used to that now at big events.

[violmando]

YoYo Ma often uses a carbon fiber cello and I thought that was what he had at this performance; I imagine even with these being their "lesser" instruments, they cost more than many of ours But I did hear that they played "Live" for the folks right there, so they weren't faking that much. I can't blame them; how many gigs have any of us played outside in that kind of weather? Brass players sometimes do, but we stringers almost NEVER play in the cold. But I imagine it was a point of pride for them to do it the way that they did--to just sit there and listen to their own recording would have been less than honorable. They might have well played ANY recording for the ceremony then. I was impressed with what they did and think no less of them for how they did it. BTW, I am a bowed string player and it would have been HELL to play in that weather--rosin also doesn't want to stick, so getting a good stroke would also have been difficult. They couldn't have been too loud. Yvonne

[MikeEdgerton]

...But I did hear that they played "Live" for the folks right there, so they weren't faking that much....

You heard wrong. One of the articles has described the fact that the keyboard on the piano was decoupled from the strings and that the strings on the violin and cello were soaped. You'd have to assume nobody near them heard anything but the recording.

Again, I think if they had just broadcast this from inside on the Jumbotrons and the sound system (and the TV) and told the crowd it was too cold for the instruments to be outside that it would have been acceptable to all and we all wouldn't be having this discussion. It just wasn't thought through.

[Links]

This brings up another question - was Aretha Franklin's performance live? I didn't think so, but my wife said it was - very good regardless!

Great to hear the Navy choir sing the National Anthem just as it was written - very stirring!

[Alex Orr]

Again, I think if they had just broadcast this from inside on the Jumbotrons and the sound system (and the TV) and told the crowd it was too cold for the instruments to be outside that it would have been acceptable to all and we all wouldn't be having this discussion. It just wasn't thought through.
Yeah, I agree. If they'd just played the thing pre-recorded I don't think anyone would have thought anything about it. It just seems unnecessary to have brought them up their to "lip-synch" on their instruments.

Man, I hope the folks around them knew what was going on. I can see this being really confusing to anyone who expected sound to come from those instruments :disbelief:

[JEStanek]

I still agree with Mike. I don't feel it would have detracted from the ceremony to have had them play from inside the Capitol building (e.g., the rotunda). If the decision was to have them out on the platform, the decision made was the best possible one. In effect, it was still a performance. Perhaps not a musical but more of a dance. It still sounded good and was full of feeling.

The more I think about the live/recorded aspects the less I personally care. What's more interesting is the desire to play this song myself now that it's taken up residency in my head. Should anyone else feel similarly, here's the Wiki page for Simple Gifts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Gifts) with notation. It's a nice simple tune to start with. Right up my alley.

The notation is from the Wiki page.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/SimpleGifts.png

Jamie

[Mike Bromley]

As an ex-pat Canuck in a third foreign country, I consider the piece played, no matter what. A lovely piece at that.

Glad to have witnessed the goings-on.:mandosmiley:

[Michael Gowell]

Just a quick aside about the Shaker hymn 'Simple Gifts' - if you go to Sabbathday Lake Maine on a summer Sunday mid-morning and sit quietly on the porch of the large Dwelling House of the Shaker settlement there you can hear through the open windows the last half-dozen Shakers in the world singing their service upstairs. I've done it a couple of times and never had any company sharing the experience. An interesting place - their cemetary has no individually marked graves, just one stone that says 'Shakers.'

[mando.player]

Simple Gifts is one of the tunes Debora Chen uses in her notation book. An excellent choice on her part and a great tune.

[Jason Kessler]

My question is: if the music we heard was a recording, why was the clarinet lost in the mix in the last third?

[MikeEdgerton]

My question is: if the music we heard was a recording, why was the clarinet lost in the mix in the last third?

Well there's a simple answer to that, it's a clarinet. :grin:

[mrmando]

The recording engineer did that to throw us off the scent: "If the mix is perfect, they won't think it's live!"

[MikeEdgerton]

The recording engineer did that to throw us off the scent: "If the mix is perfect, they won't think it's live!"

Yeah, like that.

Or is there a larger conspiracy. Did they tell us they were lip-syncing when they were really playing? :confused:

[Keith Erickson]

Please help me understand what is wrong....

Milli Vanilli went around pontificating about there musical abilities; go on to win a grammy and then we find out they didn't have any musical abilities.

Now we have Mr. Ma & Friends (noted musicians in there own right), record a beautiful piece of music, and then perform it (with out actually playing the piece) in front of 6 billion people and we're all upset about the "authenticity" of what we saw.

I think Barbra Streisand has reared her ugly head again :mad:

[JEStanek]

I'm not upset.

[mandolirius]

<Has anyone who's reading this ever had to play mandolin and sync along with a recording for a live performance?>

Not exactly but I did do a TV show once where they had some problem with the orginal audio. We had to wait until they were finished taping the show, then play while we watched ourselves on video. The idea was to match what we were playing to what we appeared to be playing onscreen. We did two or three takes, until the producer figured they had what they needed. It was a stange, rather surreal experience. Everyone in the band found it harder than just playing the song live.

[CES]

I saw AKUS in Asheville a few years ago, and at one point the roof started leaking briskly right in the middle of the stage...Dan Tyminsky sprinted off stage after the song they were doing, at which point Jerry Douglas said something to the effect of 'Where in the heck is he going.' When Dan emerged just a few seconds later Jerry said, "Oh, to get a disposable guitar," and the band and crowd laughed together. The disposable guitar was a beat up Martin that sounded great, but it was kind of funny to watch the audience react...those around us that played knew exactly what he was doing and were surprised a little the others didn't follow suit...

This isn't even close to Milli-Vanilli-esque, but I agree I would have been more satisfied with a live performance from inside piped out than the "pretend" performance...totally understand why they didn't play live outside, though.

[ApK]

Just next time, I hope they have the good sense to consult with us before making these kinds of decisions.

[Kevin K]

Ha ha, I'm sure they will. Besides they needed a mandolin there.

[Bill Snyder]

... and then perform it (with out actually playing the piece) in front of 6 billion people ...

Six billion people?

[Barb Friedland]

I can't believe how much time and energy is going into this thread. I could be wrong, but I'll bet this decision was not totally up to the musicians. I'm willing to bet that some PR guru had a say in them "faking it". Let's talk mandolins now already! :mandosmiley:

[Santiago]

Yeah. It's also possible they taped rehearsal and didn't tell them... but not likely. It's a tough situation and they opted for not disappointing the crowd.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm sure the musicians knew it was going to be taped and played and I'm sure they had a hand in the decision. To think otherwise is pretty silly. They obviously signed onto the idea. Yoyo Ma looked like he was really enjoying himself and that's actually good. If they hadn't wanted it to go down the way it did they could have just opted out without any problems.

I do have to agree with Apk, they should consult us before they do this next time.

[mandroid]

I think Milli Vanilli didn't even do their own voice tracks, that they later, pretended to sing..

[MikeEdgerton]

I think Milli Vanilli didn't even do their own voice tracks, that they later, pretended to sing..

You think right. That is a documented fact.

[Mike Bromley]

Just plain silly to have a 'Nog in January...JUUUUUUST Kidding

[Links]

IF someone doesn't answer my question about Aretha my wife is going to win our bet!

[ApK]

Aretha sang live, though she was accompanied by taped music and voices.

Easily searchable on Google if you need verification.

[allenhopkins]

I quarrel with the premise of the thread's title. Perlman, Yo Yo Ma et. al. didn't "fake it": they played the music we heard, both beforehand for the recording, and at the ceremony, at least according to the press accounts. The recorded version is what was broadcast through the sound system, but those sitting near the musicians heard them "live," and apparently they were able to duplicate the recorded performance despite the cold weather conditions, and the use of less valuable instruments than their usual Stradivarii etc.

I do applaud the performances of all the military bands, and even more those of the high school and college ensembles who marched through the twilight in the long-delayed parade. They had no pre-recorded tracks to back them up! But I can't fault the event organizers, or Perlman, Ma, McGill and Montero, for trying to ensure that the million or so present in DC, and the billions supposedly tuned in on TV, heard their best music.

[ApK]

The recorded version is what was broadcast through the sound system, but those sitting near the musicians heard them "live," and apparently they were able to duplicate the recorded performance despite the cold weather conditions, and the use of less valuable instruments than their usual Stradivarii etc

To repeat, as Yo Yo himself said in an NPR interview linked earlier in this thread, those sitting near the musicians heard a taped performance through the monitors. The bows were soaped and the piano keys decoupled from the hammers.

Nonetheless I don't think anyone is doubting or dissing the musicians, just some of us disapprove of the event organizer's choice to pretend to have a live performance on site.
ApK

[allenhopkins]

Here's some rather interesting techy stuff (from the gearslutz website (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/)):

Yes they were really playing, but as has been duly noted by several spectators, the weather conditions weren't even close to "nice" for those instruments, so there was a track playing along with them, and under the circumstances, the track went out over the "air" and the PA. The musicians received a count off in their ear monitors, which they reluctantly agreed to wear. Afterwords, they praised the concept of in ear monitors, so you never know what they'll do next.
It was a Neuman TL 140 on the cello, and a Sennheiser 8000 on both the violin and the clarinet. the Earthworks mic in the shot happened to be for the Herald Trumpets, which played in front of the quartet. (sort of an optical illusion)
The piano mics (DPA's) were struck from the set as the piano was rendered inoperable prior to the performance so that local spectators on the adjacent risers wouldn't be distracted by the acoustic, out of tune piano sounds.
Aretha performed to a track of band and choir, and she had zero voice on both the rehearsal day and the show day. I'm sure she's still got a great set of pipes, but she didn't bring them to this gig. May have been something to do with sitting outside in less than 30 degree weather for her opportunity to perform that had something to do with it. As for the "stage area being protected from the weather" think again. those folks came out to the stage area totally un prepared for the elements. they basically froze their buts off for about 2 hours!!! there were heat vents on the floor of the stage, but they only kept a few people warm.
the shotgun mics on either side of the podium were for the swearing in oaths. It was agreed that the two judges would wear RF lav mics, but both the Pres. and the VP couldn't be lav'd up, so the shotguns were to pick up their parts of the swearing in dialoge, and as you all know by now, one of the participants sort of created his own rhythm to the whole thing. Didn't follow the script. Oh, well.
The Childrens choir performed live, with their own pianist playing along with them on an electric keyboard, and they sounded great! Very poised young folks, and their spoken word parts too were live and well done. the Sea Chanters also performed line and they too sounded great. The Marine Band also performed live, and they too sounded great in spite of their obviously cold hands and instruments! A credit to that military mentality I suppose.
Maryland Sound provided the sound system and crew for the Swearing in Ceremony and all the PA on the Capitol Grounds and off, up to 3rd Street, as well as the entire parade route, and overflow areas in Lafayette Park. Clair Bros. provided all of the delay towers from 4th street on to who know where, I suppose all the way to the Lincoln Memorial. The signal was handed off from MSI to Clair via (now this is where it got messy) the NBC pool truck router to the Senate AV studio to Total RF, who did the actual micro wave transmission down the mall (audio and video together).
So now yo know the rest of the story.....

Apparently this person didn't know about the soaped bows, either...

[Links]

Aretha sang live, though she was accompanied by taped music and voices.

Easily searchable on Google if you need verification.

APK - Allen's source says she did not sing live, or else I'm reading it wrong! I'll try googling another source!

PS: Just read the following from the AP "But Franklin sang "My Country, 'Tis of Thee" live, and the band also performed live."

The "band" was referring to the Marine Band and not the one playing for Aretha, which was taped, along with the back-up singers.

[ApK]

Allen's post say "Aretha performed to a track of band and choir, and she had zero voice on both the rehearsal day and the show day."
IOW, she sang live with taped backup and didn't sound her best.

[Paul Kotapish]

There's nothing new--or particularly unusual--about top-name performers lip-, bow-, or pick-synching for big-time media events that are likely to include stressful or uncontrollable circumstances.

It's kind of disappointing to discover that a seemingly amazing performance under adverse conditions was faked, but in this case, would it have been better to have skipped the performance altogether or to simply have the prerecorded track without the appearance of the musicians? I got a lot of pleasure of watching those four great players go through the motions of performing the music that they had--in fact--played the day before, just as I used to enjoy the obviously fake performances of bands on American Bandstand and other pop shows when I was a kid.

Some of the finest and most-capable musicians in the world use prerecorded tracks on occasion. I was never a fan of the whole Riverdance trip, but I was impressed by the caliber of the musicians involved. I was a little surprised to learn that the uillean pipe solo (by one of the world's finest pipers) that was one of the high points of the show had been prerecorded and that the piper was just miming his performance most nights.

The uillean pipes are notoriously finicky and prone to malfunction at the slightest change in temperature or humidity, and the piper and musical director were not willing to take the chance of hearing out-of-pitch notes and random honks and squawks during what was supposed to be one of the more poignant and delicate moments of the show.

And many of the worlds top rock acts use prerecorded tracks as a matter of course for their stadium shows. Bands with tons of performance cred such as Bruce Springsteen, U2, and REM--although not lip synching and actually playing all the instruments you see on stage--frequently augment the on-stage sounds with prerecorded rhythm, string, or harmony tracks.

This approach has even filtered down to the local club scene for many rock bands. Lots of bands who are barely out of the garage are using synth- or drum-triggered tracks to boost their "live" sound. It's not my cup of tea, but I will admit that it can add a layer of complexity and excitement that otherwise would be missing.

It's not unlike the near-universal phenomenon of editing takes of live performances for release. That "live" concert performance on CD is often a careful melange of dozens of separate takes to capture the best bits and eliminate the embarassing moments. It's routine for symphonic releases to include hundreds of edits, for example.

These days, if you want to hear plain, pure, and unadulterated live music, support your local coffeehouse or bluegrass, jazz, or folk club.

[Bob Wiegers]

there's an interview with Aretha on cnn.com here http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/01/22/lkl.aretha.franklin/index.html?iref=newssearch where she talks about her performance (which she wasnt happy with) and her hat (which she apparently was happy with)

[MikeEdgerton]

...but in this case, would it have been better to have skipped the performance altogether or to simply have the prerecorded track without the appearance of the musicians?

It was being broadcast to jumbotrons and television sets around the world. It could have been broadcast from the rotunda. It didn't have to be prerecorded. It wasn't like anyone in the crowd other than those very close could even see the performers.

[Bob Wiegers]

It wasn't like anyone in the crowd other than those very close could even see the performers.

sorry, but it would have been too distracting, even if it's understandable. people would have thought "why the heck are they in there?" instead of, "wow, that's nice." Mr. Ma was quoted saying that he didnt take the CF cello b/c it would have distracted viewers. same reason.

[MikeEdgerton]

The simple answer was to tell the truth. It was too cold for the instruments to be outside. Make the announcement. Keep in mind that vast majority of the audience wasn't seeing it live anyway. There would have been no distraction, it would have been on the screens of the Jumbotrons. The majority of the people there couldn't see the Marine Band in the pit. Was that distracting? No, they saw it on the Jumbotrons.

[mandomurph]

"The Marine Band also performed live, and they too sounded great in spite of their obviously cold hands and instruments! A credit to that military mentality I suppose."

I could swear I saw some violin players in the Marine orchestra wearing gloves, both the white cloth and black leather padded types. I wondered at the time how they could possibly get any decent tone with gloves on. Maybe they are more used to playing in all types of severe weather conditions.

[eadg145]

I am really surprised that there had been so much discussion regarding the performance. (I was off having root canals and other fun tests of pain response, so couldn't contribute. I'm just reading the threads now.) Still, there were two very obvious "tells" to the sync'd performance:
1) Perlman's vibrato didn't correspond to the movement of his hands. This was very clear throughout the performance. He may have been listening to himself in the monitors, and there was a noticeable lag, if he added the vibrato at all. (Yo Yo Ma appeared to me to be dead on.)
2) There was clearly the sound of a hall reverb, which could not possibly have been present in that venue. This should have clued in anyone who has used reinforced sound. (I realize that lots of Cafe members are acoustic-only live musicians. But anyone who records could pick this out, if he was listening closely.)

Is this a big deal? I think not. I'd LOVE to hear those 4 play that live, but it is unreasonable to expect them to risk their instruments to that weather. And just the physics of the temperature, the gut strings, and the tunings make the whole idea of playing outside in tune completely impossible.

cheers,

David

[luckylarue]

Wait a minute...You mean Milli Vanilli faked it?!?!?! Say it ain't so, Joe.

[ApK]

I want to re-reiterate, certainly for myself, and if I read it correctly (otherwise I apologize for presuming to speak for anyone else), for the others of like mind:
No one is criticizing the musicians for choosing not to play live outside in those conditions.

Those of us who have any objection at all are simply wishing that the people who made these decisions had either not bothered to try to appear to have a live performance at all, putting image before substance, and simply played the recorded performance (maybe with video!), or that they had not, as someone said, put it forth that tape is an adequate substitute for live music, and instead had them play live somewhere else and beamed in the live performance to the crowd.

ApK

[Paul Kotapish]

It could have been broadcast from the rotunda. It didn't have to be prerecorded.

Not a bad solution, Mike, but I'm guessing that pageantry will almost always trump authenticity for these circumstances. Apparently it was deemed important that President Obama be able to see the actual musicians as they "performed," which I guess they did, in a sense.

FWIW, In Yo Yo Ma's NPR interview, he said that playing to a prerecorded track is S.O.P. for the Marine Band when conditions are brutal. I guess they were still within their comfort zone last Tuesday, but they had recorded a backup--just in case things got out of control.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99816993

[ApK]

FWIW, In Yo Yo Ma's NPR interview, he said that playing to a prerecorded track is S.O.P. for the Marine Band when conditions are brutal.

Yeah, but 'brutal conditions' for a Marine does not mean 'cold.'
It means 'need to take cover and return fire.'
:grin:

[Links]

APK:

Quote: "Aretha performed to a track of band and choir, and she had zero voice on both the rehearsal day and the show day. I'm sure she's still got a great set of pipes, but she didn't bring them to this gig."

Dumb me! I read this from Alan's post and couldn't figure out what "zero voice" meant - thought it might be a term for "lip syncing" - as opposed to she just didn't "have it". I knew the back-up was taped. With those weather condition, I thought her presentation was fine. I have not heard her in a long time, so did not expect to "old" Aretha! Apparently she was not too happy with it!

[man dough nollij]

I know pretty much next to nothing about the technology and accoustics of large outdoors performances, but I do remember reading something about the singing of the National Anthem at some time that got my attention.

I hope this isn't a hijack, but isn't it true that sometimes at really huge venues it is impossible to play live?

What I'm getting at is this: the time difference between your monitors (or in-ear-monitors) and the PA output is going to be humonguous in big venues-- maybe seconds.

Singing the National Anthem in a huge baseball stadium, it would be so hard to shut out the sound of your own voice from the PA that it would just throw you off no matter how good you were.

I doubt that there are totally soundproof IEM sets that kill that late delivery. Any Cafe'ers care to enlighten a noob on how sound is handled in venues that are so big that time delay is a major concern?

(Probably not real relevant unless Sam Bush asks me to fill in for him at next year's Telluride BG Festival. It could happen.)

:mandosmiley::mandosmiley:

[PaulO]

Well at least one subject can lead to another. Slate.com had a great explaner of stringed instruments and weather. Check it out. http://www.slate.com/id/2209787/[/URL]

Paul

[Rick Schmidlin]

I was watching a Sam Bush DVD in one room and my wife in another. She came out and said I really polished that version when she saw the mandolin in my hand. I smiled and said thank you and she wow you are getting good. They I pointed out is was Sam not me:(

[Keith Erickson]

Lee,

I saw an interview (yeas ago) with Dolly Parton. ....and she complained about just what you mentioned. I believe she was singing in a stadium and the words that she just sung came back at her about 1½ seconds later.

I would find that horrifying if I was up there and something like that happened to me :disbelief:

[eadg145]

Many performers today choose to have in-ear monitors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-ear_monitor

There are many advantages to this (custom mixes for each performer, for example), and ambient noise reduction is also a big plus. The custom-molded ones are absolutely Da Bomb. I have "musicians' ear plugs" that are custom-molded, and I highly recommend them to *everyone*. These may also be attached to an in-ear monitoring system, but I have not used them in that manner yet.

In any case, such a system, with good ambient noise reduction, would certainly help attenuate the long reverberation times experienced in a venue like a stadium. It also helps a singer to stay on pitch, as there is strong audible feedback from the tissue of the ear.

cheers,

David

[mandocaster]

"The Marine Band also performed live, and they too sounded great in spite of their obviously cold hands and instruments! A credit to that military mentality I suppose."

I could swear I saw some violin players in the Marine orchestra wearing gloves, both the white cloth and black leather padded types. I wondered at the time how they could possibly get any decent tone with gloves on. Maybe they are more used to playing in all types of severe weather conditions.

They're Marines! They can play a Bach Partita or storm the beach on Guadalcanal with equal aplomb.

[kestrel]

This is absofreaqkinlutely amazing!

84 posts concerning the fact that some of the world's greatest musicians didn't choose to give a substandard performance - due to way less than favorable conditions for both themselves, and their instruments.

And there are those who say that we Americans tend to make "much ado over nothing". PSHAW!

"They're Marines! They can play a Bach Partita or storm the beach on Guadalcanal with equal aplomb."

Yep, and we didn't lip-synk that, either. :cool:

Gene

[mandroid]

I recall something about Zone delays for multi pair speaker setups so the sound is coming from all places synchronized to sound simultaneous .

of course that is a lot of gear, quite different than big stage towers coming from just one place.

There were ranks of big screen video monitors set up further down the Mall were there not?
BBC news online had a satellite photo of Inauguration crowd and one taken without , before , a regular day.
and there were density waves back in the mall thinning out away from the big screen, and another
crowd up closer to the next monitor ..

[MikeEdgerton]

Perspective. Here's what the people close up that weren't dignitaries saw. The rest of the crowd was from this point to about a mile and half further away. Without the jumbotrons they wouldn't have seen too much. The people at the point where this picture was taken didn't see much either.

[MikeEdgerton]

By the way, If I'm not mistaken the players in question were above that arched doorway in the middle, I could be wrong. That's where I took them to be.

[Santiago]

Nollij,

Certainly delay is a problem in large venues and it can throw off the inexperienced stadium singer. It's not uncommon for large outdoor venues to delay the audio for distant speaker sets so it doesn't interfere with any direct audio from the state that takes its time and, of course, the images (stage or video reinforcement) travel at the speed of light. Thunder and lightening timing rules apply.

[JEStanek]

One of my frustrations at the Philly folk fest is the large screen projected with camera shots of the stage are always a split second behind the audio. I can't watch them. It's like a dubbed Godzilla movie with a wonderful soundtrack.

Jamie

[foldedpath]

By the way, If I'm not mistaken the players in question were above that arched doorway in the middle, I could be wrong. That's where I took them to be.

Right, that's about where they were. Check out this zoom-able composite shot (http://www.gigapan.org/viewGigapan.php?id=15374&window_height=844&window_width=1665). Center the image on the red arch behind the podium, then zoom in, and look for the group of kids all wearing red knit caps on the level just above it. Pan a little to the left of that group of kids, and you'll see the quartet.

If you zoom in tight and see Perlman applauding and Ma taking a cellphone picture during Obama's speech, then I guess it's obvious why they wanted to do it this way, and be present at the event instead of doing a live video feed from indoors. I'm not sure I agree with it, but it was their call.

[ApK]

84 posts concerning the fact that some of the world's greatest musicians didn't choose to give a substandard performance - due to way less than favorable conditions for both themselves, and their instruments.


That's not what any of the posts are concerning.
If people need to chime in to deride someone else's discussion, can't they at least deride something that the others are actually discussing?

[ApK]

One of my frustrations at the Philly folk fest is the large screen projected with camera shots of the stage are always a split second behind the audio. I can't watch them. It's like a dubbed Godzilla movie with a wonderful soundtrack.

Jamie

If this is a widespread issue, I wonder if they could just delay the video a bit to minimize the issue for the majority of viewers? I mean, if you're really close to a huge screen, you can't get a good look, and if you're really far, you can't see it anyway, so delay the video so sync is correct, say, a 100 yards away?

ApK

[Links]

Quote: "And there are those who say that we Americans tend to make "much ado over nothing". PSHAW!"

Don't blame us for talking about something that may be a little bit relative - all the press wants to talk about is Aretha's hat.

[JEStanek]

The Philly folk fest is on a much smaller scale than the inauguration. Thankfully we only have to deal with the occasional downpour in SE PA in August. The crowd can be as close as 10 yards from the stage and as far away as 100-150yards. I get over the visual delay by just watching the stage from my seat (usually higher) on the hill.

The attached picture is of JD Crowe on stage. It's a wider angle to show the clouds but I'm really not that far from the stage. I can see the folks that are on there, just not the chord they're playing. ;-) Philly projects the images onto tow screens flanking the stages. How do larger fests (Merlfest, Telluride) handle this or is it a pretty common?

Jamie