Improvising

[Bluegrasstjej]

I'm trying to learn to play breaks and stuff on bluegrass songs. I'm learning to improvise which I find VERY difficult. I sing my usual songs and I try to just play around with the melody but I rarely come up with something cool. I wonder how you guys do when you improvise?

[Jeffers]

I think that I'm trying to do the same thing as you describe with about as much success! I've been working through "Frettboard Roadmaps" book which claims to enable you to do just that - nifty breaks etc. As far as I can make out, it suggests that you play your licks around the same sort of chord positions that your fingers would be in if you were playing rhythm, only picking notes and double stops instead. There's more to it than that I'm sure but I'm gonna try to work on that and see if it leads anywhere!

If I ever ask any of the pros at festival signing tents for tips, I think the most common reply is the rather cryptic "just keep listening to the music." Well, I'm doing that so maybe one day I'll wake up and be able to play the most fantastic breaks you ever heard! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[peterbc]

There've been threads about this before. Listening to the music is good advice, try to copy breaks you like, it helps. Practice a lot. I havn't used the fretboard roadmaps, but I try to know what notes are in the chord that I'm playing against and use those as a guide (but not a definitive guide!). Try to figure out what works for others by copying their breaks and licks, and play the same song over and over until you get so sick of it that you have to do something different... sometimes that'll help you stumble across something good.

[Tom C]

I find learning and playing a difficult fiddle tune is easier than making up a break
for a tune you do not know. I can get a basic melody but iI'm now looking to expand
by adding and taking notes. but I find it difficult to make up a break that consists
of all 8th notes (for instance) and keeping the melody. Hopefully the symposium will
shine some light. I've been recently been playing with someone that plays jugband,
old gospel blues (a lot of 1,4,5 -especially in 'C') that I'm feeling more comfortable with.

[John S]

Always know what chord you're playing on top of. Always know the pentatonic scale to play for that chord, in a couple positions. Augment that with a knowledge of passing notes and licks between those pentatonic scale notes (learn those from listening to the music), add in your favorite licks and rhythmic devices, and you're well on your way.

[freddyu]

Having taken the leap from classical violin training to "fiddle" to playing the mandolin, the idea of playing leads around chords is very foreign to me. You don't play no stink'in chords on a violin, other than double stops. So for me improvising is more about knowing scales. Knowing where notes are, hearing in your head what you want to play and having your fingers just go there... I know that is vague, but knowing scales up and down the neck will help greatly. Embellishing with double stops, slides and such seems to be the next challenge.

[Jeffers]

I think I heard somewhere that there tend to be two breeds of soloists - folks who are real good playing around with variations on the melody with fast notes and stuff, and others who play around with double stops and harmonise on the melody. Can't remember where I heard that but it struck me that some people might find one style easier than the other - or something.

[RobP]

I'll put in another plug for Niles Hokkanen here. I have "The Pentatonic Mandolin" and "Bluegrass Up the Neck". Those two books together open up a wide world of improv possibilities. Up the neck focusses on improv around chord positions, and really helps open up the fretboard. Pentatonic Mandolin shows how to use the pentatonic scales (which are found within those chord positions above) to open up new improv possibilities. While the song melody is usually the basis for most lead breaks, ya gotta find those filler and embellishing notes somewhere, right? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

If I ever get good enough at this to teach new people to play I will use these 2 books for sure.

Cheers,

Rob

[ethanopia]

I think the cryptic "Listen to the Music" is about as good advice as there can be, it sounds simple. But I think they mean really listen to it, all the time everyday, every chance you get. I find I don't internalize a new tune until I've heard it at least 20-30 times and played it about as much. iTunes can give you a rough idea of song play count, very handy.

Not only that but playing with other folks will help a lot. Listen to what they do for breaks, and compare that to the actual melody.

And if you really want a "Bluegrass" sound, WSM! Listen to every Bill Monroe break you can, understand that he didn't always play the melody but he did usually imply it every chance he could. Big Mon Rules! Find those bluesy 3rd and flat 7ths, I say forget scales and theorys and find the melody and ask yourself and your friends did that sound cool?

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Ear training, or the ability to know where to find the things you can hear in your head, is essential to improvising fluently. I know there are those players who learn a bunch of licks in different keys, and then just string them together, but that kinda limits you to the number of licks you've memorized. There's nothing wrong with knowing a lot of licks, but that's just the starting point. If you can hear a cool lick in your mind, then sit down and find it! It gets easier everytime you do that. My favorite improvisation practice is to play along with the song on the stereo and take every break, trying to make each one different. Kinda like jamming with the pros.

[Spruce]

I think that there are two things you need to cultivate when first getting into improvising: #
attitude and courage...

Sure, playing around the melody is important (if not crucial), but having an attitude that no matter where you go in your improvising you can get out of it on the other end is critical.

And cultivating the courage to go there is important too...

It's kinda like surfing. #
If you don't have the attitude and courage that you're gonna make the wave, it ain't gonna happen. #The wave will throw all kinds of unexpected challenges your way, but to just relax and know you can adjust as you go along in order to make the wave is the key.

It's the same with improvising.

Pick a note when improvising in any key--any note--and the odds are good (with the possible exception of a major 3rd played over a minor key) that you're gonna be able to work your way in and out of the implied melody and "make the wave", as long as you have the attitude that you're gonna get through the solo somehow and the courage to make it happen...

"Listen to every Bill Monroe break you can"

Talk about attitude and courage... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

The guy just went for it in a way that might even be considered to be "over the top" in a jam situation these days. #It was almost a rock-and-roll approach (some say it's the other way around after a listen to Chuck Berry), with a lot of emphasis on driving home the chords...

Driving home those chords is a great way to start improvising. #Work off those chord shapes, and venture out from there...

[Tom C]

11 <span style='color:red'>different</span> notes in a chromatic scale. 7 in major scale (The first and last are the same) So that's 7/11. Add flatted 3rd and 7th now that 9 good notes out of 11. How do I end up playing the wrong notes all the time?

[steve in tampa]

Listening to the music is how you get the melodies in your head. To truly improvise, you have to come up with your own melodies or variations on melodies. Whistling can help. It has to be born in your head before you can get out through your hands.

[mandofiddle]

Always know where you are in the melody, even if your not playing or quoting it. Which means, know how to play the melody. If'n you get lost in your break, hop back onto the melody. Know the double stops for each chord, and pentatonic scales. You can "dance around" the melody note with the scales, and get your eighth note runs there. I think the key is to hit enough of the melody notes so that it's recognizable, but also to dance around them as well to make it more interesting.

[ethanopia]

Bruce,

I agree with whole heartdly on the attitude confidence and courage, you can't be afraid of screwing up. You have to take the good with the bad, much to the chagrin of the people you jam with...I've apologized many times (still do), laugh it off move on and it becomes a learning experience.

And yeah Big Mon had the attitude and confidence department worked out for sure. I love how confidently he wailed away on tunes, it is certainly inspiring to say the least.

[Spruce]

"You have to take the good with the bad, much to the chagrin of the people you jam with"

Hey, that's their problem... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Everyone was at that edge of the learning curve at one time or another....
And still is...

[mandopete]

Everyone was at that edge of the learning curve at one time or another....
And still is...
Words to live by - thanks Bruce!

[MandoVin]

I sometimes like to practice by turning on the radio and playing along with whatever comes on... I think it's good ear training because it helps me to listen to the music and figure out how the mando can fit in. Try all kinds of music too. The first hurdle is figuring out what key the song is but after that I can work on learning the rhythm, melody or simply noodle away. BTW, this exercise may be something you try when you have the house to yourself. Sometimes it can sound pretty bad, but there's lots to learn from the bad sounding songs as well.

[mandoman4807]

I have opened more doors playing along with all types of music, than any other source of instructional material to date!


Darrell

[pdlstl]

99% of the time, you can play great little solos utilizing just the notes in the pentatonic scale (same as the major, just omit the 4th and 7th.)

When things go really, really wrong (and you get lost as a rat #### in a sack of rice, go to the 5th. tone in the scale of the song key. Stay on it until you figure out where you are. It works.

[duuuude]

Hangin' out with a fifth when yer lost sounds good to me. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

To me this is the practical way to learn improv-many will disagree

Its good to start with a key-say the key of A. learn 20 different fiddle tunes in that key, then find 10 vocal tunes in that key and learn them-play the vocal melody on the mandolin-no matter how basic. very few fiddle tunes have more than 6 chords. Most have 3 or 4. You'll start to notice similarities

Now start to analize the different phrasing and patterns you use and pay close attention to what chord these patters and licks happen over.

Apply those phrasings to different songs that have the same chords. Maybe change them a little or play the parts that aren't so recognizable. Any time a chord happens you can often play the phrasings of another song on top of it-if they are in the same key or on the same chord.

Once your hands and mind start seeing the inherent patterns in the key of A you can just sort of noodle around in that key. When a chord change happens then incorporate the notes that make up the chord. When playing in A maj you have the A, C# and E as your super important notes-when it goes to a 4 chord(D major) still playin the key of A but stress the notes that make up that chord D, F#, A-start on these notes when starting a phrase and end on these notes when ending a phrase-know where these notes are and what chord you are on so you can always have a safe place to go.

At this point maybe your playing sounds lame to you-but the point is you are starting to understand how to improvise. Once you start getting the natural feelings of just being able to play over the changes delve deeper into Chromatic runs, more pulloffs and hammer ons, playing Minor runs over major chords and the good use of double stops and tremelo for effect.

The ability to improv-the mindset- i have often thought was either there or not-not often learned. This doesn't mean just because you can play of the cuff you are good at it-there is a lot to know about it techniques-patterns-theory. The first obstacle is just the mindset.

[Fretbear]

I agree with Atlanta; if you can't do it in one key, forget about playing in all the keys (some people may never want to..) After figuring out how a key "works", the great thing is that anything that you can play in that key can be transposed, perhaps not easily, but as Doyle Lawson has said "It's on there..."
The transposing of something that you know cold into an unfamiliar key could be one of the greatest ear training techniques around...

[steve in tampa]

A simple little exercise I have been doing is to play the first part of "Arkansas Traveler" on different strings and in positions all over the neck.

Sometimes in the dark so I make my fingers find their way, and sometimes I watch my finger, and that helps me understand the chord/note relationships on the fretboard.

I can mindlessly play this and improve my skills without the regiment of practicing scales. It also seems to make scaling easier when I go that route.

[ShaneJ]

One thing that helps me sometimes is to listen to the music and just whistle or hum a "break". #Vocally, the scales that fit each chord come naturally by ear. #Then I can pick it out on mando or guitar. #I need to practice more fiddle tunes, melodies, scales, arpeggios, etc. to the point where the music can intuitively flow out of my fingers. #I'm making a little progress, but have a LONG way to go. #

If my picking can ever come as naturally as my whistling, I'll have it.

[Magnus Geijer]

In a previous thread on the same subject, someone suggested whistling, and that has worked wonders for me. It's great for that immediate subconscious-to-note thing. Fast as lightning and accurate as all get-out. Try some improvised whistling to a recorded version of whatever song you're working on and I bet you'll see what I mean right away.

/Magnus

[Garrett]

I would like to make a strong plug for John McGann's new book on improvising on fiddle tunes on the mandolin.

[doublestop]

I think the most important factor is the TIME element. Everyone so often wants instant gratification and it just doesn't work that way. I remember 4 years ago when I couldn't even chop on 2 and 4. I am now able to put together a half decent break while improvising. My advice would be, yes, listen to different people and steal their licks whenever you can. Live settings, of course are the best. It helps to be around people that are better than you are. When first starting to learn to solo just work on the melody. At those places where there are pauses in the music try to throw something in. Starting with fills is a good place to start improvising.

[duuuude]

Great advice Peter & doublestop, I'm just beginning to have minor breakthroughs in putting breaks together and have found exactly what you both say to be true. Pay attention to others' approach to it, and practice, it'll come eventually.

What started working for me was when I quit trying to find a bucketful of notes to string together, but began adding little things here & there, the KISS principle I guess. Makes ya actually listen to what you're contributing.

[Kbone]

Great stuff ! How is that book " Intermediate Mandolin "
Greg Horne ?

[Bluegrasstjej]

I agree with Atlanta; if you can't do it in one key, forget about playing in all the keys (some people may never want to..) After figuring out how a key "works", the great thing is that anything that you can play in that key can be transposed, perhaps not easily, but as Doyle Lawson has said "It's on there..."
The transposing of something that you know cold into an unfamiliar key could be one of the greatest ear training techniques around...
I actually have to transpose things all the time because my voice changes so much. I used to sing in A two years ago, now I sing in C and I'm moving on to D very soon.

About improvising, I can tell you that I've had some great practice this weekend. I was at a bluegrass festival and I played lead at the jam for the first time in my life. One gal took up Liberty and it's a tune I've played some lately. I haven't played it a lot though. But I tried anyway, she asked me to pick it up and I did. I got lost in the B part which I knew I would, but had to go on so I invented something else instead, going with the chords. It was great practice!!! and lots of fun, too. I'm so proud that I had the courage to play lead!!! Even without being sure that I would play perfectly... A huge step forward for me!

[Bugs]

The best way to learn a tune is to listen to it about 200 times before playing it. It comes so much easier that way.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandolooter]

I totally agree...having it "in your head" is a huge bonus! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Michael H Geimer]

I sucessfully learned a basic version of Solider's Joy just this weekend. I was cleaning house, and I put on Butch Baldassari's 'You Can Play Bluegrass Mandolin' [Aside: I really like his simple versions. He's got a lot of taste IMO.] I'd listen to the whole segment on Solider's Joy, and then hit REWIND and play it over ... and over. I listened to him explain the chords, talk about the A part, the B part, etc.

But that evening with a mandolin, It didn't take much effort at all before I could really play the tune. It was so much easier to get my fingers 'in shape' when I knew what it all needed to sound like.

Hmmmm (a thought) ... I remember a conversation I had once with a friend, a musician of great skill. Specifically I rememebr this period when he would practice scat singing during his idle moments. He used numbers in place of words, because the different number names had many different syllables combination, but I supposed we all might scat differently. He claimed the scat practice helped him to imagine phrases and thus helped him find better phrases to use during his leads. I haven't ever tried this. YMMV, but it does sound like an interesting as a way of training the 'inner ear'.

- Benig

[duuuude]

For me it ain't really the comin' up with stuff in my head to play, it's gettin' the fingers to agree with my interpretation of the tune, they seem to have this way of kinda goin' off on their own, but when they do see things my way it's a whole lotta fun!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Dan Cole]

Not very well....

[Tom C]

Don Stiernberg once told me that there are 2 things to work on. One was determining the notes and the other was what to do with them. So you are playing in G. G-C-D let's say. For G chord for example, we can stay on one string and make up a 1 measure pattern using 3 notes on the G string.
dah -dahdah-dah-dah
G B D B G
Play that same pattern in each of the perspective chords as they change. Then start adding more notes, changing patterns etc....

[levin4now]

I think I'm awfully scared to find out some day that it's genetic, and I'll never have the ability. I watch people in sheer amazement when they perform a break.

[Flyer]

Ditto Levin4now....... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[dixiecreek]

I took a class on improv at mando camp, and they actually wrote out what notes worked with what chords and had us play them slowly (of course, everyone was playing something different, so it was a very noisy room, hehe)... but it's one thing to see the notes on the chalkboard and play them; it's another to just come up with it off the top of your head in a real playing situation. I agree w/ the idea that maybe it's just genetic, hehe

[Michael H Geimer]

Genetically limited? I seriously doubt that.

I used to be 'rhythmically challenged'. No one in the band would trust me to keep time (or to sing). I was considered 'too shaky', and opinions I would offer regarding the 'groove' were generally suspect.* But just this last weekend at a festival, a player to whom I really look up turned to me and whispered, "The timing is really shaky in this jam. We need someone solid like you in here."

What changed? Mostly, I got myself out of an enviroment that was unsupportive, and I refused to believe I was 'inherently limited'. It took two years of work against a metronome, but I broke through.

I see no reason why improvisation would be any different. After all, rhythm has always been thought of as a 'genetic trait', though I also dispute that stereotype.

- Benig

*I was playing in band with very 'straight' timing, and have since discovered that I tend to 'swing'. I now think this was the heart of the rhythmic disparity between the drummer and I.