Chris Thile on Mark O'Connor's retrospective

[Kirk Albrecht]

I got a copy of Mark O'Connor's 30-year retrospective double live CD last week, and it is causing major brain drain at work as I try to listen and be productive at the same time. Maybe I should take it home! The musicianship is of the highest caliber, and Chris Thile's playing is out of this world.

I know that David Grisman, Sam Bush, and Mike Marshall have pushed the boundaries of mandolin virtuosity, but is anyone doing anything remotely like what Chris Thile can do with those 8 strings? When he gets going, he is so fast, clean, yet within the music it is scary. I am still sad that Nickel Creek has decided to forgo most instrumentals (their strength, individually and collectively for my taste) for often lackluster vocal songs (but that's another thread, and I don't want to venture into the often emotion-charged morass of that theme!), but I am happy that Chris continues to find outlets to reveal the depth - and growing understanding - of a gifted virtuoso. This guys just blows me away when I hear him play.

[grandmainger]

Have you seen the WoodSongs Archive (http://www.woodsongs.com/store_woodsongs_artists.asp) with Chris? The show with him and Mike Marshall is fabulous stuff. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Tom C]

<span style='color:red'>Chris is a feak of nature. If we are lucky, maybe only one new player a generation rises to that capability. Ever hear that recording from the 2000 IBMA? Great googlymoogly!</span>

[John Zimm]

Yeah, Thile is the greatest. I am of the humble opinion that he can do anything he wants to on the mandolin. I share your feelings Kirkola about Nickel Creek's vocal songs-they need a singer or two in the band. Thile's playing though is top shelf. If only I had worked harder as a younger man... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

-John.

[Kirk Albrecht]

John -

Don't feel too bad - have you seen Chris' hands? Those long think fingers give him great stretch. I have short, stubby ones. Why is it that I love stringed instruments like guitars and mandos?

I honestly don't think that any amount of practice would put me close to him - though the more I play, the better I do sound.

Kirk

[John Flynn]

No on can argue about Thile's technical ability on the instrument. He is, as someone said, "a freak of nature" in that respect, perhaps the best there is. Just MHO, but unfortuately I have yet to hear him play anything that is all that interesting in a purely musical sense. He reminds me a bit of the first popular incarnation of Eddie Van Halen as a rock guitarist. He was a technical wizard who needed to slow down and make it more about quality than quantity.

[johnwalser]

Absolutely true story.

Last year at Handford, CA, Chris Thile asked for my advice!!!! He was playing wiffle ball at the park across the street, with Sean, before the Nickel Creek concert. Sean hit a ball and Chris asked me if it was foul or fair. I told him it was a foul!!!
Now he stopped short of asking me any highly technical mandolin questions, but it's a start.
John

[Kirk Albrecht]

Mando Johnny - I agree that sometimes he plays with too much sizzle, but I am impressed with his chops on "Not All Who Wanter Are Lost". He shows great sophisticaton in a variety of styles, and he's not always flashy, though when he is, boy - look out!

His Woodsongs shows with Mike Marshall and Bryan Sutton are both excellent.

[grandmainger]

I think the CD with Mike Marshall (into the cauldron) is a good demonstration of what he can do in a range of different styles, including classical. I'm not sure I picture what Mando Johnny means by "purely musical sense" though...
Still, a truly fabulous CD...

[John Flynn]

OK, I'll simplify it. As good as Thile is technically, I find it very dissappointing that I have never heard him do anything I would listen to a second time. I marvel over his technical acrobatics like everyone else. Yes, I even marvel at his range of musical styles like everyone else does. But everything I have heard him do, I listen to once and I am done. I would like to find it interesting, but I just don't. There are mando players I can listen to over and over, but he is not one of them.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

There are mando players I can listen to over and over, but he is not one of them.
You know, I never really thought about it that way, but I'd have to say I concur with this statement. I'm not really trying to start anything, but I know of all the mando players in my CD collection, I rarely listen to Chris Thile. I think to my ear, John Reischman is pretty darn cool, though.

[Kirk Albrecht]

Without a doubt, as my teenage sons would say, John Reischmsn is the bomb. Though personally I can listen to Chris Thile (and john Reischman for that matter) all day long.

[sandcastlefaith]

In my opinion, Chris Thile's playing requires a highly developed and trained musical ear, and a great understanding of music theory to even comprehend his improvisation and the detail and perfection of his compositions. My theory teacher and I have studied very closely many of his compositions, and they follow extremely advanced mathematical patterns, comparable only to Bach and perhaps Beethoven. To many people, his music might seem redundant, and uninteresting, but regardless of your personal opinions on his music, no one that is knowledgable about the matter would disagree with me when I say Thile is one of the, if the greatest musician of his generation.

[John Flynn]

In my opinion, Chris Thile's playing requires a highly developed and trained musical ear, and a great understanding of music theory to even comprehend his improvisation and the detail and perfection of his compositions. #My theory teacher and I have studied very closely many of his compositions, and they follow extremely advanced mathematical patterns, comparable only to Bach and perhaps Beethoven. #To many people, his music might seem redundant, and uninteresting, but regardless of your personal opinions on his music, no one that is knowledgable about the matter would disagree with me when I say Thile is one of the, if the greatest musician of his generation. - sandcastlefaith

Yeah, now that you mention it, when I am at the opera or the symphony or talking to my theory mentor, Thile's name comes up all the time...not! If you like Thile, fine, I agree, I admire him too. But it is laughable to try to justify your opinion based on the fact that you know a little theory. This is a musical instrument site, for cryin' out loud! There are a lot of people on this site who know a fair bit of theory and have been around a lot different kinds of music for many years. If you think you can talk down to people here based on your having taken some music lessons, you are mistaken.

Besides, music is an art, not a science. Really good music does not require a knowledge of theory or a trained ear to appreciate. Do you need a degree in literature to appreciate a good book? You like Thile, but I don't care so much for him. That's life. Cope with it.

[Greg H.]

Just to fan the flames, my thinking on Chris Thile is:

As a classical or jazz mandolinist he's little short of brilliant. His technique is absolutely flawless. That said, on those occasions when he plays bluegrass (or some variation thereof) his flawless technique becomes IMHO a detrement. He is so smooth and clean that there doesn't seem to be any emotion or feeling in his playing. If you listen to Bush, Grisman, Steffey, Reischman (or the original source, Monroe) there is a more tangable degree of feeling in their playing. None of them will ever show the degree of technical accuracy of Thile but, for me at least, their seems that more is being expressed in their playing. And for me, a large part of BG and OT music is in the expression.

Of course, that hasn't kept 'Not All Who Wander. . .' from living in my truck's CD player for weeks at a time.

[Patrick Gunning]

I too have noticed the emotional flatline you are speaking of in Thile's playing Greg. I recently was listening This Side and Tim O'brien's Two Journeys, both of which have versions of the song The House Carpenter (on tim's it is called Demon Lover) on them. Listening to Tim O'brien's emotionally rich, constantly varied, brilliant arrangement of that song, and then listening to Nickel Creek's flatline arrangement of the song - it was just a letdown. That is the difference between technical wizards like Thile and people like Tim O'brien and Darrell Scott whose emotions just jump out at you in songs, IMHO. Of course, that didn't stop me from spending some quality time with the Amazing Slow Downer to figure out Ode to a Butterfly. I just once would like to hear a Thile song and know that he felt something while he was playing it (though, in fairness, I haven't heard Thile's newest album, maybe it will change my mind).

[gdae85]

Have you noticed that CHRIS IS LEFTY?

[grandmainger]

music is an art, not a science. Really good music does not require a knowledge of theory or a trained ear to appreciate.

This is very true. I played 'Ode to a butterfly' once to my girlfirend's sister. Probably the first time she heard a mandolin.
About an hour later, she was humming it in the kitchen.
I have found this true (for me at least) for many songs by Chris Thile, where I instantly like them, which IMO is good enough to qualify as top notch art. By the way, I'm not implying that music is art only if one can like it instantly! Some has to grow on you.

On a slightly different style, the same phenomenon (ie instant love) happened with 'Buffalo Nickel' & 'When Joy Kills Sorrow' from Bela Fleck ( http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif Eeeck! Banjo ! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif #), on 'The Bluegrass Sessions'. Perhaps because his banjo playing is so mandolin-like http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Germain

[grandmainger]

Have you noticed that CHRIS IS LEFTY?

Had not noticed, but using your "main" hand to fret, rather than to pick makes more sense I reckon. The hand you write with is much stronger, and much more precise... Maybe that's the secret http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[sandcastlefaith]

Mando Johnny - I did not mean to offend anyone, and I also didn't mean to make it seem that I had a "Holier than thou" attitude about the matter. In fact, I'm sure that the average musician on this site probably knows more than I am. I was simply using the fact that I take music theory to say that my teacher and I studied a lot of Chris' work. Maybe you can cut me some slack and give me the benefit of the doubt that my post wasn't meant as a direct insult to you. I was only trying to lend my insight.

[sandcastlefaith]

By the way, in this picture of Thile and Sam Bush, they both appear to be playing right handed . . . ? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Thile and Bush (http://http://greenandgray.net/photos/mckelvey_thile_03.htm)

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

It is easy to forgrt Chris thile is still a very young man and has lots of time to mature emotionally. many players calm down, mature, and in general go through different phases in their playing. I'm real interested to hear how Chris plays when he is 35 or 40.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

And yes, to the original post, his playing on O'conners album is breathtaking. It seems impossible to be that clean and precise on a live album. it blows my mind. I don't really like the album as a whole, but chris is awe inspiring on it.

[Steve L]

Chris Thile's playing requires a highly developed and trained musical ear, and a great understanding of music theory to even comprehend his improvisation and the detail and perfection of his compositions. #...no one that is knowledgable about the matter would disagree with me when I say Thile is one of the, if the greatest musician of his generation.

Thile is a young and still developing musician whose well deserved reputation is based on his unquestionable command of the mandolin. #From the little I've heard however, I think if he were expressing essentially the same musical content on, for instance the guitar, no one would pay too much attention. #I think Sandcastlefaith's comments would be more applicable to someone of the stature of John Coltrane or Duke Ellington. #And I mean no disrespect to Sandcastle or Mr. Thile when I say that, in my opinion, he's not there yet.

Thile's doing good things, #making lots of people happy and deserves his success, but I think this level of hyperbole is a bit much.

[adgefan]

Thile is a young and still developing musician whose well deserved reputation is based on his unquestionable command of the mandolin. #From the little I've heard however, I think if he were expressing essentially the same musical content on, for instance the guitar, no one would pay too much attention.
I don't think that is completely fair. The attraction of Chris Thile to me is not just his mandolin playing but the whole composition and complexity of his music.

Take Raining At Sunset for example, seeing as most regard it as his best work so far. The interactions between the mando, guitar, fiddle and dobro on that tune are incredible. Stuart Duncan's break about half way through kills me everytime I hear it, it is just sublime. I have heard that tune hundreds of times, yet I never tire of it, and still hear new things in it even now.

It takes someone very intelligent indeed to compose something so intricate (I won't go as far as genius because he's still very young and can only get better).

I fully appreciate the opinion that his music is emotionally flat and too techinically perfect (I feel the same way about much of his first album), but to me the tracks on Not All Who Wander Are Lost and Stealing Second just ooze emotion, and that emotion is joy.

From the interviews I have seen with Chris, he has no reason to be writing songs about sadness, sorrow or pain. He has lived an extremely successful, happy life so far and in my opinion that comes across effortlessly in his music.

(And by the way, I know very little about music theory but to me Thile writes the best music I have ever heard...) #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Thile is amazing in every song he plays, although these are my favorites:

fishermans hornpipe - into the cauldron

club gross - not all who wander are lost

panhandle rag - leading off

And most of all... in concert! (gotta love those socks)

anyone seen "bluegrass journey"

[mandomick]

Seems like all that's missing in this thread is the often heard guitar player's quote....."I can do that"

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Seems like all that's missing in this thread is the often heard guitar player's quote....."I can do that"
Huh?

[craigtoo]

Although I agree with the comments regarding Thile's "scientific approach" to music,
I still love listening to his music. Did anyone ever get the impression when figuring out his tunes that he sometimes wrote tunes to develop a particular skill? Like the cross picking patterns in "Ode.." or "Song for a Young Queen"... It seems he was working on some really hard cross picking pattern and made a neat tune out of it.

One other thing about his playing that I try to emulate is his Tone. For instance, the opening to "The Lighthouse" song....has just incredible clean picking. In my opinion, he's got most people beat in the "clean sound" department.

my 2 cents..
craig

[mandoanon]

At Rockygrass last night, I was fortunate enough to listen to Chris and Bryan Sutton join Mark O'Connor and his trio. If listening to that set you did not hear emotion, you must be catatonic.

[jim_n_virginia]

Chris Thile's playing requires a highly developed and trained musical ear, and a great understanding of music theory to even comprehend his improvisation and the detail and perfection of his compositions. #...no one that is knowledgable about the matter would disagree with me when I say Thile is one of the, if the greatest musician of his generation.

Thile is a young and still developing musician whose well deserved reputation is based on his unquestionable command of the mandolin. #From the little I've heard however, I think if he were expressing essentially the same musical content on, for instance the guitar, no one would pay too much attention. #I think Sandcastlefaith's comments would be more applicable to someone of the stature of John Coltrane or Duke Ellington. #And I mean no disrespect to Sandcastle or Mr. Thile when I say that, in my opinion, he's not there yet.

Thile's doing good things, #making lots of people happy and deserves his success, but I think this level of hyperbole is a bit much.
Man I saw Nickle Creek in Norfolk earlier this years and I'm tellin you he is "THERE"

That boy can flat out play!

I am 46 years old. Been playing for 30 years. Been to probably hundreds of concerts.

The Nickle Creek concert was up there in the top five of any concert I have ever seen in my life. It was THAT good!

I was 10 feet away from Thile playing and all I could do was stand there slack jawed in awe of his ability.

That boy is still growing as a musician. He will without a doubt be one of the greatest mandolin players of our time, heck in my book he already is!

I'm telling you don't judge this kid on CD's alone, go see him in concert if you can.

[Peakbagr]

A lot of folks think Mark O'Connor was a once in a generation phenomenon. Even if you dismiss Chris Thile's obvious talents, the fact the M.O.C invited him to play on his retrospective says a lot about what O'Connor feels about him.

IMHO, lots of the negative comments about Chris Thile #come from folks who are much more comfortable with musicians with string ties, matching sharkskin suits, and white patent leather boots and belts.

[beanbass]

It seems to me that the majority of people who flame Thile are the ones that are threatened by him and his advanced abilities. Alot of guys don't like anyone who doesn't have that Bill Monroe ticka-ticka-ticka sound. The boy's a genius.

[Christine W]

-Here we go again
-These arguements or should I say "opinions" #always seem funny to me. #
- The man is awesome in every aspect of playing and whether someone chooses to listen to #him or not is thier own purogative. No flaming is needed.
- I wonder if Thile or whoever is being slammed at the moment ever reads these posts....I wonder if they care....if it hurts thier feelings.....it just makes me sad to hear some of the negative comments some people make, they come across as jealousy (it may not be but it seems that way).

Let's all stay supportive and postive.

P.S My mom always told me if you don't have anything nice to say...

[sandcastlefaith]

Yes, Chris has incredible tone, and his crosspicking patterns drive me insane! And seeing him live is indeed quite an experience, he plays that mandolin like he's Jimi Hendrix on the stage, and you can just tell the he's having so much fun when he's up there. I just hope I can one day be that expressive with my music, if not as talented all together. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[mandopete]

My 2 cents......

I have found that listening to a recording such as Not All Who Wander Are Lost is very demanding. #It took me four or five spins to start to really appreciate what the compositions and playing were about. #This might account for the fact that some people don't go back and listen again or that they may see a lack of emotion in the playing.

Bluegrass music is very emotional and the parts of jazz and rock that I enjoy are emotional as well. #I find it kind of a turn off to hear music that is too technical, like Bach for instance. #That doesn't mean it isn't good or even emotional, it just takes more out of the listener to get there.

[patsites]

I'll probably get hammered for this, but.....for all you Thile hater's...

What needs to be said about the Rockygrass show with Mark O' and Sutton is that these were the loudest cheers and the biggest crowd response of the entire weekend. Chris received huge applause after most every solo in the MIDDLE OF EACH SONG! Most of the audience even stood up after a couple of songs, and this is unheard of at Rockygrass, especailly for an afternoon show! Anyone who performs with MOC is at the absolute top of their craft, it was absolutely insane how expressive and clean Thile was with his solo's and at absolutely break-neck speeds. I cannot say I've seen another mandolin player capable of playing that intensely and emotional with Mark, not the Dawg, not Sam Bush, not Reischman, not Steffey, maybe Mike Marshall. If you've seen any of these other people perform with Mark, they are working so hard, and it shows on stage. With Thile, it looks effortless and he is having so much fun when he plays.

Thile may not be the best "bluegrass" or "monroe-style" player, because he plays so complicted at times, but for my money, he is an absolute stud! And lets face it, someone of his caliber is going to get bored real quick with fiddle tunes and 3 chord bluegrass songs, so if he over-complicates them, so be it, at least he can overcomplicate if he wants too.

If Sam Bush and David Grisman call him the greatest player of our generation, I have say they probably have the best credentials of anyone to make that call.

[Hondo]

mandopete,

This is interesting. For most of my 27 year+ music playing days, I've been a three-chord, bang on the guitar kinda guy, but in the past five years or so, I've become enamored with more "intricate" music. I enjoy listening to the way a piece is put together, like, for instance, in an Edgar Meyer composition, the way the bowed double bass weaves around the mandolin melody, and in turn, the mandolin plays off the double bass. I find it fascinating, probably all the more so because I can't fathom how it's done. The music's like a puzzle, and I keep finding new pieces to place in it. But what I truly find amazing is that I have a genuine, emotional response to it; it pulls at me. Dunno why, but there it is. What's funny is if you'd told me six years ago that I'd not only be listening to this music, but that I'd enjoy it, I would've said you're off your gourd. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Rod Freeland]

I like Edgar Meyer's characterization of Chris Thile: "a force of nature with a flatpick." (supposedly from the Chicago Tribune, but I saw it at http://www.performances.org/perform....eID=399 (http://www.performances.org/performances/performances.asp?performanceID=399) ) Also, Edgar Meyer is no slouch on the string bass!

[Hondo]

RodF,

Yep, Edgar's no slouch. He's the most relaxed performer I've ever seen. Just seems to drape himself around the bass. Not bad on the piano, too.

[mandomiss]

I also had the great privelage of seeing Chris Thile, Bryan Sutton, and the Hot Swing Trio at Rockygrass and all I can say is WOW. By the way, what was the name of that awesome caprice that Mark and Chris played?

[SteveW]

And I don't think it remiss to mention that it is because Thile is a young, exciting, charismatic player that he has attracted so many people, especially young people, to the mandolin. My teacher (a bluegrass player of long standing) has a slew of mandolin students now, and new ones signing up for lessons on a regular basis. One day I jokingly said it was all Chris Thile's fault, and he, not jokingly, said yes.

Plus, to laud Thile's playing as exceptional, even to call him the best of his (or our) generation, is not to diminish the abilities of other players in various genres and generations. Music is not a zero-sum game.

Steve

[grandmainger]

Thile is a young, exciting, charismatic player that he has attracted so many people, especially young people, to the mandolin.
Yup! And I'm one of them http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandopete]

The music's like a puzzle, and I keep finding new pieces to place in it.
That's it! #That is why it takes several "listens" to take it all in. #I find that I like a balance of raw, emotional, easy to understand type music as well as these more intricate forms. #Hell, who likes to eat the same old sandwich all the time?

For all of the talk about Chris Thile as a player, there has not been much commentary on his songwriting. #I'm not a big fan of Nickel Creek, I find the lyrics leave me a bit cold. #I have also found that the band material seems to lack the melodic focus that Chris puts into his solo material. #I actually fell asleep at one point at their show a couple years ago http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Any comments on his songwriting?

[sandcastlefaith]

I think he is an incredible songwriter. Maybe not quite the lyricist that some of the more popular singer/songwriters are, but he writes music that is incredibly complicated as far as melodies and harmonies, yet is not hard to follow for the average ear. Just the fact that he studied under Edgar Meyer tells you something.

Nate

[mcmando]

Isn't it great for the mandolin world that we have a young artist who inspires this much passionate discourse? Whether you believe he's the best mando player/musician/songwriter in our generation or not, it bodes well for our beloved instrument that he is drawing so many, and with such varied backgrounds and musical tastes. How many more awesomely talented mandolin players picking bluegrass standards in the traditional style do we need?

[mandoanon]

Hey Mandomiss - That song Mark and Chris played was Caprice No. 4 in D Major. It is on the 30 Year Retrospective CD. You can also go to Mark O'Connor's website and download the sheet music - if you are so inclined.

[adgefan]

For all of the talk about Chris Thile as a player, there has not been much commentary on his songwriting. #I'm not a big fan of Nickel Creek, I find the lyrics leave me a bit cold. #I have also found that the band material seems to lack the melodic focus that Chris puts into his solo material. #I actually fell asleep at one point at their show a couple years ago http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Any comments on his songwriting?
In Nickel Creek Sean is definitely the best "song" writer (in my opinion). He has a wonderful way with melody that is very similar to Elliot Smith whose music I love.

But Chris is definitely the best at "tune" writing. I've already mentioned how much I love the complexity and intricacy of Raining At Sunset. There's also a bit in Eureka! where it sounds like the banjo and mando are having a conversation, then all of a sudden the fiddle pops up and it turns into a soaring fiddle tune. And as for Wolfcreek Pass? Amazing. If Bach had written bluegrass that is how it would have sounded http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So yeah, for me his songwriting (or rather instrumental writing) is top class. He does write good songs too, Lighthouse, Green and Gray, Moonfleet Beach being a few of my favourites. #

And I'm also one of those people who only plays mando because Chris made me do it, so to speak. I know of many people who have got into playing all the bluegrass instruments, not just mando, because of his (or Nickel Creek's) influence.

[rhetoric]

QUOTE: His technique is absolutely flawless. That said, on those occasions when he plays bluegrass (or some variation thereof) his flawless technique becomes IMHO a detrement. He is so smooth and clean that there doesn't seem to be any emotion or feeling in his playing.

Awesome logic! "If you want to be a good mandolin player, you need to make mistakes." Based on this thinking I am the best mandolin player on the planet! Based on this thinking I play with boatloads of raw emotion!

Maybe Chris Thile isn't God, but he plays mandolin better than most people and when I hear guys on this website complaining about his musicianship, I can't help but think about the 8th grade school-girls criticising the devestatingly beautiful new girl because her teeth are too straight. Or the Prince telling Mozart, "Too many notes!"

You're right -- you don't have to like Thile, but you've got to do better than, "He plays too cleanly."

[davestem]

I like Chris' songwriting pretty well (on "Lighthouse" and "Green and Grey" as mentioned above), but I do believe his ability with lyrics are a relative weakness. #Though he is already a better lyricist than many popular musicians (Steve Miller, Ron Block, and Susan Tedeschi come to mind, for various reasons), I think he recognizes that there is an artistry to crafting vocal songs that requires work in the same way instrumental mastery does. #It encourages me to hear that Nickel Creek is concentrating on vocal songs. #As they learn more about the lyricist's craft, it may be that we will soon be treated to songs that combine the best of lyrical and instrumental artistry. #I have high hopes for their future as a "vocal" band.