Thinking about Waverly tuners

[Bernie Daniel]

Just a couple of quick questions.

I am thinking about upgrading my 2002 F-5 Fern with gold Waverly tuners I had few questions and also I was trying to get an opinion from others who already made the upgrade. Was it worth it -- how do you feel now?

A) If any of you have done this change over already can you still see impression marks from the Grovers (Schallers?) after installation of the Waverlys -- or does it cover completely?

B) Do you have to drill new holes?

C) Did you think that you could really feel an improvement in the tuning with the more expensive tuners? Now I realize that the Waverlys would not be say 9 to 10 times better that Grovers i.e, a direct 1:1 between cost and preformance - and I would not expect that. But did it make a perceptible difference?

[mandroid]

The holes must be precisely spaced and square to the back of the peghead, so original holes may need to be justified if any binding is present.

I purchased a Used Mix A5 with retrofitted Waverlys ,
the holes were not in adequate alignment/spacing for the Wav's precision machining
one tuner nearly wouldn't turn at all .
( that, an undisclosed detail, mando buy off the classifieds)
I downgraded to a set of Stew-Mac Elites , and they are OK.

I'd say Get a skilled technician to install them , their shifting the holes a hundredth of an inch or so can make all the difference .

[MikeEdgerton]

Bernie, I've been on the fence about Waverly tuners for my mandolin for so long that I consider myself an expert on being on the fence.

[Bernie Daniel]

Mike Edgerton: Bernie, I've been on the fence about Waverly tuners for my mandolin for so long that I consider myself an expert on being on the fence.

Yeah its irrational -- I would be smarter putting the $$ into a Carlton case but I would get a thrill from the Waverlys every day.

Aside from the money the biggest concern is that the indentations from the old tuners will show and that I don't want.

I think mainly I'm into the look anyway maybe I should just but a set of gold Elites.......now I'm on the fence.

[MikeEdgerton]

I wouldn't go for the Elites, personally I'm not a fan of those tuners. I already got the Calton case. Every time I saved enough pennies to buy the tuners they were out of stock and I had something else I had to buy. I just need to pull the trigger.

[mandroid]

Went for the Black Button thing co-ordinated with that schwartz carbon look.

the lesser tuners that little nylon bushing in those tuners tightens up the gear lash well enough.

and the minor peghead spacing situation that locked up the Ebony and Silver Waverlys,
was taken in stride by the replacements.

mandolin, now, works, even if I don't get any.. :crying:

[Mike Bunting]

One of the best investments I've ever made, in my humble opinion. Coupled with my Stroboflip, my mando sounds so good when it is in such good tune. My luthier guy installed them and I believe my MF5 accepted the Wavs with no mods. A couple times a year I have him check the intonation too so that my double stops are in tune too, e.g. my D string A has to be in tune with my open A, makes me crazy when they're out a little. The precision of the Wavs make that kind of tuning easy.

[Peakbagr]

I think they are wonderful. Look great, turn and tune easily, and most importantly, they hold a tuning better and longer than any other tuning machines on any instruments I've ever owned.

Are they worth the money? Up to the buyer, but I believe they are worth every penny they cost.

[Bernie Daniel]

Mike Bunting: One of the best investments I've ever made, in my humble opinion. Coupled with my Stroboflip, my mando sounds so good when it is in such good tune. My luthier guy installed them and I believe my MF5 accepted the Wavs with no mods. A couple times a year I have him check the intonation too so that my double stops are in tune too, e.g. my D string A has to be in tune with my open A, makes me crazy when they're out a little. The precision of the Wavs make that kind of tuning easy.


Sounds like they worked for you. Thanks for the insight.

What kind of tuners were on the Collings in the first place and after the installation of the Waverlys can you see indentations from the older tuners? Also, with the Stob can't you pretty much tune up the intonation using that?

[Bernie Daniel]

Peakbagr: I think they are wonderful. Look great, turn and tune easily, and most importantly, they hold a tuning better and longer than any other tuning machines on any instruments I've ever owned.


Intersting comment -- I've always been under the impression that the biggest factor in the mandolin going out of tune was the changing humidity -- but maybe it is the tuners afterall? At least you are suggesting that part of it is due to the tuners.

[Mike Bunting]

My Collings came with Gotohs but the buttons kept loosening so Bill Collings gave me a set of Shallers (sp.?) to replace those. They were OK but nothing like the Wavs. I never looked to see what marks were left by the old tuners, I've never noticed anything. I'm more interested by far in what my mandolin sounds like, not how it looks. Yes I could set intonation with my stroboflip but my guy can do it faster and better and I like to keep him happy. They are like Border Collies, if they don't have work to do, they'll just get into trouble!

[Michael Lewis]

Bernie, you are not too far from the Stew/Mac place, why not have THEM install the machines?

[Bernie Daniel]

Mike Bunting: They are like Border Collies, if they don't have work to do, they'll just get into trouble!


Border collies I understand.

[Mike Bunting]

I read your profile, I thought you might. We have one thing in common. :)

[Rob Powell]

Intersting comment -- I've always been under the impression that the biggest factor in the mandolin going out of tune was the changing humidity -- but maybe it is the tuners afterall? At least you are suggesting that part of it is due to the tuners.

There are a lot of factors combined in my experience. The tuners certainly have something to do with it in terms of gear slippage, temperature and humidity can wreak havoc depending on the mandolin, nut and saddle play a part in terms of slippery factor and the strings themselves factor in as well for stretchiness (yes, that's the technical term:) ) and age.

I have found that Sam Bush strings hold better for me after they are broken in than EXP's. I humidify my case and if I put the Weber in it's case after playing, it holds better than when I leave it out. It holds better inside than outside. It's a b**** to keep tune in high, humid temps outdoors. Which I think has more to do with the thin finish and the wood than the tuners.

I also find that I obsess over things like this to the point of being OCD, or as my wife puts it, ODD.:redface:

[PhilTod]

Mandolin1944-Your dog is a real beauty! Though I don't own one (I'm a Lab man) I've been around Borders and think they are amazing animals.

[Bernie Daniel]

PhilTod: Mandolin1944-Your dog is a real beauty!

Tx! That one is Gizmo who belongs to my son but I see him a lot! You see him trying to herd our friends horses.

Nice little fella you have there as well. If the people were half as noble and loyal as dogs what a wonderful world it would be!

[Bernie Daniel]

Michael Lewis: Bernie, you are not too far from the Stew/Mac place, why not have THEM install the machines?

Not a bad idea -- I don't get over to Athens too often but I might be there in January -- we are thinking about a survey of some sections of the Hocking Hills for a bluebird census -- that area is one of their main winter refuges for this area.

I wonder if McRostie does the Stew-Mac work? That would be cool.

[Michael Lewis]

I think Dan Earliwine, Todd Sams, and Eric Coleman do most of the repair work. I know Todd worked for quite a while with Don on product development, including the Waverly machines. All those folks are first rate and go the extra mile to make sure all is well before calling a job done.

[jimbob]

I have silver Waverly's on one mandolin and I really like them. They seem to turn very smoothly and look fantastic. I have no idea about hole patterns or any other specifics that would come into play if one wanted to install Waverly tuners in place of another brand, and I'm not sure I'd pay the extra money to swap them out, but if I had the opportunity to spec a new mando with Waverly's, I would do so.

[Steevarino]

I have two F-5 mandolins, and both of them have Waverly's on them. The MM came with them, and I bought a set for my Sargent F-5. Since they came on the MM, I didn't feel I was buying them "extra". But, since I had Cliff build the Sargent for me, and I sent him everything to build it, I had to shell out the extra dough for the Waverly's. At the time I really couldn't afford such a luxury, and I still can't, but I am glad I got them. I appreciate the quality every time I change strings, or even adjust the tuning on these instruments. They work like a dream. A little luxury in an otherwise pretty much unluxurious lifestyle (other than these two great mandolins). Yep, I'm glad I got 'em. I think that answers the question that was originally asked.

Steve Smith
www.CumberlandAcoustic.com
www.RedLineResophonics.com

[Fretbear]

Anyone who is reponsible for putting so many fine bridges on so many great mandolins deserves a little mando-luxury, Steve;
Happy New Year, everyone......

[Ken Olmstead]

You know for $200-300 I would buy them, but I can't quite cough up $500! I wonder what makes them so expensive. There are plenty of people buying them though so there is obviously something cool about them!

Steve, you do deserve that luxury!! You too Bernie!

[Don Grieser]

My Campanella Due came with Waverlies and it's the only mandolin I own that has them. I don't know if it's the mandolin or the tuners, but it really seems to stay in tune. They really smooth for getting in tune when I do have to tune. If you can swing it, get them.

[mandozilla]

The Thread that would not Go Away!

Sorry about resurrecting a very old thread but I'd really appreciate your input. :redface:

The quality built mandolin that I own is a keeper for life. I'm not sure exactly what brand of tuners are on it, they look like Grovers to me. I'm not real happy with the tuners on my mandolin. They slip and are sometimes very hard to turn and I often go sharp and have to tune back down and that really irritates me. I've tried all the suggestion on the Cafe about tuner care but perhaps after 27 years they are just worn out.

The mandolin is 27 years old. I'm 56 years old. Since I plan on keeping this mandolin until my Big Dirtnap, and don't see MAS in my future, I'm gonna splurge and get me some Waverly's on this bad boy.

I've done a lot of 'weekend luthiery' and I have the 'ultimate tool set'. I've changed out a bunch of tuners in the past 40 years, all with great success, so I have confidence in my skill level regarding tuner replacement.

HOWEVER, I'm a bit concerned about all I've read on the Cafe and at the Stew-Mac site about proper installation of Waverly tuners. My luthiery skills are not up to the task of redrilling the tuner holes on my mandolin should that be neccessary...I could do it and I have a descent drill press but if I screwed up my peghead I would be really, really, bummed. :crying:

So, the question I have is...What do you guys (and gals) think. When I get them should I try to install them myself and if by chance, they fit, Eureka! I did it! Or should I just have a 'real' luthier handle the installation from the get go? What are some of the installation problems you've encountered and how did you overcome them? Oh, and what do you think it might cost, ballpark, to get 'er done?

Thanks for the help. :grin:

~o) :mandosmiley:

[onassis]

Just my $0.02, but it seems like after springing for Waverly tuners, you might as well pay to have them professionally installed. I wouldn't think it would cost very much.

[man dough nollij]

They slip and are sometimes very hard to turn and I often go sharp and have to tune back down and that really irritates me.


Hey 'Zilla, congratulations on your recovery program. I haven't seen seventeen creepy laughing smilies on your posts for months!

Because of the way the worm gear tuners work, it is mechanically impossible for the tuners to 'slip', or go flat. It is also physically impossible for tuners to go sharp. I have an Eastman with me that likes to go sharp while out of the case, but it's all about humidity and the dimensions of the neck. There is no way the tuners could magically tighten themselves. Nope.

(:)):)):)):)):)))

[Rob Gerety]

I have Waverlys on one of my guitars and they are a absolute pleasure to use. Hard to go back to lessor tuners. I would second the suggestion to have them professionally installed. Everything has to be done correctly or they will bind and you won't get the pure joy of these wonderful tuners.

[Michael Lewis]

Mark, I would check the fit of the new Waverlys to your headstock, they might just go on with no modification. You can tell if they fit well because they will easily slip into position with no pressure. If they offer even slight resistance I would have them installed. To move a string post hole it must be filled with a glued in dowel and re drilled. It is a simple process but must be very accurate.~o)

[mandolirius]

You know for $200-300 I would buy them, but I can't quite cough up $500! I wonder what makes them so expensive. There are plenty of people buying them though so there is obviously something cool about them!

Steve, you do deserve that luxury!! You too Bernie!

Having had them, and not had them, I think it's like this - before you have them it does seem like a lot of dough and you wonder why they're so much more than other tuners. After you have them, you may still think they're expensive but you don't care anymore. They're that good.

[Bernie Daniel]

Two things.

1) My understanding is that if you do happen to need new holes that these have to be VERY percisely drilled as the slightest misalignment will cause binding under tension;

2) However, I don't think that new Waverlys on a modern-era mandolin will require any drilling at all...

I think the was Mike Bunting's opinion and he had a Collings fitted up with them. Also somewhere in the thread Michael Lewis who is a luthier impled the same thing. I'm sure one of the luthiers or repair folks will chime in here.

Also don' t you have Gibson F-model? If so you should be golden. The MM and DMM models come with Waverlys and I'm sure Gibson does not cut two different sets of hole on their headstocks.

[mandroid]

As to point 2,
:disbelief: don't be so sure that if a lesser precision, slight misalignment tolerant, tuner-set works adequately in the holes drilled , that you can just drop the Waverlys in those holes . a bit of shifting the spacing may still be needed .. a hundredth or so, of an inch, may be enough, but it will matter.
If you go for the tuners, add a bit more $ for a professional to do the installation.

:popcorn:

[Bernie Daniel]

mandroid: don't be so sure that if a lesser precision, slight misalignment tolerant, tuner-set works adequately in the holes drilled , that you can just drop the Waverlys in those holes

You could be right in some/many cases.

But my point to mandozilla was he is planning on putting these on a Gibson F-5 (I think) and Gibson drills the headstocks to fit Waverlys -- the MM/DMM have them right out from the factory.

Also, I now know of at least one case where the upgrade worked smoothly -- guy from KY switched up from Schallers to Waverlys on his Gibson Goldrush with no sweat or issues whatsoever (this happened after I started this thread).

But certainly I agree a safer way to go is to have a pro do it. Besides than if things go wrong you have someone else to blame.

[mandroid]

So long as other readers know.. "guy from KY switched up from Schallers to Waverlys on his Gibson Goldrush with no sweat or issues whatsoever " is called anecdotal evidence of a single situation .:disbelief:

I don't know what tooling Gibson uses uses in their factory. if they have a special Gang Drill machine tool that consistently holds the headstock, each being identical to the last , and drills all 8 holes in at once, in precisely the same place, that may be OK,

That kind of jigs and tooling works in mass production of metal machine parts.. why spare car parts fit. ;)

StewMac's allignment jig , by contrast is a block of phenolic with 4 holes in it,
and a pin in the 1st one drilled guides where #4 is drilled, after clamping the block in place by hand,
then the 2 in between get drilled , but each hole is drilled separately, and so minor errors in each can creep in.

.. just offering a bit of skeptic's realism,.. I'm done now .. :popcorn:

[Bernie Daniel]

Mandroid: I don't know what tooling Gibson uses uses in their factory. if they have a special Gang Drill machine tool that consistently holds the headstock, each being identical to the last , and drills all 8 holes in at once, in precisely the same place, that may be OK,


Well I think we can say with something approaching 100% certainty that:

1) Gibson probably does not use a Stew-Mac jig; and
2) that they probably also know what they are doing making mandolin headstocks.

If you are wondering about fit of the Waverlys then instead of speculating just go to the tuner specs they are given in great detail on the the Stew-Mac web site (mandolin tuners/specs).

Do this and you will see that Waverly, Schaller, and Gotoh all use exactly the same 23.01 mm spacing between the shafts, all three use exactly the same 5.99 mm diameter shaft on the peg.

The length of the shaft ranges from 25.98 mm (G) to 25.65 mm (W) to 25.78 (S) -- hardly an issue.

But the total length of the sleeve barrels are slightly different. But most important the external diameters of the sleeves vary. So care would be necessary in fitting that properly.

But a Waverly sleeve (external di = 8.33 mm) would readily drop into a hole cut for a Schaller sleeve (external di = 8.69 mm). Therefore no drilling would be required -- in fact there would be ~0.18 mm play around the hole -- or roughly twice the thickness of a piece of typewriter paper (~0.09 mm).

Whether you would have to deal with that play or would need to be tried. In the one case that I know about it was not an issue -- anecdotal or not I have held and tuned that mandolin -- the Waverlys work great.

There would be no issues with unsightly screw holes to worry about filling with a Schaller to Waverly conversion as the latter base plate is longer. Not sure about the Grover.

[mandozilla]

Wow! Thanks for all the info and advice guys. As near as I can measure, the Waverly dimensions match the Schallers that they will replace. I think what I'll do is when I get them I'll see if they fit easily like Michael L. suggested. If they do I'll install them myself but if there is the slightest difficulty, it'll be going to the shop. Thanks again guys, I'll load up some photos and comments when I get 'er done. :grin:

~o) :mandosmiley:

[mandroid]

Difference is Waverly string capstans are dead square to the base plate , tight machined tolerances mean that it has to stay that way, or something binds. lower price stuff has looser tolerances ,
they will adjust to minor discrepancies , instead, with better machine tightness, the minor adjustments have to be done to the headstock holes, in that case .
a few file strokes in the wood would perhaps cure that , drop a bit more for the guy to insure they work at their best.

Precision measurements.. to 3rd decimal point [thousandths] can't be done with a tape-measure..

[Bernie Daniel]

mandroid: a few file strokes in the wood would perhaps cure that , drop a bit more for the guy to insure they work at their best.


Yup. And that could be tricky.

But luckly in the case of Schaller to Waverly (which is the case for most Gibsons) you won't have to deal with that. Because if the headstock hole is drilled big enough for the Schaller sleeve then Waverly sleeve will drop in easily as they are smaller external diameter (see my earlier numbers above).

So that will give them just a tad bit of play in the hole and will address the issue of the precise machining of the Waverly that you mentioned -- i.e., give a bit of tolerance for it.

So I think that is why the Scahaller to Waverly is a good one and should go pretty well.

The Grover to Waverly might be a bit more of a hassel and require someone with more experience and better tools.

In fact the revival of this string makes me think I'm finally going to bite the bullet and pull the Schallers off my Fern and put on Waverlys -- I notice that Stew-Mac does not seem to sell Gold-plated Waverlys -- who does?

[Michael Lewis]

Stew/Mac has usually had gold Waverlys when I wanted them. By the way, they are the ONLY source for Waverly machines.

Regarding a previous post suggesting that loose bushings would compensate for inaccurately drilled holes, they will if you lock them in place so there is accurate support of the string posts. You would need something like Bondo, epoxy putty, wood dough, or some other fairly hard filler to support the bushings. If the bushings can float they will allow the string posts to lean and then they will bind. It is important that the string posts be supported perpendicular to the backing plate. With as little as .003" or .004" misalignment you can have difficulties.

[Bernie Daniel]

Michael Lewis:You would need something like Bondo, epoxy putty, wood dough, or some other fairly hard filler to support the bushings. If the bushings can float they will allow the string posts to lean and then they will bind. It is important that the string posts be supported perpendicular to the backing plate. With as little as .003" or .004" misalignment you can have difficulties.


Thanks for that great comment Michael. That is exactly what I thought too and was thinking about actually doing when I move up from the Schallers but I did not feel qualified to suggest it as I had no prior experience to back me up! :mandosmiley:

[jim_n_virginia]

I think what I'll do is when I get them I'll see if they fit easily like Michael L. suggested. If they do I'll install them myself but if there is the slightest difficulty, it'll be going to the shop.


Thats what I would do. Just see if they fit first before sending to a shop.

If I drilled my headstock and screwed it up I would be WAY more than bummed!!

I would probably tear my hair, cover my face is ashes and wear a sack cloth for a month! LOL!

[Ivan Kelsall]

On the grounds that 'you only live once' - if you can afford Waverlys,buy 'em & enjoy 'em. I certainly would if i though that they were required on either of my 2 instruments. Currently the Schallers on mine work perfectly since i applied a bit of Frank Ford's (Frets.com) wisdom & slackened the centre screws off & re-tightened them 'just enough' .They're now as smooth as silk
& most certainly don't slip,
Ivan;)

[mandroid]

N.B. Back of the headstock matters, that is where the tuners go, of course.
flat, so no bending of the the baseplate, holes perpendicular, 90.0 degrees, to that flat surface, & spacing dead-on.

on my Mix A, the hole spacing minor offset damaged the tuners, stew mac had to service them ,
so a word to/from the wizened , don't force fit anything , none at all ..

[Mike Bunting]

so a word to the wizened ..

:)

[Rob Gerety]

If I drilled my headstock and screwed it up I would be WAY more than bummed!!


Yea, on this same theory I took my best guitar to a local luthier/repair guy to install a strap pin in the butt end. Seems impossible to mess that up - but no, he managed to put it slightly off center and he drilled the hole too small and twisted the button off the stud trying to put it in. Basically he made a mess of it.

[man dough nollij]

Difference is Waverly string capstans are dead square to the base plate , tight machined tolerances mean that it has to stay that way, or something binds. lower price stuff has looser tolerances ,
they will adjust to minor discrepancies , instead, with better machine tightness, the minor adjustments have to be done to the headstock holes, in that case .



That makes a lot of sense. Since they are so critical, wouldn't it be good to slightly overdrill the holes and set the bushings in place with a slow setting glue like epoxy? :confused: