What Have I Got?

[journeybear]

I know this sounds a bit dolt-ish, but ...

I have a couple of mandolins, and I don't know what they are. No labels, hence no serial numbers. Both are Gibson A models, both have f-type sound holes. Both pegboards say Gibson in curved script straight across (90 degrees to the neck). Both look to be from the 1940s - 1950s.

One is electric and may be an EM150 - Bakelite pickup set between the upper ends of the soundholes, pale yellow tone and volume knobs - though until I joined up here a little over a year ago I didn't know they existed, and thought someone had just stuck a pickup on a mandolin. It has carved top and back, mahogany/brown sunburst finish.

The other has carved top but flat back, mostly black sunburst finish.

You know, you buy something new, you know what you're getting; you buy something used, you can't always tell. Unless you know enough about these things. They say you never know until you ask (that's not true - you never know until you ask and someone who knows his stuff answers), so I'm asking.

Thanks!

[allenhopkins]

The non-electric one is either an A-40 (no binding on the back) or an A-50 (bound both front and back), or, much less likely, an A-1.

Take a look at the pix in Alan Bond's Mandolin Museum, (http://home.comcast.net/~ukecat/mandolin/mandos3.html) and see if you find a match. Or, better still, post pix of both of them and I'm sure one of the Cafe's experts will have no trouble ID-ing them.

[journeybear]

The non-electric one is either an A-40 (no binding on the back) or an A-50 (bound both front and back), or, much less likely, an A-1.

Take a look at the pix in Alan Bond's Mandolin Museum, (http://home.comcast.net/~ukecat/mandolin/mandos3.html) and see if you find a match. Or, better still, post pix of both of them and I'm sure one of the Cafe's experts will have no trouble ID-ing them.

Hi Allen

Thanks for your response. It's taken a while for me to respond because I had to go over to my climate controlled storage unit, take some pics, buy the right interface, download the software, figure out how to use all this technology :disbelief: - Whew! I'm whipped! :sleepy:

According to the binding status and flat back, the acoustic seems to be an A-40 all right. I'm assuming the electric is an EM-150 - note carved back. If anyone wants to confirm this analysis, and even estimate their ages, I'd appreciate it.

Yours in mandolinosity,

JB

[barney 59]

Can you make out any numbers branded inside the mandolin? There will be either a serial # or or a production number or being Gibson, and all things are possible, nothing. Without a number I'm guessing 40's. Is the strap really attached to the f-hole? If so you might consider an alternative.

[atetone]

Yeah,,, that strap attached through the f-hole is giving me the shivers!

[jeff mercer]

Hey, Journeybear.
Your EM-150 is post 1949, which is the year Gibson changed to the P-90 pickup ( the type that's on yours ).
I think the open-geared, uncovered tuners may date it to 50's, maybe very early 60's vintage, as somewhere soon after that, they switched to the guitar-like enclosed "Kluson" brand machine heads on EM-150,A-40s & 50s & possibly the entire mandolin line.

Without a factory order number, or a serial number, your A-40 would be difficult to date, although it has the mid/late 40s style of headstock logo used by Gibson at that time.
Many Gibson instruments didn't get actual paper inner labels, but there is usually a marking somewhere, be it a factory order number ( stamped inside), or a serial number ( back of headstock, usually).

Have a closer look, & let us all know if you find something :) !

One thing I DO know..if either/both mandolins were mine, I'd be stringing 'em up and PLAYING 'em :mandosmiley: !
Cheers, Journeybear
Jeff

[Jim Garber]

Elderly has this 1953 EM-150 (http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-4971.htm) with similar knobs to yours.

[brunello97]

Here is a link to a good site with a lot of information on Gibson electrics-including mandolins. You need to scroll around a bit, but it is worth it.

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson.html

I still have an old EM150, which was my first mandolin. Plays like butter. I love them. The P90s are pretty noisy pickups but the tone quality is what it is.

Mick

[jim_n_virginia]

Yeah,,, that strap attached through the f-hole is giving me the shivers!

GOOD LORD I have never seen a strap attached to an F hole! :disbelief:

[journeybear]

Can you make out any numbers branded inside the mandolin? There will be either a serial # or or a production number or being Gibson, and all things are possible, nothing. Without a number I'm guessing 40's. Is the strap really attached to the f-hole? If so you might consider an alternative.

Nope, nothing branded or written inside, as far as I can see, and as I said in my first post, no label, in either. Nothing stamped in the back of the headstock, either. :disbelief: I don't know whether this is unusual or typical, and I must say that having a label would have rendered all of this moot. ;)

The strap is not attached per se. There is a knot tied in the end of this woven cotton strap, just large enough to keep from slipping out. There's no button on the tailpiece, and I had to come up with something. This is really a pretty benign application, however unorthodox. I tend to use fabric for straps, and sometimes it's tricky figuring out how to attach them. The scarier part here, actually, is the use of a zip-tie at the neck end. :whistling: Seems to me it's a design flaw that became a tradition with Gibson and other mfrs, this lack of a place to attach a strap. On my F-12 I just made a loop to go around the scroll. No such luck with an A model.

I appreciate your concern. One does want to see these fine old instruments are being taken care of in a resposible manner. :)

[journeybear]

Hey, Journeybear.
Your EM-150 is post 1949, which is the year Gibson changed to the P-90 pickup ( the type that's on yours ).
I think the open-geared, uncovered tuners may date it to 50's, maybe very early 60's vintage, as somewhere soon after that, they switched to the guitar-like enclosed "Kluson" brand machine heads on EM-150,A-40s & 50s & possibly the entire mandolin line.

I looked at the 1953 EM-150 at Elderly, and it has the enclosed tuners, but otherwise it is very like mine. So I'm thinking mine is a little earlier, but just a couple/few years.

Without a factory order number, or a serial number, your A-40 would be difficult to date, although it has the mid/late 40s style of headstock logo used by Gibson at that time.
Many Gibson instruments didn't get actual paper inner labels, but there is usually a marking somewhere, be it a factory order number ( stamped inside), or a serial number ( back of headstock, usually).

Have a closer look, & let us all know if you find something!

My goodness, such a flurry of activity, after weeks of nuttin'! :disbelief: Meanwhile I've returned these instruments to their climate controlled storage facility. I SUPPOSE I could drag 'em out and have another look-see, but I really don't recall seeing any distinguishing numerifications whatsoever.

One thing I DO know..if either/both mandolins were mine, I'd be stringing 'em up and PLAYING 'em!
Cheers, Journeybear
Jeff[/

I would, too, if I hadn't gone and acquired some better, er, more reliable instruments. Acoustically, a 1917 A with a rich full-bodied tone that beats anything I can get out of that flat-backed A-40. Electrically, an Epiphone solid-body Mandobird and, recently, a Fender semi-hollow 5-string Mandocaster, both of which kick serious butt in rock and blues applications, :mandosmiley: even atmospheric mood uses. :cool: Until I can get my solid body mandolin/mandola double neck built, these will do. I am NOT going to yield to temptation and get a solid body eight string. Just can't keep buying more 'n' more in a vain attempt to replace my stolen F-12 :crying: - but that is two whole other threads, qv. :whistling:

[journeybear]

Elderly has this 1953 EM-150 (http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-4971.htm) with similar knobs to yours.

Thanks. As I told Jeff, I looked at this, and it is very similar, except for the enclosed tuners - mine are exposed. Also mine's knobs have no numbers on them. I'm guessing mine is just a couple/few years older.

In the next day or few I will go to the aforementioned climate controlled storage facility and take another look for any distinguishing marks that have eluded my perceptions so far. ;)

[journeybear]

Here is a link to a good site with a lot of information on Gibson electrics-including mandolins. You need to scroll around a bit, but it is worth it.

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson.html

I still have an old EM150, which was my first mandolin. Plays like butter. I love them. The P90s are pretty noisy pickups but the tone quality is what it is.

Mick


"Lot of information" - you ain't kiddin'! I'll have to look at that in the morning with a few hours of sleep :sleepy: and a cup of coffee or two in me. ~o)

And I thought THIS was cool: http://www.gibson.com/Files/downloads/bluebook/GibsonSERIALNUMBERS.pdf

Well, it is, and very helpful for dating instruments.

Speaking of tone quality, I did get years of use out of the EM-150, but it took a lot of tweaking and some wrassling to get it to sound good. That also meant going single-string, as it sounding pretty funky (and not good funky) if the pairs were even just a hair out of tune, and also stuffing bandanas into the f-holes to reduce feedback. My Mandobird and Mandocaster are more like it, taking advantage of years of technological advances. Even so, these lag behind what's available for electric guitarists, due to much greater demand and interest in that area. Someday we'll catch up, it is my fervent hope, so that one could walk into any music store and find what one wants without much hassle, nor funny looks neither!

[journeybear]

GOOD LORD I have never seen a strap attached to an F hole! :disbelief:

Well, as I told barney 59, the strap isn't attached. There is a knot tied in the end of this nice soft woven cotton strap, just large enough to keep from slipping out, and the instrument just hangs there. There's no button on the tailpiece, so I had to come up with something. This is really pretty unobtrusive and hasn't caused any damage, though I guess it looks funny to SOME people - mandolinists, mostly ;). I tend to use fabric for straps, and sometimes it's tricky figuring out how to attach them. The scarier part here, actually, is the use of a zip-tie at the neck end. :whistling:

Seems to me it's a design flaw that became a tradition with Gibson and other mfrs, this lack of a place to attach a strap. On my F-12 I just made a loop to go around the scroll. No such luck with an A model. Well, YOU have an F model, so you know how easy it is to deal with. Actually, the strap I had on my F-12 when it was stolen :crying: was a dog leash! I cut the metal clip off and attached that end to the tailpin endjack with thickly insulated wire, and slipped the wrist loop over the scroll. It was actually a sweet little job and worked A-OK. Cost all of two bits at a yard sale, to boot. :))

[journeybear]

[QUOTE=barney 59;617403]Can you make out any numbers branded inside the mandolin? There will be either a serial # or or a production number or being Gibson, and all things are possible, nothing. Without a number I'm guessing 40's.QUOTE]

OK, I took another look, and this is what I found - or didn't. The EM-150 has nothing whatsoever stamped inside. The A-40 has, inside the treble side f-hole, a stamped 12, then about 1/2" blank space, then 10 written in red ink. What does this mean? Probably nothing, I expect.

I'm guessing mid-40s on the A-40, late-50s on the EM-150.

Funny how my 1917 A mandolin and 1916 H-2 mandola have THEIR labels still in them. Did glue technology get hinky mid-century? One can't help but wonder ... :confused:

[John Rosett]

The acoustic mandolin is an A-00 from the late 40's-early 50's. That's the only mandolin with a carved top and flat back that Gibson ever made, as far as I know. Gibson didn't introduce the A-40 until after WWII, and they were using the modern logo by then.

[journeybear]

The acoustic mandolin is an A-00 from the late 40's-early 50's. That's the only mandolin with a carved top and flat back that Gibson ever made, as far as I know. Gibson didn't introduce the A-40 until after WWII, and they were using the modern logo by then.

Are you sure? I'm looking at Alan Bond's Mandolin Museum http://home.comcast.net/~ukecat/mandolin/mandos3.html and it looks like the A-00 there has no binding on the top, while mine does. I was told binding on the top but not the back would make it an A-40 (binding top and back makes it an A-50). I do see what you mean about the logo, though. Maybe this is some sort of transitional piece? :confused:

Oh, I wish the label were in it! But then, I would never have learned as much as I have in this process, frustrating though it be ... :disbelief:

[John Rosett]

I meant to say "late 30's to early 40's", not "late 40's to early 50's". I see what you mean about the pictured mandolin. Gibson did alot of strange things through the years. My lap steel is a 1947 Gibson BR-4, which they only made that year. They came with and without top binding, with no change in the model number. Maybe the A-00 pictured at Alan Bond's is a first year model and they made them with and without top binding. Still, as far as I can figure out, the A-00 was the only carved top, flat back mandolin that Gibson ever made. Also, I'm pretty sure that the A-40 was not made until after 1947, when Gibson stopped using a script logo and went to the more modern logo. I'm also pretty sure that none of the A-00's or A-40's ever had an actual label inside. The exception to this is a 1937ish A-1 that had a label inside the bass f-hole that said "Gibson Inc. made in the U.S.A. Kalamazoo, Mich" (pictured). This mandolin also had a 50's logo, but it had been back to the factory in the 50's for repairs and refinish.
There's certainly not as much research that's been done on these plain, depression era A models as there has been on the more desireable F models because they're just not as collectable. I've always really liked them though.

[John Rosett]

Here's a really good resource for dating vintage gibson mandolins:
http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson8.html#a00

[journeybear]

Gibson did a lot of strange things through the years.. Really? I hadn't noticed ;)

As far as I can figure out, the A-00 was the only carved top, flat back mandolin that Gibson ever made. Also, I'm pretty sure that the A-40 was not made until after 1947, when Gibson stopped using a script logo and went to the more modern logo. I'm also pretty sure that none of the A-00's or A-40's ever had an actual label inside.

That's just wacko! Never mind for our purposes, looking back in time, what about at the time, guarding against losing sales to fakes?

There's certainly not as much research that's been done on these plain, depression era A models as there has been on the more desirable F models because they're just not as collectable. I've always really liked them though.

I like mine OK, but I tell you, I am so happy with my 1917 A, I ALMOST don't miss my long-lost F-12. :crying: I started off with a similar A, though likely much younger, and always liked its lower end response. It took a lot of playing to get the F-12 to sound good, and in so doing evolved a symbiosis I have yet to achieve with this A, but there's time ... This A-40 or A-00 was an immediate replacement so I could continue gigging after the F-12 was stolen :crying: and it served well, actually sounded just right with the Cajun music I was playing last winter. While keeping an eye on ebay for the F-12 I came upon the A, which I got for a reasonable price, and sounded better than the A-40 or A-00 even with old strings.


Here's a really good resource for dating vintage Gibson mandolins:
http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson8.html#a00

Yeah, someone gave me that before, and that helped reinforce the notion that it's an A-40, going by the binding. I'm looking more closely at it now, and I see that the A-40 was introduced in 1948, with carved back, and there were no changes throughout its production life until discontinued in 1971. So this can't be that.

The A-00 (and the A-50, for that matter) started in 1933 with OVAL holes and switched to f-holes in 1934. It had a flat back, originally, then changed to a carved back in 1936. You are correct in saying it's the only Gibson mandolin with a flat back (the H-0 mandola is the only other mandolin family instrument with a flat back). Therefore, I think it's safe to say, from this information - A body, flat back, f-holes - that it's an A-00 from 1934 or 1935, considerably older than I'd thought. I'm going with 1935 for numerological reasons. :whistling:

And finally! One mystery solved! Yay! :mandosmiley: Thank you all so much. And now for the EM-150, though I can live with the estimated 1948 - 1952, um, Truman's second term ...

[Steve Ostrander]

If I understand correctly, you have a knot in the strap wedged into the f-hole? That is a disaster waiting to happen.

[journeybear]

Why? It's not exerting any pressure. It's not "wedged" but slipped through at a wider point then slid down, much as a button through a button hole. There is no tailpin button, so I have no other way to hold up the lower end of the instrument.

[barney 59]

I guess if your up late and don't wish to wake the kids the knot in the f hole will definately dampen the sound. The area around the f-hole is relatively fragile and ya know you might be playing and have the cough due to colds or something...a good sneeze and Pop!

[journeybear]

I've never noticed any dampening. As I've mentioned, repeatedly, it just hangs from the knot, loosely. I used this approach for years with the EM-150, and I've not seen any damage - and with its electronics, that's heavier than the A-00. I switched the strap over to the A-00 because I wasn't using the EM-150, and have experienced no ill effects whatsoever.

But I've got to say, I'm tired of talking about the strap. This thread was started to identify and date two mandolins. One of those has been identified and dated close enough to my satisfaction, the other is still being pinned down, though we've been getting close. It's down to the volume and tone control knobs, if anyone is interested.

All other comments and queries concerning off-topic issues such as how I've managed to put a strap on a mandolin with a clamshell tailpiece are not welcome, unless you have a useful suggestion as to how to achieve that. Even that is off-topic, but I'm open-minded enough to accept such pieces of well-considered advice, as, when all is said and done, I wouldn't mind having an optimal solution and forgo the current temporary but effective one. This isn't intended for you, Barney, because you've clearly taken some time to phrase your messages with some consideration, and even some humor.

But some people have just jumped in here, shooting their mouths off, and it's pretty rude. It would be really nice if people would take the time to read the first post in a thread so they would understand what is being discussed. And read subsequent posts as well, so their posts don't reiterate what has already been said. And apply the Golden Rule. Think how YOU would like it if someone talked to YOU the way you have to me. And think creatively; paint outside the lines. There are more ways than one to skin a cat, or strap a mandolin. There's no such thing as The One Right Way to do things. There are reasons for alternatives, and reasonable alternatives. Don't knock 'em if you haven't tried 'em.

So, it's an EM-150 from Truman's second term, that's as far as we've gotten, so far ...

[John Rosett]

Here's a useful strap suggestion: On the back of the tailpiece (against the side) there's a small raised channel that you can slip a Leather strip , shoe string, etc through. Then you can attach that to a strap.
Elderly just put a "1934-35 A-00" up for sale. It looks just like yours. I really like those dark 30's sunbursts, but I think their asking price is alittle high.
http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-5233.htm

[journeybear]

Here's a useful strap suggestion: On the back of the tailpiece (against the side) there's a small raised channel that you can slip a Leather strip , shoe string, etc through. Then you can attach that to a strap.
Elderly just put a "1934-35 A-00" up for sale. It looks just like yours. I really like those dark 30's sunbursts, but I think their asking price is alittle high.
http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-5233.htm

Will you look at that? That's my baby! :grin: Thanks - I do believe we have a winner! The finish on mine is more of a yellow sunburst. You're right, that's prolly a bit much for it - IMO, the flat back doesn't help the sound much - but I've found Elderly's prices typically run high. Then again, it is in good shape. Mine has a crack in the back, which was repaired but not very well, as it's come apart again.

I'll try that with the strap. Not sure how much room there is between the tailpiece and the body, and I think that may be why I devised the current approach for the EM-150, then just switched it over to the A-00 without really looking. This is moot right now, as Mindy Lynn is in storage while I enjoy the conviviality of my 1917 A. :mandosmiley: :mandosmiley:

[mandroid]

Why? It's not exerting any pressure. It's not "wedged" but slipped through at a wider point then slid down, much as a button through a button hole. There is no tailpin button, so I have no other way to hold up the lower end of the instrument.

On My EM conversion A 50, I pass a cord thru the tunnel formed in the tail-piece, then tie a figure-8 knot in the cord .(also called a 'stopper knot')

on my A40, 30 years ago, I made a fancy leather D shaped button and laced a piece of flat leather lace thru the same style of Waverly tail-piece-tunnel.

[A strap Button went on the heel/neck block of the neck of that one , haven't gotten around to it on the 50]

in short , there is a way..

:mandosmiley: :popcorn:

(no tapered end pin to fall out ;) )

[journeybear]

On my EM conversion A 50, I pass a cord thru the tunnel formed in the tail-piece, then tie a figure-8 knot in the cord (also called a 'stopper knot').

on my A40, 30 years ago, I made a fancy leather D shaped button and laced a piece of flat leather lace thru the same style of Waverly tail-piece-tunnel.



Thanks for the tip. I'll have to see how much I've got to work with there. As I told John, I recall I didn't have any room to work with on the EM-150, so I probably didn't look too closely at the A-00 and just switched my strap over.

I'm going to have to come up with something for the A also, as the button is worn half off, leaving not a whole lot of flange to work with. I guess I could snake a leather strip under the tailpiece and use your stopper knot approach, except for two things - it would be unbalanced, and I wouldn't want the knot rubbing against the top. Right now I'm using a 1mm plastic string that goes around the button twice. It's holding so far, but I'm probably going to switch to wire. Or a piece of leather with just the right size slit cut in it for a tight fit.


Thanks for the suggestions. That's more in keeping with the Mandolin Café spirit! :mandosmiley: