Curing Jam trainwreckers

[sailaway]

So we need some bigtime FAST GOOD musical advice, here. One or two occasional pickers (as opposed to regulars) at a jam show up and insist on (1) playing and lead - singing pretty obscure tunes hardly anyone knows, (2)refuse to routinely state the name of the tune or the key it's in, (and look disparagingly at you like you're from Mars if you ask what the song is ) (3) put down others with smart#$# comments like ' most folks know that'un --' just 'train your ear...' 'that song is too hard for you ..' (while generally refusing to tell you anything ..) (3) take over the jam (which used to be a circle jam) by starting 'Their' songs (to which only They generally know the words) then slag and lag the rhythm so even when a good player is taking a break on 'their' song it is an out-of-rhythm trainwreck (4) gratuitously criticize other players and singers publically by proclaiming 'you aren't doing the right bass runs there ' or 'you shouldn't sing in that key' . (5) make snide public comments about other players ( yah, 'C isn't REALLY that good of a (here, fill in the blank with instrument ) player..get H in here to play ... ' I have seen some of our finest players quietly shut their cases and walk out when particular person(s) starts these antics. Short of a street brawl -- how do we fix this before the jam starts to disintegrate ? by the way , little private hints that this kind of conduct is discourteous and counterproductive and downright rude and mean just haven't worked in the past. A private survey of sensible people reveal that most everyone dislikes X , odn't like these jam antics, and don't by the way think X to be much of a musician him/herself ( certainly no Jimmy Martin or David Long) but don't know how to deal with this recurring problem. (Feel free to be creative in your reply -- but in our state ya can get jail time for 1st offense assault and battery...and by the way none of the wreckers are b#$#%0 pickers.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[frets1]

Sounds to me like a real mess! I don't think that there are any magic words that will make everything OK but, here's my suggestion.

Talk with several of your pickin buddies. Make sure that yall are on the same page and make plans to confront these &*^%#@+!?. I DO NOT MEAN HOSTILE CONFRONTATION!! I suggest a confrontation based on the facts as everyone knows them to be.

*Try your best not to allow emotions to enter the picture. Emotions only confuse issues such as this.

1. These #$*&!^? need to be put on notice that the pickin is for everyone's pleasure.

2. They need to know the guidelines (I can't spell edicute) for everyone to follow and that everyone has a responsability to follow them.

3. They must know that a pickin is a learning experience as well as fun-time.

4. They must be told that belittling others is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.

5. You must make it crystal clear to these %^#*@? that if they are not willing to do the above that they are no longer welcome at the pickin.

As I said; This must not be done in a hostile way. However, it must be done in a very matter-of-fact way. It cannot be done by you only. They must know that everyone feels this way. They must certain of yall's solidarity. Most of all; Don't let these $%#*&^? stop yall from havin fun!!

Hope this helps. Keep on pickin!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[250sc]

Talk to others who feel the same as you and organize an "invitational" jam.

Life's too short to have to deal with jerks for long.

[John Flynn]

frets1, I applaud the intent of your advice above and I mean no disrespect to you at all here, but I have to say that I think your advice is a bit on the "pollyanna" side. You are essentially suggesting lecturing an adult peer who is socially insensitive on matters of basic etiquette. If his momma didn't teach him, you ain't gonna. I think the attempt you outlined, no matter how un-emotionally it was done, would start a brawl faster than anything. Would you try to correct the table manners of the diner at the next table at a restruant? Would you suggest to someone in a crowded elevator that they need to bathe more often?

The situation described is very common for jams. The sad reality is that you either hang in with it or you don't go to that jam anymore. The best jams are hosted by someone and the host sets the tone. If the host is skillful, he is the person to set rules and enforce them, for everyone. He is also the person to not invite an offender back the next time. Just MHO.

[Tom C]

I would just think they (the #$^#*) would be out numbered and others would recommend to play another tune.

[straight-a]

The vast majority of these folks will dissappear when they are stood up to by the rest of the group. I do not mean in an angry or violent way but as frets1 said, a matter of fact and firm stand way. These guys are taking over because they are being allowed to take over. I've encountered this for 30+ years. Now yes, they may loudly protest, cuss, stomp, insult and rail when confronted but I have found that to be a one time incident with nice results as they do not come back anymore. In a lot of ways it's like standing up to the school bully.

An invitational jam would be an easier way out but if these guys ever found out about it you would be back to square one. That's the problem with this type of person. You can't drop hints, you just have to firmly say NO. You have my heartfelt empathy and I wish you success in dealing with the situation.

[craigtoo]

Yeah, I've had same issues on the Irish sessions too. If the polite hints and comments don't work, from members or the leader, (some people are just insensitive)... Just talk to your good buddies, and the leader and switch pubs or nights or times and don't tell them..or just find a different jam. I'm not big on the direct confrontation, especially in a music scene where egos are tightly wound up in it all.

Good luck...it's a ###### situation..
craig

[twaaang]

I assume this is an open-forum type jam in a public place, rather than something more private that can be controlled by invitation. These guys wouldn't show up if there weren't something in it for them: fun, dominance, whatever. I suggest you "regulars" just remove any support for the offending behavior. Unless song and key are appropriately introduced before being kicked off (and it's actually his turn to do so) NOBODY plays along. Inappropriate remarks: stony silence. Etc. These guys may be unfamiliar with what the "regular" group routinely plays, and it may help (when it's your turn) to comment on why you like the song you are about to do. And don't forget to support whatever they do that IS appropriate. Some people come from places with about zero structure; some from places where the behaviors you object to are actually the norm. Few are totally beyond salvage, but some take more rehab than others. I see it's early in the day and my cynicism hasn't kicked in yet. -- PDW

[Keith Wallen]

Sounds like they didn't grow up in a bluegrass community. Must be rock-n-roll converts. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Christine W]

I have experienced a JAM HOG too, are you sure we aren't going to the same jam? He he.
This particular group only shows up every once in a while and the regulars are very cordial positive helpful people. I couldn't ask for a better group. I noticed as we were playing that all of a sudden I look around and I"m the only one left of the regulars. The regulars instead of fussing or getting upset just moved to another corner and started up thier own cirlce. I hightailed it out of there and joined the regulars! #So maybe that is the solution in your case, space permiting of course. #No words were exchanged, no tempers flared, just a silent exodus.

[MWM]

When this happens at festivals, just find another jam. If it's a regular indoor jam, find another corner, the kitchen, the basement, the front steps, etc. The players who like to play together will find their preferred group again just like water finds it's own level. No need for confrontation - just slip away quietly after a song or two. I'll hear friends say, "Gee I looked up and everyone I know was gone". Fiddle tunes are great to work on when you do this as you can start with just a couple musicians. Try it. Don't get bummed when someone calls a tune you don't know - it's how music migrates.

[cbogle]

I like twaaang's and MWM's advice above, but there might be another thing going here as well, and that would be the infamous "jam-busters". These are musicians (usually quite good ones) whose expressed purpose during festival evenings is to have a few drinks and INTENTIONALLY screw up a jam, many of them utilizing the methods as described in sailaway's original post. Why would one do this? I don't really know, but it is such incredibly juvenile behavior. I know a few of these people in fact, and have been invited to come along and "bust up some jams", but I won't have any part of it.

When I see this happening, I pack up, get out, and find another jam; life's too short to agonize over a band of cretins with no regard for their fellow pickers.

[mandofiddle]

How abouts...

"Dude, this isn't band practice. If that's what you want, start a band"
-or upon insults given to other players-
"If this jam isn't advanced enough for you, go find one that is, or start your own"

Around here, if they pulled that at an advanced jam, they'd get slung out of it pretty quickly.

All in all, I think I'd really suggest to talk to the other regulars and cordial members of the jam, and start an invite only jam somewhere else. Maybe even at someone's house, or rotating houses.

[duuuude]

Carry a squirt gun, and don't be afraid to use it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[mandofiddle]

Carry a squirt gun, and don't be afraid to use it! # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Now THAT'S something I'd like to see at a jam. That would be hilarious!

[Ken Sager]

Talk to others who feel the same as you and organize an "invitational" jam.

Life's too short to have to deal with jerks for long.
This has been done with great success in my neighborhood. It is called a "Discreet Alternative Jam" and has become more popular than the original jam for obvious reasons. It's amazing how doing this will bring the best pickers back out to public jams.

The first rule of the Discreet Alt Jam is you don't talk about the Discreet Alt Jam.

The second rule of the Discreet Alt Jam is you don't talk about the Discreet Alt Jam.

I've already broken the first two rules by now. You get the point.

Love to all,
Ken

[JD Cowles]

alt jam or a good talkin to for those jack@ses are good options. #don't let it wreck your pick. #i ran into the same thing from the members of a local band (now big on the hippie jam circuit) who decided to turn a local pick into band practice/blow away the beginners jam. #this was years ago and i was just learnin to play and it bummed me out so that i stopped going to the pick. #i ended up making some fast friends that i have been pickin with regularly for 6 years now so it ended up great. #but don't let a couple pompous guys ruin your pick.
end of rant-
jd #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[mrbook]

If "jam-busters" like to break up jams, they really aren't good musicians. I have noticed that the best musicians don't need to show off, and are easy to play with because they listen to you and play with you. The insecure players (often with some ability) are the ones who try to make it into a contest, and it is usually easy to see why they aren't in a band - or if they are, why they are all in the same band.

In his banjo book, Pete Wernick has a good comment (which I think I've memorized accurately ) in his section on playing with others - "If you set out to astound and amaze, you will only revile and repel." Those people show up at every jam, and if I'm not in the mood to play with them, I usually find a couple people on the side to play with or pack up early.

[John Flynn]

There is a strategy I have seen used that may be helpful and that is to "split up" a jam. I have not seen it used specifically to counter "trainwreckers" but it could serve that purpose. What I have seen is that a jam will get too big or too loud and someone will say, "Hey, it looks like things are getting a little crowded, what if we split the jam up? Maybe the bluegrassers could stay here and people who just want to do old-time fiddle tunes could go in the other room (or outside, or down the road, or whatever)." If you wanted to use this device to get away from a trainwrecker, you would make the same kind of suggestion, but you would make sure the format for the breakout group was something the trainwrecker would not want to do. It could even be some code you have prearranged with others who also don't like to play with the trainwrecker. I can see it now: "A few of us are going to go down the basement and work on seventeenth century Serbo-Croation wedding marches. Anybody want to join us?"

[mandroid]

Duuude, RE squirt gun::: how bout sillystring, (except while they are puffin on a cig, its sorta flamable.) [unless that , is the useful 'collateral damage']
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[lakedog mando]

The easiest solution is to change the jam location, day or time and only invite the players who are fun.
Pick on...

[otterly2k]

I've long thought that if squirt guns work so well with cats, why not use with humans? Another option is an air horn... you know, the kind that looks like a spray can with a megaphone on it... use it like a gameshow buzzer...

Trainwrecker says something obnoxious, whip out the air horn with a BZAAAAAAA!
Game show host: "I'm sorry, that is incorrect, try again"

lol

Actually, I like twaaaang's suggestion of deliberate and coordinated non-uptake to the offending behavior. Trainwrecker fails to announce the title or key... everyone waits patiently for him to do so...nobody else plays until he does, leaving him to change his behavior or play with himself http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif If he asks, say "you have to announce title and key if you want us to play with you". Simply, direct. TW takes over and starts only obscure songs / his own songs? Nobody else plays. If he asks, say "We come to this jam to play together on songs most of us know. We don't know that one. " (or, after being willing to follow one of these , tell him it's someone else's turn). If he criticizes a player... no uptake.

I understand about starting a new session, and sometimes that is the best strategy...but this can be really hard on newbies, learners or peripheral players who are likely to be left out of the "loop" when such plans are made, and then end up being stuck with Trainwrecker, when they may be LEAST likely to be able to stand up to him. Also, it allows Bad-Behavior-Boy to control the situation, which bugs me.
KE

[blammo]

You could just start a band with a few of your favorite pickers…you know, with rehearsals & gigs & stuff.

I guess I've never been into that whole "jam circle" scene, but it sounds like it's a pain in the butt when the wrong people are involved. I value the time I spend playing music too much to squander it with selfish, clueless people.

(ok, maybe that last comment sounded selfish in and of itself, but I think you get the idea)

The major breakthroughs I've made in playing have been either by myself, or with a couple of tolerant bandmates who indulged me by allowing me to try different musical ideas and offering suggestions.
It also helps when you have a band, because you can differentiate between "rehearsals", "practice" and "performances". Sounds like those jams can be any of those three things to the people attending…which could be a recipe for disaster.

[mrmando]

Schedule the alternative jam at another time and place. BUT contact X and Y and implore them to come to the regular jam as well, at the accustomed time and place. Leave a note there for X and Y, explaining that the jam is now theirs, and they can jolly well insult and play bad rhythm for each other.

[mad dawg]

Move the jam but don't tell them where to. (Worked for me as kid when my parents moved and gave me a fake address for their new home. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif )

[steve in tampa]

This is from the South West Florida Bluegrass Association

http://www.southwestfloridabluegrass.org/jamming.cfm

[jasona]

All I get is an outline of good tips--is there a way to get the tips themselves?

[steve in tampa]

Makes ya think! It's not football!

[blammo]

Makes me think…that either those are dead links, or someone never got around to filling in the details. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Under the "Do's and Don'ts" section are two categories:

-Do's
-Don'ts

Well, I guess that's useful…LOL