Mandolins that play very well up the neck?

[Geiss]

Hi All and good Holidays all around....

I think I have MPS....(mandolin playing syndrome); I say that because I'm playing every day a Breedlove OF that I got nearly a year ago. I'd like to be a better player as opposed to a collector.

Here's my gripe with the Breedlove (which, by the way, has been professionally tended to..neck, bridge). My feeling is that playing up the neck is less than ideal. Although the action is pretty slinky, the instrument loses it lustre for me above around the seventh fret. Beyond that, the notes sound muddier and playing becomes a more effortful, for lack of a better word.

Part of this might just be how a mandolin feels but there's this nagging sense that there has to be better, perhaps much better, mandolins out there that maintain a better playability and sound as you move towards the body.

So, what makes a mandolin play well up the neck?
Am I being unrealistic and is some loss of sound and playability inevitable up the neck? Who's building particularly great mandolins for 5K or less that might fit the bill?

As I mentioned, I'm looking to be the owner of one mandolin that gets played and bring me and others joy! Any guidance very much appreciated?
I'm thinking that life is too short for a mediocre mandolin......

Dave

PS...I'm not slamming Breedlove here....I think all in all this OF represents a great value for sub 2K mando, it's just that I'm aiming a little higher now/DES

[Matt Hutchinson]

Hi,

I had a Furch A style in a similar price bracket and felt the same about it. It was a great mandolin for the money and played OK up the neck but I wanted something that had a bit more tone higher up. In the end I got a 1988 Flatiron Artist A and that does the job great. With D'Addario semi-flattened strings it plays like a dream.

Matt

[Bill Van Liere]

Geiss-I have a Brentrup A, Model 21, that I have owned and played for five years. All notes are strong and clear up the neck, something I do not find present in all mandolins. I purchased my instrument for well under 5K, so what you are asking for is available.

[JeffD]

I haven't noticed what you are describing. My experience has been, with instruments properly set up, that notes up the neck generally sound as good as those in first position. I would perhaps have a luthier check it out.

[sunburst]

That's one of the places where mandolins start to diverge, up the neck. It's pretty common to find two f-hole mandolins with similarly good chop chords, similar loudness, similar depth of tone on the G strings and all that, but when you play up the neck they can start to sound very different. The better ones tend to be "sparkley", clear, "bell like" in the upper ranges, the lesser ones tend to "wash out" like you're describing.
That's about the third thing I check when I pick up a mandolin; a few chop chords first, some scales in a couple of keys, then the sound up around the 12th through 15th frets, especially on the A and E strings. If all that sounds good to me, I feel like I have my hands on a pretty good mandolin and any evaluation beyond that requires a better player than I, and also moves quickly into personal preference.
And speaking of personal preference, It really does come down to that. Obviously, I like the sound that I get from my own mandolins up the neck, but obviously again, I might be biased, and even so, the sound that I or you or someone else like may not be the same.
Every time something like this comes up for discussion around here there are several posts saying something like "play all the mandolins you can get your hands on and find what you like". Well, that strategy is as appropriate here as it can be.
As for the under $5000 goal, that's pretty easy if you're looking for an A. Most builders, with only few exceptions, build A-style mandolins for less than $5000.
Clear, strong treble notes can be characteristic of some builders work, but even so, it can be good to try several of that builders mandolins because such things as type of spruce and type of maple and so forth can make the treble notes sound different in different examples.

So there you have it. It always comes down to; "play a lot of mandolins and get one that you like".

As an aside, I've thought quite a bit about this aspect of mandolin sound because I was very happy with the treble notes I was getting from my early mandolins, and all the work I've done since toward balancing the sound has been done with a slight fear of improving other aspects at the expense of the treble notes. Fortunately, I don't think that has happened, and I think the trebles have gotten a little richer in subsequent instruments, but it has made me want to understand what is at work to produce those sounds assuming that if I know where they're coming from I'll know not to change that while trying to improve other aspects of the sound. I think the top itself is one of the most important producers of those clear high notes, and specifically, I think there needs to be enough mass in the top (not too thin or light) with appropriate arching and graduations. Some builders try to get and "older" or "woodier" sound by carving the top thinner, and I think there can be a loss of treble clarity from doing that.
If you find a builder who's sound you like and discus a custom build with him/her, talking over the sound you want should give you good results. The builder will understand the sound you want and will know how he/she has done that in the past. I don't think you're buying a "pig in a poke" by having a mandolin built by an experienced builder who understands the treble sound you want.

[Big Joe]

Yep. You've found the real way to tell a good mandolin from an ok mandolin. With a properly set up mandolin you should get a good balance across the fingerboard and not have strings that are louder than others and not have fret positions that are different.

One of the tests I give any mandolin (by any maker) is to check the playability and tone up the fingerboard. If it passes that test I'm happy, if not I just put it back and go on about my business. It may be a pretty mandolin, but not for me.

There are a good number of builders on the cafe that build great mandolins. They also have the "IT" up the fingerboard. One of the things I always liked about Gibson was the up the neck tone.

Part of what impressed me with the "The Loar" mandolins was they sounded good up the neck where most pac rim mandolins do not. I'm sure it is a combination of the hand carving and nitro cellulose lacquer but whatever the reason, it is a great mandolin for the money.

I won't name the builders from the cafe that have the "IT" factor, because I'm getting old :) and would probably forget someone. I would not want that. Like the others have said, play a bunch of mandolin until you find the one that speaks to you. Then you will have the one that is right for you. Your tastes will likely change over time. Most of us have had that experience. When that happens you will find the new one for you.

[Fretbear]

This is the area where you can really start to tell the difference in quality between various instruments. A fine mandolin can sound as good or better in third or fourth position as a poorer one can sound in first position. It is the bass strings tone and response that I like to check up around the twelfth fret to see what it has to offer.

[El Greco]

Lackluster might be a pretty accurate description for the 7th fret + up sound you get from a Breedlove. I was wondering about that myself (I have a Cascade KF). Don't think it's a set up issue, I think it's the nature of this instrument (and I wonder if it has anything to do with the "floating" neck?).

I've had mine for almost two years and although my playing cannot justify moving up to a ~$5k instrument yet, I have started trying different makes available at local music shops. I've tested some nice A-style mandolins out there that definitely project better above the 7th fret. We'll see...

[Mark Walker]

I've played Bill Van Liere's Brentrup, and it's SWEET. (Bill - I think you had that at WMBMA FallFest, right? You had a number of instruments I noodled around with!)

My Silver Angel is true and bright up the neck too, but my PacRim Lotus is muddy beyond about the 8th fret. I don't wander up that way too much, but I've encountered a number of mandolins that are great up the neck, and some not so great.

Very good observation by the OP! :)

[Lee]

My Collings MT-2 absolutely sings way up the neck. The Phoenix I've played were all stellar in that respect too.
Many mando's get that constrained sound. It seems the G & D strings are tmore difficult to get good up-neck tone.

[Geiss]

Thanks fellow Cafe'ers!

Looks as if a better instrument needs to be in my not too distant future.
I'm no Chris Thile (actually I'm likely an advanced beginner with the desire to seriously improve) but I'm about at the end of the road with this OF. A wise person once told me to buy the best instrument I could afford...well, in buying the OF (my first) I was not sure how addicted I would become. It's a great student/mid level instrument at a great price, but........

So far, have played a few Phoenix instruments (@ March Mando festival), a Kimble A, Barry M.'s Buckeye, a very nice Gavin Baird F, and a few Collings.

The Buckeye and the Baird seem to talk to me the most but want to play some others. Need to get out to some festivals this coming year or maybe a trip to Nashville to hear some music and do some shopping.

The right used instrument would be great but would like to play it without the ship/approval/re-ship deal if possible. Might be talking with some greater NY/PA/CT sellers and hoping in the car........

We'll see ...but at least I know that what I am looking for is out there......

Good Holidays to All!

[Mandobar]

go west, to acoustic music works in pittsburgh. best selection of mandolins that i have ever encountered.

[Geiss]

Thanks for that insight Mandobar...I can tie that into a visit to Curtis Rockwell (Oriskany) who built my 6 string flat top!

Never been to Pittsburgh but I'm sure it will be interesting.

Best,
Dave

[8ch(pl)]

My Mid Missouri sounds nice when playing up around the 9th to 12th fret.

[JeffD]

That's one of the places where mandolins start to diverge, up the neck. It's pretty common to find two f-hole mandolins with similarly good chop chords, similar loudness, similar depth of tone on the G strings and all that, but when you play up the neck they can start to sound very different..


Hmmm. I haven't done a whole lot of A-B comparisons, and I have played mostly oval holes, but I have not bumped into this problem. My experience has been that if the instrument sounded great, it sounded great up the neck too. And when it didn't sounded all that great up the neck, it didn't really scintillate in first position either.

[man dough nollij]

After reading this thread, I started playing around with my Weber Gallatin up to the 14th fret. I think it's an unusually loud (in a good way) mandolin normally, which might help it out up the neck. I don't think I've ever been above the 14th, but it sounds great up to there.

:mandosmiley:

[Geiss]

Had another thought after reading some more......the Breedlove I am playing has the following:
Fret Wire: .078 wide-.04 high

Isn't this rather wide fret wire compared to many others?
Could this fret wire have an impact up the neck when the spacing between frets decreases?
Speaking generally, would a narrower fret wire have a different feel? Different sound?
I thank all for their indulgence if these questions bespeak my lack of mandolin knowledge......

Dave

[Gerard Dick]

My Weber Yellowstone rings clear as a bell as far up the neck as my pudgy finges can go. 14 - 16 fret. Notes and chords ring true and no individual string set sounds dominant. Can't ask for more.

[jim_n_virginia]

It's been my experience that most (not ALL) mandolins that don't play well up the neck is because the bridge is out of place and/or not seated properly.

Definitely the first thing I would check! :mandosmiley:

[doc holiday]

Dave: If i were looking for a great mando around 5K, i would seriously consider Tom Ellis new A styles. Tom is one of a handful of small builders whose offerings are tonally very complex, and (in my opinion) smoke most factory mades in their price range. I heard both Sharon Gilchrist (who plays a Gil) and Tom Rozum ( his other mando is a Loar) playing Ellis Fs a couple of months ago and the sound was brilliant (player+ instrument). The Fs are in the 11K range and I have no doubts the A style are a bargain for a great instrument). ~o)

[jasona]

It's been my experience that most (not ALL) mandolins that don't play well up the neck is because the bridge is out of place and/or not seated properly.

Definitely the first thing I would check! :mandosmiley:

Seconded. When I had a Cumberland Acoustics professionally fitted to my Ratcliff it significantly improved the focus and tone up the neck.

[Coffeecup]

You might like to have a look at the articles I've linked to in this thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46572

They give some interesting background which might apply to this issue, even if not supplying an answer that you are able to apply yourself.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I have a slightly higher than 'normal' action on my Weber Fern,about 3/32" at the 12th fret. The instrument notes strong & true as far as i ever play (16 th fret or so). A friend of mine has a Summit F-5 Mandolin which tonally,sounds as close to my Weber as any Mandolin other than another Weber could. However,played above the 9th/10th fret,it looses some of it's volume & clarity (or did). My friend had an action down to just above a 1/32" at the 12th fret - waaaaaay too low IMHO. He raised the action to around 1/16" & the volume & intonation up the neck increased by quite a lot. If he raised it to my 12th fret height,i'm in no doubt that it would sound as strong as my Fern.
I think that a low action can reduce the tonality & volume of an instrument to a heck of a degree. For example,if i reduce the action/bridge height on my Banjo,i can cut the volume down by half & get it to sound as though i've got a pair of socks stuck under the bridge,& that's on an instrument a whole lot louder (don't we know it !!), than a Mandolin.
Incidentally,i believe that Paul Schneider,the maker of the Summit Mandolins,used to work for or with Bruce Weber - i wonder if that's why his Mandolins look & sound so similar ?.Whatever,the Summit Mandolins look & sound superb,
Saska ;)

[epicentre]

:cool: My Glenn A plays really well up to the 12th fret. Intonation is excellent, and notes are clear across the fretboard. Not that it matters, as I don't do 12th fret too often.

Someday, I hope to find out how a Ratliff A plays up there too. However, that is then and this is now, and the Glenn is doing a great job.

:grin: