Small child mandolin design thoughts

[oldwave maker]

After looking at those pictures Scott posted of small kids holding regular sized mandolins, I thought of all the fractional sizes of violins and thought it might be fun to make a downsized one for the Mandolins for kids program, maybe 8-9" body width, 13" scale, givens style 1" nut width, jazzmando strings, lightly braced engelmann top, wild finish colors. Any thoughts or comments appreciated, happy to pass the outside plywood form and a neck template around when I get the parts assembled. I can supply a few 13"scale slotted fretboards if needed.

[Mario Proulx]

I've thought about something similar once or twice. I'd go for something closer to a 12.5" scale; basically, a standard fretboard with the first two frets left off. Scaling the body down a bit would help, and keep things lighter in weight, which I think would be a big help to our young pickers. With that, I'd go with lighter weight body woods, and necks, and lighten everything possible.

[wannabethile]

make 'em a piccolo mandolin!!

[oldwave maker]

Looking at MENC specs in Stroebels "Useless Measurements for Mandolin Makers", a 1/2 size fiddle is about 87% of a full size, a 1/4 size is 78%, a 1/8 is 71%, ergonomics favor shorter total length for shorter fiddlers, maybe arm reach over the upper bout while slouching on the couch, ie, width, would be more important ergonomically for mandokids? somebody ask a mandokid!
87% mando would be, more or less, a 12.2 scale and 8.7 wide body, 78%= a 10.9 scale and 7.8 wide body, a 71%=10 scale and 7.1 body. hmmmmm
Anyone with a 13" scale bowlback and jm11's care to comment about the string feel?

[JEStanek]

Bill,
I just had my 8 year old daughter (who hasn't played mandolin really- but plays with a regular A style) strum my 13 inch scale bowlback strung with TI lights. She could fret an open G chord and sound it after a few tries (not too bad) even with the 6" deep bowl.

TI lights
.010, .015, .021, .033

JM11s
.011, .015, .024, .033

In my hands this low action (not buzzing bowl) is very easy to play. I bet a tear drop shaped flat top with a slightly smaller body would fit a 5-7 year old well. Like the Mini-Mo Mike Dulak made but with 8 strings.



Fingers Hers Mine
Pointer 2 5/16" 2 15/16"
Middle 2 10/16" 3 4/16"

As Measured from base line at palm to tip.


Jamie

[amowry]

Hey Bill,

If you'd be interested in some collaboration, it could be fun for several of us to get together and each make parts for an instrument for Mandolins for Kids. The Musical Instrument Makers Forum has done a few collaborative projects like that. One person could make the rim, another the top and back, another the neck, etc. You'd have to ship parts around, but it would be kind of cool, as ong as I don't get stuck with the finishing ;) Just a thought.

[Mario Proulx]

I'm not as concerned with string feel as much as the stretch between frets. A shorter scale will allow the young'uns to move past two finger chords and into 3 and 4 finger chords much sooner.

[JEStanek]

Hey Bill, Instead of fine malts and ales will you use Kool-Aid, Ovaltine or Strawberry Quick to color the kiddie versions? Seriously, this sounds like a very cool idea/project.

Jamie

[PhilGE]

Bill, dig through the CoMando list archives. There's a bunch of info there from several years ago. The Weber Sweetpea and Mid-Missouri Mandolin's KidMo and Mini-Mo were developed, in part from that discussion. There's also some discussion of piccolo size instruments in CoMando and here as well.

I'd recommend very light strings and a longer scale than the KidMo's 11". Medium strings make it sound best, but the tension is to high for children. Light strings don't really drive it. Tuning it up light strings brings tone and volume up, but results in many broken strings. Many thanks to Mike Dulak for jumping into that possibility.

One drawback with the Sweetpea: the full scale lenght and small body size makes it difficult to hold at times (at least this adults). Many thanks to Bruce Weber for creating this decent sounding travel mandolin. I still keep mine at work.

I'm about to buy a ukulele for my daughter. The light nylon strings and short scale are easy to fret and will be a good start for her. If there's a way of making a mando-uke like thing for kids, all the better.

Here's an old photo from 2002 of Benjamin with our Sweetpea.

[Graham McDonald]

A standard 13.875 scale fingerboard with the nut moved to the first fret slot gives a scale pretty close to 13" and from the second fret to 12 3/8". Classical piccolo mandolins were often tuned a fourth higher (top string a) according to Sparks, The Classical Mandolin, but seems rather too high. I think better to use standard tuning with a shorter scale and less tension.

I'm a bit far away to do more than offer encouragement, but maybe some kind of friendly competition to design and build a cheap but playable, slightly smaller and shorter scale mandolin with all entries to be donated to the program.

Just a thought

graham

[8ch(pl)]

If you are deliberately making a mandolin for a child, I would go with your ideas, but in a 4 string. it will be easier for a child to play.

[Philippe Bony]

A fellow cafe member, French Guy, alias Jean Lacote, built a 4 strings mando for a young mandolinist...
Some explanations here (http://pagesperso-orange.fr/jl-mando/Photos%2313/us_13.html)

[Ted Eschliman]

I'm in agreement on the single-course approach. My daughter has been playing a 1/4 violin (about to move to a 1/2). She enjoys my Mandobird, JP Charles, and my Jazzbo, mostly because they are well set up, but also because they are 4-string. She would happily volunteer to beta-test on this project, BTW!

[PhilGE]

A fellow cafe member, French Guy, alias Jean Lacote, built a 4 strings mando for a young mandolinist...
Some explanations here (http://pagesperso-orange.fr/jl-mando/Photos%2313/us_13.html)

Wow... c'est magnifique! :)

-Phil

P.S. that "birth of a mandolin" explanation is priceless!

[Martin Jonas]

One of the rationales for buying a Risa Mando-Stick was that it would be a good instrument for my children to learn on if and when they are ready. I think it has a number of big advantages over a scaled-down "proper" mandolin: no body, single strings, low string tension on nylon strings, and it's played through an amp with volume control (or indeed headphones) to minimise parental nerve damage. The downside is that its tone and playing experience is further removed from a "proper" mandolin.

Martin

[John Flynn]

I own a Risa, I like it and I use it for travel, but for kids, I wouldn't go solid body. The Risa is basically a uke strung as a 4-string mandolin. I would use the same approach on an acoustic uke. You can buy a playable uke for under $100. It would be just as easy to string it as a mando. Start the kid out on that. If they do well, progress to a steel string mando strung with half a set of T-I's, then progress to the full set.

[Will Kimble]

I vote for 13" scale, 1" nut and 4 strings - let me know if I can help!

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

[Gary McMoran]

A couple of years ago, I made this 11" scale, 4 stringer for a 3 year old. tuned a fourth up. Despite my lack of skill and knowledge, I had so much fun playing on it before I gave it to him, I started an 8 string 11" flattop for myself. If I could only find some shop time to work on it. It's shown here with my Rigel A for size comparison. Fretboard is taped up with blue tape prior to finishing.

36981

[martinedwards]

for all the size of a mando I'm not seeing the point of shrinking the scale even farther....

here's Lois (5) with my mandostrat.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e328/gowanedwards/mandostrat/40600350-1.jpg

single courses and standard scale length.

she hasn't actually started to play it properly yet, but its easy enough to fret.

[oldwave maker]

Thanks for the input folks, looking to make a pair of 1/2 size body, 3/4 size neck 8 string instruments with these new forms, which might also take smaller scale 4 string necks in the hands of other luthiers. By the age of 12 or so the bigger kids will be ready for full size, at least in my experience

[Rick Turner]

It would be easy enough to adapt my pancake mando kits that I teach with to be smaller. Building Spanish-style offers tremendous flexibility...no outside molds needed. The neck is a more or less 12 fretter, but the same fingerboard could be used with one less fret and the bridge moved, and it would wind up as about a 14 fret to body neck. I'll mock one up. Pretty simple... And the four string approach is valid for tender fingers.

[oldwave maker]

Prototype- 85% body with 13" scale with 15th fret crosspiece puts bridge about 1/2" south of where I'd like. Had nut string spacing template from an older Givens, worked great for this 1" nut width. Already sounds better than my vintage Hondo! Regular A model for size comparison:

[JEStanek]

Looks great, Bill.

Jamie

[pjlama]

My boys sure would like one of those Bill. Funny enough Cristo wants a small mandolin but he can hold a full sized fine. I think the idea of a kids size just appeals to him. Le me know if the Baby Wave will be making an ABQ visit.

[Dfyngravity]

This is a great idea. I think a smaller flat top would also be nice simply for cost reasons. I know many people here on the cafe can only afford a mandolin in a lower price range and probably can not afford to buy a "custom" carved mandolin for their child. Though a simply flat top may be a better option. Plus they can be made a bit quicker not having to carve tops and what not. And using 4 strings on a flat top is less of an issue as far as volume goes.


Any thoughts?

Bill, the progress looks awesome....I can't wait for a little sound tasting.

[Dfyngravity]

Rick, I seemed to have missed your post. So my above post agree with yours.