Frets

[Arve Hermundstad]

Probably a silly question, but why do frets wear out so fast? Could not a more durable material be used? ( ok, 2 questions)

[JEStanek]

Stainless steel frets have a longer life, IIRC. They are harder, therefore more challenging to install.

Jamie

[Philphool]

I just picked up my new mando today. Has 22 stainless steel frets that I plan to have dressed in about 10 years.:):mandosmiley:

[Paul Hostetter]

The frets I've found last longer than stainless are the Jescar gold "EVO" ones. Extraordinary. I guinea-pigged them on a couple of gypsy jazz guitarists whose guitars I ordinarily had to refret annually. The interval will be a LOT longer now; it already is. SS didn't pan out so well. And the gold wire is a lot easier to deal with in terms of installation and so on.

Here is a link to a list (http://www.lutherie.net/fret.chart.html) I put together of most of what's available in the US. Have a look.

A final note, my usual comment: low frets wear out faster than tall frets. If I had more time I'd go find and copy this spiel from one of the earlier posts. Nickel fretwire alloys haven't changed much; if anything they've gotten better. People wear frets out and there's a reason, and it's a problem with a solution.

[man dough nollij]

Paul,

Are the "gold" ones actually gold in color? Do you know what they're made of?

[Paul Hostetter]

They are indeed gold, though the overall look isn't that noticeable. The gold is a different gold color, not like brass or any sort of gold plating, hence they don't darken like brass frets.

The basic metal in the alloy (as with normal nickel frets) is copper. They won't say what else is in it, but it's an alloy developed for eyeglass frames for people with nickel allergies. So it's hypoallergenic, and think of eyeglass frames when you're trying to visualize the look. It seems soft and sort of claylike when you're clipping and putting them in, but they really last. The folks at Jescar told me flat out they'd outperform the stainless wire and I see, now that I've used both and observed the results over time, that they're right. Unfortunately it doesn't come in many sizes, and none are really ideal for mandolins. But for guitars, all is well. They have a $1000 minimum order for a batch of it in any size they have dies for, and they have some great sizes in the other two alloys they offer. Maybe a few folks would like to buy into a custom run. Getting them to agree on the size is like herding cats!

[Michael Cameron]

A fretwire that lasts longer than SS, and,sounds to me like, it may be easy to work with or easier than SS (?) Quite possibly a golden opportunity !

How much is in a batch?

I would like enough for at least 6 total mando refrets.

One problem I see is getting enough people to agree on fret dimensions.

Paul,I like taller(.050?). How about .080 for crown width? I can work with the tang width;you'd know better about this than me. Please advise/PM me or e-mail me;and,I'll do the same.

This is entirely doable without anyone breaking the bank.

I am subscribing to this thread and any thread regarding this fretwire. Premature fretwear has been a problem for pickers for TOO LONG.

Arve,not a silly question at all. Thank you for asking!
c

[Paul Hostetter]

Frank Ford really likes Jescar #39040, which is only available in 18% NS or SS, it's .039" tall x .040" wide. Basically half-round. I could definitely live with this, but wouldn't mind something a bit taller. Or generally bigger, for comfort. It's at least a nice wire for keeping the vintage look and it's fairly tall.

I used to use a Dunlop #6280 wire that was 44x76, but they discontinued it - that was best for me.

What I usually use now for maximum comfort and durability is Dunlop #6230, only available in 18% NS, it's .043" tall x .078" wide. It's basically what you'd call guitar wire, but it works and feels great on a mandolin. (I prefer bigger on guitar, like Stew-Mac's #155 18% NS, being .050"w x .080" tall.)

But! This just in! I just noticed that Jescar has recently made their #43080 available in 18% NS - SS - and EVO and it's .043" tall x .080" wide and that's pretty close to 6230. It would play fine, I'm sure, but it'd look rather wide for mandolin.

Then there's Jescar's #50078, only in NS, but .050" x .078 wide. This would be do-able - if it came in gold.

Ouf, I'm getting dizzy thinking about this. I wish Jescar had a die for a 46076.

[Michael Cameron]

The #43080 sounds close enough for me. Good news!

I only suggested .050" tall because of quick fretwear. At .043" tall with minimal wear,that's great.

I have a few mandos with .080" wide fretwire(Stew-Mac #155),IIRC. It looks fine to me...I have "Sam Bush" frets on my Master Model,radiused. Sacrilege?
Maybe.

If Jescar has .050x.078 wire already,would it be much trouble to run EVO for them?

I plan to use the EVO stuff soon as I can afford it.

c

[Rob Grant]

"EVO" sounds very similar to the bronze/aluminium alloy which is used in the Australian one dollar and two dollar coins (?).

[Paul Hostetter]

From the way it feels, I'd sure believe aluminum was in that alloy, and it also makes sense that it would be used for coinage, for several of the same reasons it works for frets. It's curious that aluminum, a metal we think of as rather soft and undurable, would combine to have the results it has. I wonder what else is in the mix. Thanks for bringing that to light.

[grassrootphilosopher]

I found out that a major factor is the player. I used to go through frets within two years. That was 18 years ago. I am down to about 10 years to the frets now. Steve Kaufman once said in a workshop that you ought to administer just the right amount of pressure to prevent buzzing. Mostly when you start out playing you use the Death Grip. That wears the frets out fast, no doubt. On cheaper instruments that are harder to play, you grip harder too. That wears the frets out faster, too.

[Michael Cameron]

Trying no to push down too hard on the frets,keep optimal pick position,remember the tune,when to take your break,sing,show up at the right place on time,AND look good...

Sheesh,having ADD and CRS really doesn't help at all. Ditto old and ugly.

Anyway,it's only(mostly) the plain unwound strings that are the culprits in fret wear,yes? Just remember not to push too hard on the skinny strings.


Sent e-mail to Jescar. Hope to hear something soon.

c

[Paul Hostetter]

Olaf, you have nailed it.

[Mike Snyder]

I,ve become acutely aware of the cost of grinding on the A and E strings, as I,m having a refret on a 4 year old instrument. My fret hand index finger is an amputated stump, no big deal really, but it causes me to grind in order to fret both strings. Exessive wear on only the lower frets. It's a good reason to get a radius and wide frets and hope that the wear will not be so bad on bigger wire. As I think about it, I'm not so sure if the grinding is something I do necessarily to get notes clean, or because of decreased sensation in that stub. My luthier guy has the action buttery smooth downlow, and I can't blame the mandolin.

[Michael Cameron]

As far as size of frets vs. fret wear (the consistency of the frets being equal) a taller fret will wear just as quickly as a short one. You'll just have more fret height to dress down the divots with a taller fret,and so,more time in between re-fretting.

If the first 7 frets really need filing/contouring,you'll have to make sure all the other frets are not higher than the first 7. Right?
So,all the other frets will need dressing.

Using the same fretwire as the other (8-29),you may do just as well to replace the first 7 (or ever how many need work) ? Seems like less work would be involved overall.

I'm not sure the width of the fret or a radiused vs. flat fretboard has much effect on how fast they wear down.

Like the Dali Lama says,"I could be wrong about all this."

c

[Gavin Baird]

Paul
The EVO gold sounds like it is made from Aluminum Bronze which is approx. 90% copper 6% aliminum and the balance iron, nickel, manganese and zinc..Gavin

[Paul Hostetter]

Well, I doubt there's any nickel, that's the point of the hypoallergenic alloy. A lot of people have nickel allergies, even to tiny traces. There are people who can't play on regular frets for this reason, and folks who get a rash on their leg from pocket change.

The reason taller frets don't wear as much as lower ones is you don't have to squeeze hard to get clear notes. The lower the fret, the harder you have to press in order to get a clear note. With taller frets, you don't even have to press the string to wood. You don't hammer the frets when you press just enough to get clear notes.

Of course all bets are off if you can't adjust your touch, which some folks simply can't do. This is what I was referring to when Olaf mentioned Steve Kaufman's advice.

[Rob Grant]

Here's what the metal (EVO) probably looks like. When polished it has rich gold-like colour which changes to a more "mellow yellow" with light surface tarnishing. I think the Oz mint selected it because of its corrosion and wear properties. It's rather a nice looking metal actually.

[Paul Hostetter]

I just had an interesting exchange with someone who knows specialty metals pretty well and he says the alloy is probably known generically as TiCrAl, a blend of copper with titanium, aluminum and chrome. It can be colored a number of ways, but the gold color is easiest and most useful.

Smaller Australian coins, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coins_of_the_Australian_dollar), are actually 75% copper and 25% nickel. The Oz one- and two-dollar coins have a content of 2% nickel, 6% aluminium and 92% copper. Hardly hypoallergenic, any of them, but smart metallurgy considering their use. I love the Brit spelling aluminium.

[8ch(pl)]

Aluminum is actually a trade name, the original name for the metal is Aluminium. In North America it is Aluminum, in Europe it is commonly called Aluminium.

[Philphool]

...With taller frets, you don't even have to press the string to wood. ...

A little off topic, but for fun, take your fingernail or a pencil or something and try to press your string down to the wood on the fingerboard. Then sight underneath the string.
On my mandos, I CANNOT press J74s down to the wood at any point on ANY string! YMMV :mandosmiley:

[Jim Rowland]

By golly,Phil,you are right. I've tried it on all of my mandos. Strange that I never noticed that before. It feels like I'm bottoming out on the board,but it ain't happening.
Jim

[Rob Grant]

"A little off topic, but for fun, take your fingernail or a pencil or something and try to press your string down to the wood on the fingerboard. Then sight underneath the string."

I seem to get the same response with No.8 fencing wire.<G>