sitka opening up

[nbk]

I'm curious how long it takes sitka to open up compared to red and englemann spruce. I realize it takes a while for red to open up and that englemann is practically open right out of the gate, but how does sitka fit into the scheme of things in terms amount of time required to really open up (on average)? Thanks.

[Michael Lewis]

That depends! How thick, what arching, how tall the bridge, string break angle, string gauge, how hard and often you play, etc. Then there is the wood it's self to consider. Is it dense, light, stiff, does it ring or damp the resonance if you tap it?

It will take as long as it does, so just enjoy the process and remember, it's about the music.

If you want to hurry the process send your mando to Roger Siminoff for his "de damping" service.

[Spruce]

I'm curious how long it takes sitka to open up compared to red and englemann spruce. I realize it takes a while for red to open up and that englemann is practically open right out of the gate, but how does sitka fit into the scheme of things in terms amount of time required to really open up (on average)? Thanks.

Sitka opens up at 2 years, 4 months, and 23 days, whereas Englemann (sic) clocks in at 1 year, 7 months, and 2 days. Red, as we all know, takes longer, and opens up at 4 years exactly.
Red cedar and redwood never open up, and sound exactly the same 10 years off the bench as they did the day they were made...

Sorry, couldn't resist... ;)

But it does beg the question: "How would we go about proving any of this one way or the other??

[Skip Kelley]

Sitka opens up at 2 years, 4 months, and 23 days, whereas Englemann (sic) clocks in at 1 year, 7 months, and 2 days. Red, as we all know, takes longer, and opens up at 4 years exactly.
Red cedar and redwood never open up, and sound exactly the same 10 years off the bench as they did the day they were made...

Sorry, couldn't resist... ;)

But it does beg the question: "How would we go about proving any of this one way or the other??

:)) Thats funny!

[Ivan Kelsall]

My Weber Fern is 2 years old this Dec.What i mean is,i have been playing it for nearly 2 years. It's top is Sitka spruce & the back & sides are Maple. I think that this is Weber's 'standard' Fern build.
I would say that to my ears,the Mandolin really opened up after a good 18 months of playing,& i'm talking about 3-5 hours a day of playing,sometimes seriously & sometimes just noodling around while watching TV - it all helps. After nearly 2 years,i think that it sounds terrific. It's loud,when i need it to be,it has a superb, woody,bass side & the trebles are crystal clear all the way down the neck.
To me 'opening up' means that the Mandolin sounds louder when played with the same effort as before & the tone sounds more full & mellower in the bass,but still has a punch to it. The trebles become more clear/clean & have excellent intonation from top to bottom without much loss of volume. At least that seems to have been the effect of 'opening up' on my particular Mandolin,
Saska

[Hans]

Mandolins don't just "open up". It's a continuing process. Michael is right in that many factors are involved. In reference to thickness, it seems as though mandolins are built two ways these days. Some are built with the "modern" sound (I call it instant gratification), while others are built for a Loar type sound and are thicker.
A thicker instrument will take longer to break in, open up, etc. but is well worth the wait...

[Kevin Briggs]

Thanks for the clarification, Hans.

I've had my mandolin for less than a year, but it changed dramatically in the first three months. Now, it seems to be changing more slowly, but still changing all the same.

I find that playing it intensly for an hour or two has a miraculous effect. It tends to be a tight intsrument, and will clam up if I don't play it within' a 24 hour span. It takes about 30 minutes of playing chops, strumming it, and playing single notes to get it to warm up. However, once it gets there, I find it has a more lively response, and it sounds more brilliant in all respects.

Can anyone delineate the difference between opening up and warming up? Maybe we should start referring to "opening up" as maturing?

[sunburst]

Bruce, I was about to post almost the same thing when I first saw this question, but managed to resist somehow. Glad there's someone around that's not so worried about looking like a smart###! (Something I've been accused of more than once!) :grin:

[Ken Olmstead]

My Weber Fern (sitka top) is still opening up after 2 years of gobs of playing!! I have noticed that it is a gradual process like Hans said. I have also noticed that in this very organic process, it makes steps. For instance, as good as it sounds now, a couple weeks ago I was playing with a friend and it just exploded to incredible sonic qualities that I had never heard in any mandolins that I have played. The next day it was gone. However, over the last 2 weeks it has been progressing slowly back toward what I was hearing on that magical evening. It is like it gave me a peek into the future! Talk about motivating! Webers have a rep for being "tight" when new but the end result is worth the first year of breaking in. After that they rival avything out there. My Yellowstone was the same way except I did not have it as long. I have no doubt it will climb to soaring hights as well! So, Hans, your statement really rings true with me about "modern" vs. "traditional" building techniques.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Kevin - I tend to agree re.the Maturing description as long as it became 'common parlance' amongst players. But until it does i could see a conversation going thus :- First Guy/Gal - "How's your mandolin matured since you got it ?". Second guy "Well,it's opened up .............etc." I think you understand what i mean,it's hard to change what's become 'standard' terminology,
Saska

[lenf12]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but does anybody know what type of spruce was used on Gibson F-12's back in 1956. I have one that was regraduated and had the tone bars replaced by Randy Wood this past June. He advised me to play the heck out of it since it is essentially a brand new top with the work he did. I was wondering what to generally expect for how long it would take to "break in". It has opened up considerably since I got it back but don't know whether this process will continue for the next several months or years. It also tends to go to "sleep" pretty quickly if not played every day. Anybody have an opinion or guidelines that you care to share? BTW - I was complimented on the sound of the mandolin at our weekly jam a couple of days ago.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Dennis Russell]

Is this the reason Gibson puts their instruments in a chamber where sound waves are introduced a t special frequency for a period of time, I just wondered seeing there is discussion on this topic, I dont know this for a fact, just heard it from some others who are supposed to have inside knowledge, for instance a former Fender, salesman and representative, said something to this a while back.
I also read on the 13th fret .com that Martin Guitar conditions all of their guitars in a chamber with certain sound frequency's for a period of time, so I was just wondering hoiw it effects wood products.
A piano tuner and technician said something once upon a time that got me curious that old pianos that the back board made of hardwoods would be excellent woods to be used to manufacture smaller string instruments, because for years depending on the age that the sound waves has an effect on the wood. not something I made up I know a lot of musicians and some builders of other instrument other than Mandolin , Fiddle , or guitr builders, that talk about the sound waves effecting the wood........................Dennis in Az

[Ivan Kelsall]

Re.NEW instruments or instruments with a new TOP,as per.Len's Mandolin above,my only advice is to play the instrument as often & for as long as you possibly can. It's not up to the instrument alone,it won't open up by itself so help it along. As my favourite Banjo player,Scott Vestal says in a book that i have,''there's nothing like playing for 8 hours a day". When i got my Weber Fern i gave it a good 3 -5 hours a day of playing (i'm early retired so i'm able to do that),but as long as possible every day & you'll soon notice the difference. However,do make allowances for differences in temperature. It's getting towards a cold spell over here in the UK with as much as a whole 2" of snow (YES 2" !!!!) in some parts,& i've noticed that my Fern 'closes up' if it gets a bit on the cold side,so i just cuddle it closer while playing. I think our friend up in Alaska,Ken Almstead has a special tool to knock the icicles off his Mandolin ( only joking Ken ),but at least he doesn't warm it up by baking it,
Saska:grin:

[Dennis Russell]

I guess no one knows, I am wasting my time asking a question

[Ivan Kelsall]

You're not wasting your time asking such a question Dennis,it's waiting until the person who KNOWS actually reads it that takes the time.
Re.what Gibson do, is a question you might address to Big Joe Vest on here. He used to work for Gibson & maybe could give you the lowdown on what they do & why. As to whether such a process as you describe does make any difference at all,you'd have to compare a 'procesed' instrument with an 'un-processed' one. But bear in mind that the other factors such as the woods,the construction etc. would have to be identical in each instrument in order to make a 'correct' judgement.- re.any difference. There are so many parameters that can change the qualities of a wooden instrument,
Saska

[Rob Powell]

Dennis, I'm no luthier and I don't even play one on TV but I do know a couple of things about sound waves. I did some sympathetic vibration experiments a long time ago with various materials (metals, woods, plastics, synthetic and natural drum heads...) and the results were pretty amazing to me at the time.

All of the various materials had resonant frequencies at which the sympathetic vibrations were stronger and more consistent. As expected, they were stronger at higher volumes but some of the materials got more responsive at consistent volumes over time essentially reacting much like "muscle memory" in sports jargon.

One of the more interesting things to me was that regardless of the thickness of the material, the strongest sympathetic frequencies seemed to be consistent. That is, a thicker acrylic plate simply took more volume to respond but responded the most at or very near the same frequencies as thinner plates.

All that said, I'm not a true scientist either so my methods may have been flawed :)

In the end, I believe that Gibson and other builders may very well condition instruments by subjecting them to some volume of specific frequencies in a chamber. Of course, the voicing that a builder gives an instrument through graduations, finishes, bracing and tone bars have an effect on the responsiveness to those frequencies.

Rick B. said that the distressing process on my distressed yellowstone which has an "old wood" sitka top had more to it than just the finish. Of course he didn't reveal the process but I would tend to go with that as truth because the instrument was probably the loudest mandolin in the shop and was one of the youngest.

It was also the mando with the most bluegrass mojo of the ones I played. I suspect that it was intentionally voiced that way by Bruce Weber. I wouldn't say it was like a Loar but sounds more like Sam Bush's "Hoss."

Who's to say what it will sound like in a year or so though?

To the op's question of opening up and Kevin's observation about "clamming up", I think we have all experienced similar things. Like Kevin says, if I don't play the yellowstone for a few days it seems to be softer in a lot of ways until I get it good and warmed up. I assure you that's a rare occurrence ;)

It seems to me that the thinner the plates and finish, the more the mando responds to it's environment. I know that I went to a couple of outside jams this summer and in heat and humidity, the yellowstone was near impossible to keep in tune and was much quieter than normal. It still had the mojo sound but wasn't very loud.

At home, in a controlled heat and humidity environment, it holds tune and volume even when left sitting on a stand for days. I've also played it outside in milder temps and humidity and it reacts pretty much the same as inside my house.

So along with what Michael and Hans said regarding construction, I'm with Saska on this too...the physical environment will play a factor in the opening up as much as the materials and construction.

But it's all a glorious journey isn't it:cool:

[Geoff B]

warming up --> Opening up--> breaking in --> getting the mojo... hmmm....

I can't remember who said it (Gianni violins?), but massaging the plates lightly can help speed the "warming up" process. Of course one would have to be EXTREMELY careful on the top near the ff-holes, but I've had good results squeezing the top and back gently before sitting down for a session--a mini de-demping of sorts. It is like skipping the 30 minutes of waiting for the mandolin to remember what it is supposed to do, especially if you haven't played it in a while. It's like the silly thing still wants to be a tree sometimes.... jeez...

[mandolirius]

<warming up --> Opening up--> breaking in --> getting the mojo... hmmm....>

That's really the crux of it, isn't it? These are all subjective terms and pretty hard to quantify. That being said, I've been playing the hell out of my new aquisition, an '89 Flatiron F5 that hasn't had much playing in the past few years. I can already notice a difference.

[Arve Hermundstad]

The first couple of months after I got my mandolin, I could notice a difference in the sound almost from day to day. Now it has kind of settled down and does'nt vary much. But I do notice some subtle changes depending on the weather. That beeing said, isn't it a joy to play an instrument that's "alive" and has got caracter?

[Jerry Stapleton]

with you guys putting all that playing time into youre instrument, could it be that youre the one getting better and opening up as you learn to get the most out of youre instrument. I am sure the instrument gets better, but I also think the player does too.

[Nick Triesch]

I think sometimes a great mandolin is just born with a broken in sound. An example would be the two Apitius F5 mandolins that I had the chance to play when they were new several years ago. Just fantastic right out of the box. Two other mandolins with the same trait were two different Nugget F5 types that I got to play over the years. Just huge fantastic clear sound. Many Collings mandolins seem to sound great from the start also. I think that Kevin is on to something when he says his mandolin has a warming up period. I found that this is true with my Weber Fern also. After a good hour of playing it just springs to life. Nick

[Arve Hermundstad]

I find that the "warming up period" gets shorter if the instrument is played a lot. If I neglect one for maybe a week, (doesn't happen often), it takes longer to get the tone I'm used to than if I played it every day

[mandolirius]

<with you guys putting all that playing time into youre instrument, could it be that youre the one getting better and opening up as you learn to get the most out of youre instrument. I am sure the instrument gets better, but I also think the player does too.>

That's a good point but I've been playing for about 27 years and I don't think I'm going to get a whole lot better from a technical perspective. I keep broadening my repertoire and my horizons but I think I'm the "constant" in the equation :-)

[siminoff]

It's been my experience that Sitka and Englemann both "open up" at a similar but not identical rate. However, as many of you have suggested, it is absolutely dependent on many factors beyond just the species, including, but not limited to: age of wood, grain count, weight comparisons, molecular structure of the pieces in question, "silk" content, and so on. Even within the same species of wood, we have some instruments that open up in 20 or 30 hours and others that take 40 or more hours. Michael mentioned our de-damping service (thanks Michael!) but I also urge you to develop your own de-damping system. It's fairly easy to set up and I am sure you will be very surprised and pleased by the results. We've done quite a lot of instruments - from inexpensive models to those instruments from the best of the best - including guitars and fiddles, and have had pretty astounding results. (And, yes, we have had a few instruments that were not all remarkable and the change was, at best, minimal.) If you want to see some pictures of the systems we use along with some explanations of what is happening, and some descriptions of the various factors relating to de-damping, you might want to take a peek at the info in our de-damping web page at: http://siminoff.net/pages/siminoff_parts13-dedamping.html
Roger

[Dennis Russell]

Hello: then it is true as before on my thread on this subject on Novemebr 21, I was asking about introducing the instrument to different sound waves to help it open up, I said I didnt know this for a fact but overheard proffesionals claim this procedure of putting instruments in a chamber or something like this. The first Mandolin I built was in 1994, looks like ^&%$*# but now is starting to sound so so, when I first strung it up it sounded like the dickens, too loud and bright and tinty or however you call it. The Luthier on the other side of town who was giving me advice, said now you have finished it put it next to a speaker of your radio or stereo and turn on radio , leave it there for a week or so , running sound waves through it. I never did because I thought he was pulling my leg, and me being inexpereienced in this sort of thing made me be sceptical..............Dennis in Az

[siminoff]

Dennis, yes, it is absolutely true that subjecting your instrument to intense vibrational stimulus from some outside source will help break it in. You do not need a sound chamber. The most simple system would be to place your instrument on an instrument stand in front of the speaker cabinet of an electric keyboard instrument or audio system and play loud continuous sounds into it. If you use a keyboard instrument, you should be able to place your hand on the soundboard and/or backboard and feel it vibrate more intensely at some specific notes than it does at other notes. These would be the ideal frequencies to use (not because of the "frequencies" per se, but because of the more intense vibration the instrument is sympathetic to). In the absence of a keyboard, you can just play loud music into it. And, of course, there is the issue of your neighbors!!!!
Roger

[Hans]

Or...get a set of headphones with rotating cups, place them over the ff holes and lightly close the case. Turn your stereo up to 11 and let it go.

[Arnt]

Here's an article written by Rick Turner which deals with some of this. It describes a method of breaking in, or giving "instant vintage" sound, to an instrument.

Timber Tech's shaker table is like a heavy-duty loudspeaker with a 7,500-watt amplifier...

http://www.acousticguitar.com/Gear/advice/vibration.shtml

It says at the bottom that the article is excepted from Acoustic Guitar Magazine issue 50, 1997, I do not know if Timber Tech still offers this service or if the operation is still in existence.

[PhilTod]

Luthier Greg German in Colorado offers an "instrument vibration service" (under list of repair skills) http://www.germanguitars.com/repair/index.htm and references Henry Strobel's website http://www.henrystrobel.com/vibrate.htm

I have played a new, high end luthier's sitka topped guitar before and after Greg's service and the change was very noticeable. Much of that initial "tight" sound was loosened up-something that in my experience would have taken many, many playing hours to arrive at the same place.

[cudofcow]

I dont have too much experience with this, but honestly...the whole "opening up" thing...sounds to me like an old wives tale...

One of my friends does Reiki, which is a form of massage without touching someone from what i'm told...it draws energies or something from chakra...anyhow, i asked her to do this to my mandolin in hopes it would sound a lot better. It didnt work. Infact it sounds...exactly the same. but i did get to keep this cool orange stone she gave me.

[thistle3585]

If you vibrated a plate at the same frequency, with whatever medium on the plate that would show the Chladni pattern, would that pattern change over a period of time? Would that be an indication of a physical change in the wood as a result of the vibration?