Sale at Bernunzio's

[allenhopkins]

John Bernunzio here in Rochester is having a fairly major "it's the bad economy, stupid" sale. Quite a few mandolins marked down. He's taken about a grand off the F-2 he was selling, equal amounts off the two '30's Nationals, and about $2.5K off the F-7. Also banjos, guitars, etc. -- 181 items in all.

In case anyone's interested, here's a link to his home page. (http://www.bernunzio.com/) You can click on the sale page from there.

[Ken Olmstead]

This A50 oval caught my attention! If I didn't just buy that Redline Traveler mandolin I might have a go at this one....

http://www.bernunzio.com/item.php?sku=0811612

[Bernie Daniel]

So an 20's Gibson F2 sheds amost $1000 to go on sale -- would one assume that $2995 is the break even price and thus the original price $3950 amounted to an extra $955 profit in the pocket?

Or did the store perhaps acquire the mandolin for considerably less than $2995 in the first place?

Whatever is it a nice looking F2 -- I wonder if the top has not been oversprayed however? Also why is the tuner hanging over the edge of the headstock? Maybe some wood was cut away when repairing the headstock scroll?

[WindinBoy]

Those are good prices. If I needed a mandolin I would jump on a couple I saw there.

[allenhopkins]

So an 20's Gibson F2 sheds amost $1000 to go on sale -- would one assume that $2995 is the break even price and thus the original price $3950 amounted to an extra $955 profit in the pocket? Or did the store perhaps acquire the mandolin for considerably less than $2995 in the first place?

Well, can't speak for John B. (By the way: I should have said right up front that I have no financial interest in the success of his sale.) But dealers make calculations differently from those of us who buy and sell individual instruments. He may just have a lot of inventory right now and, looking at the financial pages, decide he needs to generate a positive cash flow in the immediate future. This may involve actually letting some instruments go "at a loss," since the money paid for them has already been spent, and they generate no return hanging on his wall. Obviously, he has to make money overall on his transactions, but not necessarily on every individual one. There can come a time when turning inventory into cash becomes a major consideration. Dealers may take out loans to increase inventory; banks may be calling in loans in the current market, since other parts of their portfolios (mortgage-backed securities, e.g.) ain't looking so reliable, and they need cash to weather the current storm.

Speculation on my part, but I'd be cautious in inferring from the current sale price, what a dealer "has into" any particular instrument. John's been going through a major expansion -- opening a downtown store, taking on lines of new instruments (Eastman, Recording King, Blue Ridge, etc.), when before he dealt almost exclusively in "vintage." Now he, and all of us, are facing what the press calls "the worst economic situation since the '30's." I think we're going to see a lot of changes on all sides of the market, in the next year or so.

[TomTyrrell]

There's a word for a dealer who doesn't make a profit.

That word is Closed.

[Mandobar]

i watch john's website frequently. there are some deals there, but nothing that radiates that his business is in trouble. a few years back a dealer i know had a 40% off sale on stuff that had been in the store for two years or more. new stuff was sold as used (no warranties) and used stuff that they had taken in trade was priced to sell. call it a purge, if you must.

i spoke with another dealer who told me that immediately after the election his business rebounded. so it depends on the dealer. many dealers are digging in and have an all or nothing attitude. no trades, no deals, so instead of taking something in they can resell easily and getting some cash in hand they seem to have the deer in the headlamp syndrome.

times change, business has to change. those who stay in business will be those who know "the art of the deal."

[Bob A]

I've known John since grade school, although I no longer live in the Rochester area, I visit every time I'm in the area. He has often expressed his philosophy of business to me; he feels that turnover is critical, and does not care to have stock languishing while he waits for top dollar. This might not necessarily apply to items that are on consignment, if the owner is willing to wait for his price. John is a believer in the velocity of money.

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in the shop or its stock.

Recommendation: Now is a good time to buy most anything, if you have the cash and the desire.

[Bernie Daniel]

There's a word for a dealer who doesn't make a profit.

That word is Closed.

Struggling to see where I (or anyone) a took a stand against making profits.

Speculation on how much profit was made -- is anti-capitalist? :)

[Mike Bunting]

Speculation on how much profit was made

It appeared to me that there was the implication that some sort of unfair pricing was happening, to wit
Or did the store perhaps acquire the mandolin for considerably less than $2995 in the first place?

[Bernie Daniel]

It appeared to me that there was the implication that some sort of unfair pricing was happening, to wit

Looking at my post I do not see the word "unfair".

As you correctly note you implied it.

To clarify -- I don't think a priori that any profit is "unfair" in this case.

But obviously it is true that if it is being sold for profit at $2995 then clearly selling at $3950 would have been additional profits.

People can decide for themselves what is fair or not. I don't really care in this case. Clear?

Anyway, that is a substantial price reduction -- but I would not say insturment dealers are any different than anyone other merchant.

When I see furniture do on "sale" for less than half price I always wonder how much they were making at the original price -- don't you?

But I usually don't say the original price was "unfair" as people were willing to pay it. Capitalism is OK with me.

[Mace]

Hey, its a sale folks. Enjoy! My bet John is about to acquire a significant purchase of instruments for some of the very reasons stated earlier and is accumulating cash. There have to be significant collections being marketed to large volume dealers.

[Bernie Daniel]

Agreed. I wish him the best with his sale.

And as I noted previously that seems to be a good price on a pretty nice looking F2.

[Ken Olmstead]

The sweetheart is the D'Angelico guitar at an almost $15k price reduction. Still a million miles away for me but certainly a desirable peice! Sorry, supposed to be talking mandolins! :redface:

[allenhopkins]

Apropos of dealers' pricing decisions: I seem to remember a few years ago that Elderly Instruments had a '40's vintage Martin D-45 on sale. This is another "Holy Grail" instrument; fewer than 100 were made. Elderly wanted, I think, $160K for it. They had it listed for awhile, then re-listed it with a price of $140K. I guess it sold.

But I was a bit floored by the fact that a dealer could drop their price by $20K in one fell swoop. You could fit a large part of my modest accumulation into that $20K. I went through all the speculative gymnastics we've done here: what did they pay for it, what was their projected profit margin, how did they set the original price, how was the market changing, what did the pricing change say about the value of comparable instruments, etc. etc.?

In the end, we all know that the "value" of an instrument is basically, what someone is willing to pay to obtain it. That number isn't infinitely elastic, but it is definitely influenced by overall economic conditions, by trends and fads, by competition in the market, and by the availability of alternative goods, as well as alternative possible uses for potential customers' money. All signs point to a rough period ahead, and it may well be that we're going to see a bit of retrenchment in instrument purchases, as we've already seen in overall consumer spending. Whatever manipulation and profit maximization a seller may hope to achieve, when there's a big storm, everyone gets wet to some degree.

[JeffD]

There's a word for a dealer who doesn't make a profit.

That word is Closed.

Yes, but I think Allen's point is that the profit is the overall revenue has to exceed the overall costs - it may be possible to break even or even lose a little on any partiuclar transaction. Certainly you don't want to make a habit of it.

[JEStanek]

There were several goodies there I was interested in (sub $1K items). Sigh. If wishes were mandos everyone would pick. Good luck, John!

Jamie

[Lee Callicutt]

I'm kinda' jonesin' for that Deering Sierra Banjo, myself. Oh and of course all the mandolins!

[jefflester]

This A50 oval caught my attention! If I didn't just buy that Redline Traveler mandolin I might have a go at this one....

http://www.bernunzio.com/item.php?sku=0811612

So what distinguishes that as a 30's? I guess the Gibson on the peghead could have been redone when it got refinished in the 50s? Cause that certainly looks like a 50s logo.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

agreed, doesn't appear to be pre WW2 A50.
rasa
jonathan reinhardt

[f5loar]

when you sent back a prewar mandolin in the post war years for repair either under the lifetime warrenty or not, it would be at the descression of the Gibson repairman at the time to do as he saw fit to fix it. This included many times total refinish. If it had a decal prewar decal it was removed during the process and a new post war logo put in its place. I've seen many done this way. The dealer clearly says it was redone in the 50's but the style and possibly FON show it to be a 30's.

[Ken Olmstead]

when you sent back a prewar mandolin in the post war years for repair either under the lifetime warrenty or not, it would be at the descression of the Gibson repairman at the time to do as he saw fit to fix it. This included many times total refinish. If it had a decal prewar decal it was removed during the process and a new post war logo put in its place. I've seen many done this way. The dealer clearly says it was redone in the 50's but the style and possibly FON show it to be a 30's.

hmmm...that is an interesting tid bit, thanks! I just think it looks cool. For that price it would be worth taking a chance on. Might be a decent little oval hole with some interesting aspects. Maybe not for the collecter crowd but for a guy that just wants to look cool...:)) :))

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

yes, the style would be the very first of the A50s, and certainly Mr. Bernuzio and f5loar know far more than I do about mandolins. apologies for my all my too brief look and comment. certainly proper identification does not depend merely on logos.
rasa
jonathan reinhardt

[Mandobar]

over the years d'angelico's have decreased in price for some reason. i had the opportunity to purchase one at $11k several years back, but passed. ($11k buys a lot of mandos)

[TomTyrrell]

Struggling to see where I (or anyone) a took a stand against making profits.

Speculation on how much profit was made -- is anti-capitalist? :)

Since I didn't specifically mention any individual's post could this be a case of "Methinks he doth protest too much"?

If you want to speculate, how much "extra" profit do you suppose the owners of the Denver Loar-signed Gibson F5 have in that $225,000 price tag?

[Bernie Daniel]

Since I didn't specifically mention any individual's post could this be a case of "Methinks he doth protest too much"?

If you want to speculate, how much "extra" profit do you suppose the owners of the Denver Loar-signed Gibson F5 have in that $225,000 price tag?

Perhaps because mine was the only prior post in the string that mentioned the word?

And I didn't protest I merely set the record straight -- to wit mentioning the word profit and speculation about profit does not imply that I have a problem with it.

How much profit do the aforementioned have in the Denver Loar?

I haven't a clue - probably a lot?

Is that like in John Denver Loar by the way? Whatever, more power to them anyone who is buying a Loar can probably afford it?

I bought a 1961 Gibson Hummingbird in 1963 for $250 and sold it 45 years later for over $4200 so profits on instruments are fine with me. :)

[CES]

I'm kinda' jonesin' for that Deering Sierra Banjo, myself. Oh and of course all the mandolins!

Ditto...that's one of the nicer prices I've seen on one of those in a while, assuming it's in as good shape as it appears...

Lots of eye candy in that sale page...I almost bit on a couple of the banjolins, but I think that might be my wife's worst nightmare (she's still trying to get me to use the banjo as kindling or to sell it to upgrade my mando, but I'm not sure if she knows the hybrids exist!).

Thanks for the info on the A-50 also, guys...can't come on here without learning something!

[TomTyrrell]

Is that like in John Denver Loar by the way? Whatever, more power to them anyone who is buying a Loar can probably afford it?

No, it is like the Loar-signed mandolin that showed up in Denver Colorado a short while ago. It was discussed quite a bit here and even in the regular press. Surprised you missed it.

Elderly has it listed but they don't actually have it at their shop. (http://elderly.com/vintage/names/gibson-f-5-%281924%29--90U-5005.htm)

[TomTyrrell]

Perhaps because mine was the only prior post in the string that mentioned the word?


"at a loss" is also a phrase that refers to profit. Go back and read Allen's post - the one directly above my post that you took exception to.

[woodwizard]

I sure would like to pick on the F4's F2 he's got for a little while. I'm still saving up at this time so I'm not quite ready to make a jump.

[Bernie Daniel]

TomTyrrell:"at a loss" is also a phrase that refers to profit. Go back and read Allen's post - the one directly above my post that you took exception to.

Whatever makes you happy. I am content to think that I was the only one to use the word "profit" but if you weren't referring to my post that's fine too -- however in my mental dictionary "at a loss" is the opposite of "profit" isn't it?

[Bernie Daniel]

woodwizard: I sure would like to pick on the F4's F2 he's got for a little while. I'm still saving up at this time so I'm not quite ready to make a jump.

You are talking about the 1919 double flowerpot? That is a very nice looking mandolin -- but think that price a still a bit high?

It does not have the original pickguard and it is one year too late for the Handel tuners and about 1 -2 years too soon for a truss rod.

Isn't $5K closer to the "right" price for that one?

[Bernie Daniel]

Ton Tyrell: No, it is like the Loar-signed mandolin that showed up in Denver Colorado a short while ago. It was discussed quite a bit here and even in the regular press. Surprised you missed it.

Now that you remind me I think I did hear about it -- the owners were stunned and had no idea when they went in for the apprasial? Yeah I remember that now.