endangered species enforcement for owners and builders

[Rroyd]

There is an article in the latest(?) issue of Fretboard Journal regarding the ramifications of zealous (or overzealous) enforcement of the endangered species act, and the potential consequences for owners of instruments with parts made of Brazilian rosewood, elephant ivory, and white abalone. (Like having your instrument confiscated.) The burden of proof rests with you to prove the age of the components, or that they are not materials from endangered species; and when you are dealing with folks like the ones mentioned in the thread on Mike Cleveland's Gilchrist, who knows what the consequences will be. (That nut on your Loar looks like white abalone to me, and I'll bet you just put it on.) It would seem to be an appropriate time for the community of instrument owners and builders to unite to try to bring about a reasonable solution in dealing with the situation and the bureaucracy in charge. Hopefully Mike can provide a link to the article, or at least pertinent sections, for anyone interested in reading about the situation.

[Capt. E]

If you have an antique instrument and wish to take it out of the country (sometimes even across state lines) you would be well served to get it a "passport" as well. If it indeed is made with materials from protected species, you should leave it at home. They can PERMANENTLY confiscate it even if it LOOKS like a protected species. All those nice pre-70's Gibsons with South American rosewood and Honduran mahogany, ivory nuts and bridges, abalone inlay, are endangered when traveling. Even fossilized Mammoth ivory can be confiscated. You tell me how you PROVE it isn't african elephant ivory. Have copies of your instrument documentation with you, manufacturer's specs, invoice, warranty card, etc.

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't think you'll find the Fretboard Journal articles online.

[first string]

I read that article, and it definitely scared me. I will need to take my instruments across the Canadian border in a few months, including my 1940 Martin O-18T (which has a Brazilian rosewood headstock veneer). The article told me who to contact here in the States about getting the proper paperwork, but it also mentioned that I would need to get Canadian papers for it, but didn't mention what agency would handle that there. It's going to take some research and time to find out I think.

I am very much in favor of the laws that have been put in place to protect what little remains of these precious species. But I think they could definitely make it easier for you to prove that your instrument was made long before the bans. What was most frightening about the article was that it said that once your instrument has been confiscated, you have no recourse to get it back. So if they took my tenor for instance, even if I subsequently proved beyond all doubt that it was made sixty eight years ago, they still wouldn't return it. That is just nuts.

[MikeEdgerton]

The Fretboard Journal does have this (http://www.fretboardjournal.com/current_issue/index.html) blurb regarding the article. If you've never see the Fretboard Journal I highly recommend that you take a look at it. It's an excellent magazine.

For posterity, the blurb is as follows:

"Hallowed Log: Brazilian Rosewood & the CITES Treaty
In this Fretboard Journal double-feature, we take a look at two issues affecting vintage guitar owners: the scarcity of Brazilian Rosewood and the impact of the CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) treaty on guitar collectors. For the first story, guitar builder Todd Lunneborg interviews some of the biggest names associated with Brazilian: Paul Reed Smith, Martin Guitars, Jeff Traugott. Lunneborg asks these builders what makes this wood so special. In the second essay, guitarist John Thomas interviews the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, guitar dealer George Gruhn and others about how CITES enforcement affects guitarists today. You may be surprised to learn what guitars can’t pass the CITES test for international travel. "

[Keith Erickson]

WOW!!! I have a good friend of mine who just made a guitar and used mammoth tusk for the bridge and the nut. I often thought to myself if there are any ramifications for his work.

This is a good topic for discussion and I'm sure this thread is on a very short leash already.

I will say this much....... There may be a change of attitude around here if we start to see some of our friends mandolins confiscated by bureaucratic pencil neck geeks and jack booted thugs from the EPA.

Passports for mandolins? Remind me.....what country is this again :mad:

Enough said :popcorn:

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't see any problems with this thread, it's a valid discussion.

[JeffD]

If you have an antique instrument and wish to take it out of the country (sometimes even across state lines) you would be well served to get it a "passport" as well.


Can anyone really do that within the US. Just across state lines? While I might not like it, I acknowledge it is unreasonable to expect the fourth amendment to apply when crossing an international boarder, but between states in the US?

Are there intances where this has happened?

[MikeEdgerton]

As long as we make this thread informational (if that's a word) and a thread that asks questions about the process it's fine. It should be seen as discovery.... what has happened, what could happen, what can one do to avoid the problem, etc.

If it becomes political it will die.

With that said, carry on. This could be valuable information for those of us that travel with musical instruments.

[first string]

WOW!!! I have a good friend of mine who just made a guitar and used mammoth tusk for the bridge and the nut. I often thought to myself if there are any ramifications for his work.

This is a good topic for discussion and I'm sure this thread is on a very short leash already.

I will say this much....... There may be a change of attitude around here if we start to see some of our friends mandolins confiscated by bureaucratic pencil neck geeks and jack booted thugs from the EPA.

Passports for mandolins? Remind me.....what country is this again :mad:

Enough said :popcorn:

Well I don't think this thread needs to delve into politics and thus become ineligible for discussion on the cafe, but you seem to be steering it in that direction. I think perhaps the regulations on transport need to be adjusted and made more transparent, but I don't agree with your characterization of the hard working people tasked with safeguarding our dwindling natural resources. Let's keep it civil, and avoid insulting hyperbole.

[Keith Erickson]

Let me ask this question: If a mandolin is found to have parts that are made from endangered species, what happens to the confiscated mandolin? Who keeps it? What is the recourse that one has to address this grievance and have have the private property returned?

I am truly concerned because my mandocello has parts that are made of rosewood.

[first string]

Let me ask this question: If a mandolin is found to have parts that are made from endangered species, what happens to the confiscated mandolin? Who keeps it? What is the recourse that one has to address this grievance and have have the private property returned?

I am truly concerned because my mandocello has parts that are made of rosewood.

Well I share your concerns as you will see if you read my first post in this thread. I just don't think the answer to the problem is to denigrate civil servants. They don't make the laws. And I would reiterate that we definitely do need laws to protect these species. They just need to be smarter laws that take into account the fact that many musical instruments were made with these materials when it was still perfectly legal to do so. And once again, I agree that there should be a recourse for those who are unprepared and have their instruments confiscated, to get the proper paperwork and have their instruments returned.

[Tom Gibson]

I don't see any problems with this thread, it's a valid discussion.

This struck me as an odd post, since it was immediately preceded by one that called me a bureaucratic pencil neck geek and a jack booted thug.

If people are interested in CITES, they can read about it at www.cites.org, www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/plant_imports/cites_endangered_plants.shtml and www.fws.gov/international/DMA_DSA/CITES/CITES_home.html.

[GRW3]

RANT:

None of these laws protect any of these species. Anything without an economic value is worthless.

If you are indigenous tribe in the Amazon and you can preserve a stand of trees that includes Brazillian Rosewood for the pleasure of bureaucrats in Brasillia, North America and Europe or you can burn it down and grow soy to make biodiesel, what would you do?

If you are a substinance farmer in Africa and you can let the elephants keep trampling and eating your crops for the pleasure of said bureaucrats or you can kill them, what would you do?

It's just as bad to impose poverty on people for your concious as to burden them with our 'culture'.

A few years ago I read about a program that hare-lipped the "thou shalt" environmentalists. Somewhere around Yellowstone (I think) they ran a program to pay ranchers for the livestock the wolves ate instead of beating them remorselessly to leave the wolve alone. Guess what? The wolves thrived.

If PETA got their way about eating meat there would be no beef cattle, no pigs, no chickens or any other food animal. If they kept us from eating seafood we could just dam up all those rivers for power because we would not need salmon. If they pesuaded us that milk and cheese were taboo too there would be no cows of any variety.

If something has no economic value, it is worthless.

RANT over:

[first string]

RANT:

None of these laws protect any of these species. Anything without an economic value is worthless.

If you are indigenous tribe in the Amazon and you can preserve a stand of trees that includes Brazillian Rosewood for the pleasure of bureaucrats in Brasillia, North America and Europe or you can burn it down and grow soy to make biodiesel, what would you do?

If you are a substinance farmer in Africa and you can let the elephants keep trampling and eating your crops for the pleasure of said bureaucrats or you can kill them, what would you do?

It's just as bad to impose poverty on people for your concious as to burden them with our 'culture'.

A few years ago I read about a program that hare-lipped the "thou shalt" environmentalists. Somewhere around Yellowstone (I think) they ran a program to pay ranchers for the livestock the wolves ate instead of beating them remorselessly to leave the wolve alone. Guess what? The wolves thrived.

If PETA got their way about eating meat there would be no beef cattle, no pigs, no chickens or any other food animal. If they kept us from eating seafood we could just dam up all those rivers for power because we would not need salmon. If they pesuaded us that milk and cheese were taboo too there would be no cows of any variety.

If something has no economic value, it is worthless.

RANT over:

Now this is really off topic and out of bounds. I would also add that the argument against CITES that you put forward has been debunked. If the bans hadn't been put in place there would be absolutely no Brazilian Rosewood or elephants left. Of course conservation is not as simple as just banning something, and we need to be doing a lot more to create viable economic alternatives to poaching. But the idea that allowing another free for all of harvesting rosewood and ivory would somehow magically result in sustainable management, is preposterous.

[Timbofood]

The issue of "crossing state lines" is where I get interested, Who is going to chase me down and have me produce documentation for the instruments in the first place? Oh, my GOD... "THE GUITAR POLICE?"
Will the state trooper that pulls you over for speeding have that power?
I am not against the premise of the CITES treaty I just wonder how it can be efffectively, and efficently it can be enforced.
I believe the word you were looking for is one I lost once too Mike, That would be "informative"
(That's the trouble with having teachers as parents, there's always something else)

[San Rafael]

My, my. We have a little tizzy going, don't we. Can anybody here provide one honest story of their own instrument being "confiscated"? And yet rude names and defiant bluster are already being tossed around.

It's a classic "straw man." Men made of straw are so much easier to knock over than the real thing. If you're feeling political today, run on down to the voting booth, and please leave the culture wars off the Cafe.

[GRW3]

Saying its not true is not the same as debunking it. Acres and Acres of land in Brazil are burned every day to grow crops for biodiesel and there are continuous reports of 'poachers' killing elephants.

[Ted Eschliman]

We're done, here.