Breaking Bad Habits

[Phillip Tigue]

So, I was taking stock recently...really spending time thinking and watching my playing. Trying to look for bad habits I've picked up over the years in playing. Having taught myself, the number abounds. So, I'll start...

My name is Phillip, and the inside of my thumb hugs the neck and I post my pinky when I tremolo.

I'm in the process of taking a step backwards in my playing, so I can move forward.

Anyone else want to admit their bad habits?

-Phil

[groveland]

None here.










:grin:

But seriously, here's one I've been working on - By habit I use my pinky far too much. Yes, I know, most posts here (including mine), encourage pinky use. That's a really good thing, but in my case, old guitar/zouk habits have that pinky doing a lot of work better suited for the ring finger on the mandolin. I now find that using the "recommended" mandolin fingerings - Get this - Actually improves tone, and there's no dexterity lost! (Duh.) So I am rewiring my tunes. The pinky's always there when I need it because it's had a 30-year workout, but I have to convince it to let the other guys do more of the work!

[TomTyrrell]

<<the inside of my thumb hugs the neck>>

Not sure exactly what you mean there but it doesn't sound like a bad habit to me.


<<I post my pinky when I tremolo>>

So does Evan Marshall and that is what he teaches.

[Phillip Tigue]

I just mean that I wind up with a "death grip" on the neck. So much so that my thumb hangs over onto the strings. I'm trying to relax a little more.

[TomTyrrell]

Yup, the "death grip" is a habit you need to break. I think my thought keys for that were to keep the wrist straight and not try to press the strings all the way down to the fretboard.

[John Flynn]

Well, I beat the posting thing. It took me a year or more. Then I got an instructor who told me I SHOULD post! Go figure! For the record, I ignored him, although I don't think posting is really a bad thing to do. I think it's a bad thing to HAVE to do. My guess is that Evan Marshall could probably play a lot better than average without posting!

I guess my worst habit is continually convincing myself that I've gotten something down, whether a tune or technique, and can move on without practicing it some more. My current instructor (NOT the one mentioned above!) says "over-practice." He also says "listen first, then learn." I guess that is my second worst habit. Not listening enough before I try to learn something. I'm getting better at beating those two, but they are still with me.

As far as technique, I guess my biggest two struggles are having knowledge of the fretboard ingrained in muscle memory and pick direction. I'm OK at those, but I could be a lot better. I'd also like to improve my sight reading and ear training.

But other than that, I don't have any really "bad" habits, so I'm not sure what you're talking about! :mandosmiley:

[JeffD]

I am an all too flawed player. I generally do not try and reverse a bad habit until it becomes obvious to me that the habit is holding me back, preventing me from reaching "the next level". I just don't have the discipline or patience to work on things before they are a problem. I don't even worry about them.

Probably not the best way to go.

On the other hand, it has been a glorious ride, and every couple of years I "discover" that if I only look at it this way, or try avoiding this little thing, my playing improves gigantically, or that little riff I want to play comes more easily, or the hand doesn't get as tired, or goes faster, and the instrument becomes new again.

So my plan is to play often, play hard, and when a habit causes me to crash into the wall, I will call it a bad habit and reverse it.

Please don't emulate me. I am having too much fun. :mandosmiley:

[woodwizard]

... Actually improves tone, and there's no dexterity lost! (Duh.) So I am rewiring my tunes. The pinky's always there when I need it because it's had a 30-year workout, but I have to convince it to let the other guys do more of the work!

***
Got the same problem of using my pinky when I should use other fingers and I too am working on not doing that... sort of revamping my picking on some of those tunes. It actually makes things easier when you get it in your head to save the pinky to use when needed but "old habits" ... you seem to do without thinking. I'm getting a little better I can tell. I don't post but rest my palm/rist lightly near/behind the bridge. I think that's good but I've noticed at times when I'm playing (chops) I sometimes drag my fingers that I'm not holding the pick with across the pickguard. I'm trying to change that by always curling my fingers in and keeping everything relaxed at the same time.
I think I'm getting pretty good at not doing that but I have to always think about not doing it. Bad habbits are pretty hard to break. :mandosmiley:

[TomTyrrell]

If you're worried about "bad habits" spend some time on youtube watching the videos of the great players. You might just discover that those great players don't really do it the way the "book" says you should.

Just one example, Bill Monroe played with an open right hand. As he got older his hand opened up even more.

[WestCoastMandoGirl]

I don't know if this is considered a habit or what, but I have major trouble reading tab. Since I am accustomed to reading music, and in the "f" clef (viola) to boot, when I first look at a piece of tab my mind first flashes to the "wrong" clef and then the staff lines trick me into thinking I'm looking at standard notation. When I see the fret numbers on the tab, I immediately think back to the finger numbers that used to litter the notation when I first started learning viola; sometimes those numbers correspond to the fret numbers and sometimes not. My mind is constantly having to shift gears. It can be an exhausting process but I am getting better at it, I guess.

[Dragonflyeye]

I've only been playing 11 months, but have noticed that many of the greats indulge in a wide variety of bad habits. I started out with my thumb stuck way up, which limited my (already limited) reach. My first teacher tried and tried to get me not to do it, to no avail. I had one solo lesson with Peter Ostroushko, who said "Why don't you try and stop that?," so I did. Mind over matter, I guess. On the other hand, PO plants pinkie (and so far, I don't), so . . . .

Anita

[CES]

Since I am accustomed to reading music, and in the "f" clef (viola) to boot, when I first look at a piece of tab my mind first flashes to the "wrong" clef and then the staff lines trick me into thinking I'm looking at standard notation. When I see the fret numbers on the tab, I immediately think back to the finger numbers that used to litter the notation when I first started learning viola; sometimes those numbers correspond to the fret numbers and sometimes not. My mind is constantly having to shift gears. It can be an exhausting process but I am getting better at it, I guess.

I'm having the opposite issue...I used to play sax, and when I seen notation I automatically think in sax fingerings. I started learning guitar (on loan while saving to buy a banjo, both of which eventually led me to mando) by tab, and thus don't have trouble reading tab for either of the three instruments. BUT, in learning standard notation for the mando I'm having to retrain my site recognition...it's getting there but is slow...at least I'm in the right clef!

Technique wise, I intermittently rest my pinky when I'm playing runs (typically not while strumming, and I'm not beating myself up about it at this point :grin:), and I've noticed lately that I tend to tense my right wrist up when I try to play fast, which is totally counterproductive.

Also, I tend to just try to "play stuff" without really learning the theory behind what I'm learning; in an effort to play songs I'm hindering my long term development.

I pretty much vaccuum at this point anyway...:(

[UnityGain]

On the other hand, it has been a glorious ride, and every couple of years I "discover" that if I only look at it this way, or try avoiding this little thing, my playing improves gigantically, or that little riff I want to play comes more easily, or the hand doesn't get as tired, or goes faster, and the instrument becomes new again.

So my plan is to play often, play hard, and when a habit causes me to crash into the wall, I will call it a bad habit and reverse it.

Please don't emulate me. I am having too much fun. :mandosmiley:

Yeah, I totally agreee, but you should probably emulate me either.

I try to get my playing to come from my heart and not from my head. Bad habits to others are just my playing style I think. Does it hold me back? I'm sure it does. Can I play superfast flying runs and go crazy with arpeggios? Nope. Do I use my instrument as my way of making music? Yup. Thats what concerns me more. If I feel something isnt working, I change it. I listen to my notes, I want them to be as pretty as I can make them, and sometimes that leads to some ugly technique, but its usually because I want a certian sound. I dont want to be thile, I dont want to be marshal, I dont want to be bill. And if you practice every day and get perfect form and technique, you'll probably have better technique and sound better than I do, but I'm trying to be less and less concerned about that. Hope this helps.

Ok thought about it a little bit more. I have bad technique, but I'm not all that worried about it. I'm worried WAY more about hearing the notes I want to play in my head than playing them. Getting my fingers to go where I want them is the easy part. Figuring out what those notes should be is the hard part. I play mostly with other people on original tunes or unrehearsed jams, so if its doesn't come from my head, it doesnt exist.

[mandosonthemarsh]

Yes, the death grip thing is a real killer! One thing I have noticed lately is that if I lower the pad of my thumb on the middle of the neck and try to relax as much as possible I have alot more control over my fingers. Also I am working on what I call finger independence. Being able to play any cord progression with different combinations of fingers. What has helped me is trying to be more disciplined with having control and feeling and knowing where my fingers are and how to switch them in a conscious mannor. Watching the movement helps.

[Phillip Tigue]

Speaking of chords...I have trouble with a barre in front of another note...so for instance 4-4-2-0. I don't know if my fingers are fat, or if I should try to get them both with one finger or what...it's killing me though.

[Jim Broyles]

Yeah, I have skinny fingers and I'd just grab the 4-4 on the G and D strings with one finger, in this case my ring finger, and hit the B note on the A string with my index finger.

[Dragonflyeye]

Speaking of chords...I have trouble with a barre in front of another note...so for instance 4-4-2-0. I don't know if my fingers are fat, or if I should try to get them both with one finger or what...it's killing me though.

Yes - try to get them both with one finger. It is tricky. Helps to work on a bit of double jointedness!

[Mandojulie]

I don't know if this is considered a habit or what, but I have major trouble reading tab. Since I am accustomed to reading music, and in the "f" clef (viola) to boot, when I first look at a piece of tab my mind first flashes to the "wrong" clef and then the staff lines trick me into thinking I'm looking at standard notation. When I see the fret numbers on the tab, I immediately think back to the finger numbers that used to litter the notation when I first started learning viola; sometimes those numbers correspond to the fret numbers and sometimes not. My mind is constantly having to shift gears. It can be an exhausting process but I am getting better at it, I guess.



Wow, I thought I was the only one who had trouble reading tab.

My biggest problem, along with the ones MandoGirl and CES mention, is that tab has no way of communicating direction. Is it an ascending or descending phrase? Is it two notes that are far apart on the scale or close together?

I also have trouble with the different types of tab. I do best with Mel Bay tab and lousiest with tab off of this site.

Again, I thought I was the only one. Big relief!

Julie

[250sc]

The worst bad habit is not playing and progressing as a musician. I think technique takes care of its self. Watching all the "bad habits" that so many great musicians have kind of shoots down the idea of one proper way of doing things.

[Phillip Tigue]

The worst bad habit is not playing and progressing as a musician. I think technique takes care of its self. Watching all the "bad habits" that so many great musicians have kind of shoots down the idea of one proper way of doing things.

Not progressing hit the nail on the head. So many roadblocks!

[JeffD]

I think that when I find myself not progressing, stuck at one level and knowing that there is another level - that is my cue to get a lesson. Go to a workshop or get an instruction book or have a knowledgeable friend watch me. A small but extremely pleasant epiphany happens, I look at my instrument in a new way, and all of a sudden I am moving forward again. And what ever changed, well that must have been a bad habit.

The best thing I ever did for my mandolin playing was take fiddle lessons. I took lessons for several years, during which time I was put on a mandolin diet.

Yea I learned fiddle, and I got just to the point where its not painful for me to hear myself play, though I am not sure of my audience. But what it did for my mandolin playing is amazing. I learned a whole new way to look at the fret board, moved way up the neck once I learned third position, (oh, you're allowed to do that?), learned economy in finger movement (leave them digits down on the strings), I learned ways to make my practice time more effective, I learned how to break a complicated piece down to facilitate learning it, a revolution in mandolin progress the momentum of which I am still experiencing.

[Phillip Tigue]

Jeff...I heard Vic Wooten speak once about music. He said that he pretty much did the same thing you're talking about. He'd think, "how can I play piano on this bass?" or "how can I make this sound like a banjo." Certainly opened up his playing I'd say.

[Bertram Henze]

A more recent enlightenment of mine was the discovery that my OM is not a banjo :disbelief:

Coming from the dark side, I was so used to having high output with the slightest touch with a light pick on one hand and to having to fill every split second with triplets to keep the sound going on the other.
For several years, I did'nt notice I could now use sustain instead. Rattling away on the OM like I did on the banjo and producing considerable volume at the same time was as hard and as dumb as cutting a tree with a chainsaw without ever starting the motor.
I started to look at zouk players in sessions with envy, just banging away at their chords and double stops, looking smug and easy; but I still wanted to play melody, so I tried a compromise and started to customize tunes for a mixture of fast single-note runs on the easy parts and long-sustain double stops on the difficult ones, hoping not to ruin too much of the original beauty. And it worked much better that I had expected. With the right choice these shortcuts can make the tune even more interesting. Afterwards I noticed that fiddlers use a similar approach.

In this case, improvement was gained by playing the real instrument as such instead of trying to play a different one.
Nevertheless, I understand Jeff's experience with learning the violin, because that was the instrument I came from before picking up the mandolin and joining the dark side afterwards. I cannot imagine successful left hand technique other than a violinist's.

Bertram

[Barbara Shultz]

Wow! Like a confessional, eh?

I play the mandolin, OM, cittern, and tenor banjo tuned in Irish Tuning. I play melody, and mostly Old Time, Traditional, & Irish/Celtic tunes.

I started out without paying any attention to pick direction, as my instructors and fellow band members don't think that matters. So, I try to play the tunes that I already know well (but probably play all wrong, pick direction-wise), slow them down, and concentrate on getting my pick direction right (cause I think it DOES matter). I find that in tunes that I have a part I stumble on, it's usually due to pick direction. I find that it really helps to tap my foot (on beats 1, 2, 3 & 4 if it's a tune in 4/4, on beats 1 & 4 if it's in 6/8, on beats 1, 2 & 3 if it's in 3/4, beats 1, 4 & 7 if its in 9/8) and concentrating on my pick direction being DOWN when my foot tapping. I can read standard notation, so if I'm having difficulty, I try to find the notation of the song, to make sure I've got the tune right, and will also count the beats outloud, to help. When I'm doing this, I do it at SNAILS pace, till I've got the count/beat/pick direction right, then keep playing it over and over, speeding it up, till I'm back up to speed, and have corrected the pick direction mistakes. I would say that this is one of the MAJOR benefits of reading notation... you can tell if they are quarter notes, triplets, eighth notes, etc., and just what the rhythm is supposed to be, and makes it WAY easy to grasp pick direction. Hornpipes are in 4/4, so they are up down up down, EXCEPT for all those triplets along the way, so you really have to concentrate, and make sure you throw the down-up-down into the mix...

Flying fingers. I'm now working on that one. Isn't it amazing how you can understand what you want your fingers to do, but trying to get that neural pathway to make it happen!! In the past, one thing that I used as an excuse was that it hurt my hand to keep my fingers down.. too much pressure. I just discovered that I was keeping my hand in a position where my fingers were hovering outside of the E strings, but that if I slightly moved my hand position to where they were hovering more OVER the fingerboard, it took less pressure to keep my fingers on the strings. The one that gives me the MOST trouble, is keeping my 3rd finger on the A strings, 5th fret (D), while playing the E strings. If you don't have your hand / finger JUST right, it mutes or buzzes the E strings. So, I figured that was a good exercise.. keep my 3rd finger down on the 5th fret of the A strings, and practice playing up and down the E strings! It seems to be working!

How I hold the pick. Along with that, how I strike the strings.

So, when I'm practicing, not so much learning a tune, but working on all the above on a tune I already know... I will start playing the tune, and stare at whichever hand, and think about what I'm trying to work on (left hand position, flying fingers, cleanly holding a string without touching an adjacent string; right hand, how I'm holding the pick and picking the strings). While I'm staring, I'm just beaming the thought toward that hand, that I'm working on. Then, I'll close my eyes, and play the tune, and LISTEN to how it sounds. I'll also play while doing something else, like watch TV (not that often), work on the computer (all the time!), listen to a conversation (I still can't converse while playing, but maybe that will come!). This really helps cement a tune into your fingers, without your brain having to think about it at all! I've read where playing in front of a mirror is good, and have tried it some (I guess I need to put a mirror next to my computer monitor, haha!) and it is amazing how hypnotic that is!

I have also found that playing the different instruments, which are all in the same tuning (the cittern has an extra pair of strings to have to get your mind around!).... but different scale length, thus, different fingerings, improves my abilities on ALL the instruments. The little nuances of differences between the instruments... with the tenor banjo, it is very sensitive, so I have to barely press down the strings, or I distort the sound. Learning how to do that, has helped me with the death grip that I tended to have with the mando. Playing the longer scaled instruments, you just have to use your pinky, so when you go back to the mando, that's not a problem any more!

One of the things I'm luckiest in, is that I play with a band, and we practice together twice a week (unluckiest is that they all live 50 miles from me, so that's 200 miles a week I have to drive to do it!) But, playing WITH other people makes such a big difference, and it's WAY more fun!

Barbara

[Bertram Henze]

I still can't converse while playing, but maybe that will come!

Do not be dissappointed if it doesn't - that seems to be a more fundamental neural wiring. It took me 25 years to be able to say "one more" at the end of a tune. I still can't say the name of the next tune in the set. People used to make fun of me, asking "what's your name?" while I was playing... :mandosmiley:

Bertram

[Barbara Shultz]

I need to edit.... past the allowed 'edit' time period.

On the pick direction, I said that on hornpipes I pick up down up down, and I meant down up down up!

Barbara