Water soaked wood?

[docmarc2771]

One of the guys in my band has a cabin in northern Wisconsin...while staying there he came across a thriving business specializing in 'lost wood' - timber that had been sunk for generations in lakes in the area. The business owner claims that the best violins, from the time of Stradiveri, were always made with wood that was soaked in water 'to drive the sap out'...after drying, the wood was then carved into fiddle backs and tops...urban legend?

[Scotti Adams]

ABOUT THE WOOD In the late 1800's, a vast number of logging operations sprang up on the shores of Lake Superior. During this logging "boom", hundreds of sawmills dotted the area and virgin trees, many of which were saplings when Columbus discovered America, were felled and floated onto the Lake for retrieval. Due to their weight, many of these became waterlogged and sank to the bottom of the Lake where they lay for up to 150 years in very icy and oxygen deprived water. This created the "anaerobic effect" in which bacteria feed on nutrients within the cells, leaving them in their pristine open shape... (unlike normal air dried and seasoned wood where cells tend to close and deform). This openness of the wood cells provides an amazing resonance... up to 30% more than standard old seasoned woods. The open cells also dramatically enhance the velocity of sound through the wood. In 1992, Superior Water-Logged Co., which produces the Timeless Timber®, began bringing up these logs from the bottom of Lake Superior. The Company has developed, at great expense, a proprietary drying process and they exactingly grade each piece. Also check out www.timelesstimber.com Urban legend?..naw....the real McCoy.

[Spruce]

"Urban legend?..naw....the real McCoy. "

It's all a lot of mega-hype to justify an incredibly inflated price-per-board-foot for material that is not all that special to begin with...

Just my opionion, of course...

[mandolooter]

I would tend to agree with Bruce, and altho I have no real knowledge to base my opinion on, I still have the opinion!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Scotti Adams]

..hey..I didnt write it..I just copied and pasted the article... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Spruce]

Uh, we figured that out... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jim Hilburn]

I once heard they were more interested in selling company stock than lumber. Total hear say. When I asked about it they basically told me to take a number and get in line.

[WaywardFiddler]

The story I heard about Stradiveri goes something like this....

Trees were logged, and branded by the logger. Then put in the river to float down to the mills. Once there they had to stay in the water until the tax had been paid on them. Nobody dared pull them out of the water bofore the tax had been paid for fear of the wrath of the tax man. Now, as I heard the tale, Italian beaurocrats have been pretty much the same since the time of the Ceasars... stroll into work none-too-early. A little coffee. A little chat. A little paperwork. Long lunch break. Stroll over to the river to collect tax on a log or two... stroll back. Afternoon tea. A little more office chat. Head home early. Some of those logs sat in the river a year or more.

You can imagine the violin makers of old cursing the wet wood they had to buy and dry *forever* before they could use it. There are people who say that this soak/dry cycle is part of the secret of Stradivarius. But then again, most people who have "discovered" the secret of Stradivarius are, um... you know.

[Spruce]

"Some of those logs sat in the river a year or more."

The perfect recipe for creating fungus in a European spruce or maple log unless they are totally submerged...

[WaywardFiddler]

The perfect recipe for creating fungus

In fact, that is the evidence for the theory. Apparently, bits of material that have been removed during repairs show evidence of fungus.

[Spruce]

"In fact, that is the evidence for the theory."

I'm talking green-dot fungal infestation in maple or complete blue-stain in the sapwood in spruce...
I speak from experience...

There may have been some other wood treatment that created slight fungal discoloration in the wood from those instruments, but I doubt it involved soaking the logs in fresh water for a year before milling...

The results are usually not very pretty...

[WaywardFiddler]

Spruce,
I'm no wood expert, and I know you are. Just reporting my recollection of a story heard on a TV documentary. Probably produced by a person who learned everything he knows about violins by interviewing everybody who left a message on his voice mail claiming to have found the "secret of Stradivari". Inluding this guy (http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/), I think.
Anyway, the "fungal evidence" was supposed to be small amounts of remaining inactive fungus visible under small power magnification.... not huge splotches. In any case, I'll leave exotic woods to the experts and go back to whittling the cheap stuff.

[ehb86]

I recently attended a workshop that Roger Siminoff did on Mandolin building, and he was asked about this type of wood. My recollection is that he had tested some and felt it was very brittle and not a particularly good wood for musical instruments. I believe it also appeared under a microscope as though the cells were deteriorated.

[Fretbear]

Bryan Sutton's 1995 Bourgeois "Slope D" has a top made from a piece of Alaskan Sitka spruce that was cut from a reclaimed log that had been used in a salmon trap and was submerged for over 50 years. Bourgeois describes the back and sides as "cut from the heaviest plank of mahogany that I have ever hefted."
Of this very small bodied guitar (inspired by Gibson's Advanced Jumbo design) he says: "it has the kind of sound that I strive for in my Bluegrass guitars, and in that sense it is an anomaly. Besides having great treble presence, it also has a deeper bass than is usually associated with mahogany guitars; and it's much louder than what I can usually get out of mahogany and sitka."
Bryan Sutton just calls it the "Banjo Killer."

[Michael Lewis]

Spruce has a pretty good perspective of the wood business, after all, he's been in it for a good number of years. If that wood were really as good as the sales pitch says I'm sure he would be selling it too.

I have yet to hear of good results from using the reclaimed submerged wood for musical instruments. I'm still waiting to hear from some one that has used it and can actually say that it is superior (or even equal) to our standard intelligently processed tone wood. (Thanks Bruce)

[Spruce]

"If that wood were really as good as the sales pitch says I'm sure he would be selling it too."

I have sold submerged wood--a log that held up a houseboat in Ketchikan for 25 years, as well as numerous beach logs and a few Engelmann that had come from the bottom of lakes--but for exactly the same price as fresh wood.

When you start seeing writeups in USA Today, the N.Y. Times, the L.A. Times, etc. etc. about an interesting business that in reality is unable to supply material at an incredibly inflated price, it's time to start asking questions...

I did, and came to my own conclusions....

I'm sure that there has been some interesting wood harvested from the bottom of lakes, but why the exorbitant pricing and hype?
It's my understanding that most of this wood is pulled from depths of 15' or so. #What, a barge and a cherry picker costs more than on-land cats and a short-loader?
It's probably just as dangerous to SCUBA-dive down and attach a choker under 15' of water as it is setting one on dry land, so where's the expense?

I do know that some of these outfits have been shut down for enviornmental concerns as well, so that kinda kills the Green stance that many of these businesses take too...

I guess it's the hype that bugs me, whether it's someone doing interviews on CBS saying that they've discovered the secrets of Stradavari, or the incredible hype that surrounded the Lake Superior logging.

The press never seems to let the facts get in the way of a good story, and inflated profits are usually not far behind...

[Scotti Adams]

..Interesting Bruce....Im on your side of the fence....by the way...was the Englemann that I got from you some of that submerged stuff?...

[Spruce]

Hi Scotti...
Nope, sorry...

I got a log of submerged Engelmann that was a consistant 8-10 grains-per-inch (hard to find, contrary to the belief that tight grained wood is harder to find), and it all went to a cello maker...

It really didn't look all that different than the fresh stuff once it dried out...

The submerged hardwoods do have a different appearance however, with a brownish cast to the wood...

You can also achieve this appearance by boilng the wood till it sinks (about 3 weeks), and then letting it dry slowly...

Quite a few violin makers are experimenting with this particular wood treatment, trying to achieve the look and opacity of the wood in the old instruments.

[JGWoods]

The banjo world seems to have taken to "Timeless Timber" submerged wood for rims. Many companies offer them as an option, including Stelling.
Then again, it may be as you say- not good for musical instruments.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

gw

[sunburst]

I've heard Stelling banjos that were converted from "regular" wood rims to "old" wood rims and tho the owners thought they sounded much better in most cases, there was very little difference to my ear, and in one case I thought the banjo sounded much better before.
I'm with Bruce. It's mostly hype.

[Spruce]

"Then again, it may be as you say- not good for musical instruments.... "

Oh, I think the stuff is fine for instruments, and in fact desirable. #I just don't think it's the panacea that everyone makes it out to be, and I don't think it's worth the money that they want for the stuff...

That, and I think you can duplicate the wood at home (for relatively small musical instrument woods, that is) in a few weeks with a modest set-up....

As to their claim that the timber back then was old-growth hardwood and unobtainable now, I've seen tons of hardwood logs recently in sawmills (in Ohio a couple weeks ago, for instance) with old-growth (16 GPI and more) characteristics...
Sure, it's a smaller percentage of the pile than it used to be in the late 1800's, but it's still available...

[mad dawg]

Forget water soaked wood -- how about this Fylde mandolin that spent its previous life as a keg of Single Malt!

[Luthier]

[QUOTE]I've heard Stelling banjos that were converted from "regular" wood rims to "old" wood rims

I build banjos as well and for what it is worth, the sound color and quality tone on a banjo is dictated mainly by the tone ring material (such as bell bronze), the head material and its tension, and the bridge.

....and if someone ever tells me to go suck on a mandolin I sure would want that Fylde!

Don

[John Flynn]

Forget water soaked wood -- how about this Fylde mandolin that spent its previous life as a keg of Single Malt!
I think Fylde should sell them full of scotch. They could have some sort of removable plug in the soundhole and a spigot on the side. Then when you've finished scotch, you take the plug out of the sound hole, let it dry out and you can start playing! Sure, it's a crazy idea, but we all know a lot of people would buy one!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Luthier Vandross]

That mando looks killer! (and a bit pickled)

Speaking of pickles.... err... submerged wood.. salty spruce is good.


M

[Darryl Wolfe]

Spruce.....that "submerged" sitka billet I got from you looks really great resawn

[Spruce]

It is nice wood, and has a "waxy" feel to it that is very distinctive...

Electron microscope studies were done on the wood, however, and it was impossible to tell the difference between the sea-soaked Sitka and fresh Sitka in the cell structure...

However, the mystique of sea-soaked wood assured that the whole log went out of here in little boxes very quickly...

[Michael Lewis]

I'm thinking that the afore mentioned sea soaked sitka wasn't in the water long enough to ruin it( natural super sitka resins to protect it), while the Great Lakes stuff has been under water for more than 100 years, was maple, and therefore more vulnerable to deterioration.

[Spruce]

"I'm thinking that the afore mentioned sea soaked sitka wasn't in the water long enough to ruin it( natural super sitka resins to protect it), while the Great Lakes stuff has been under water for more than 100 years, was maple, and therefore more vulnerable to deterioration."

The Sitka was forced under salt water by a large houseboat in Ketchikan for about 25 years, and did have some sections of rot near the part of the log that (I'm guessing) was sticking out of the water...

The Lake Superior wood (so some of the stories go) was the result of an over-supply of logs for the mill, with some of the logs that they didn't get to becoming waterlogged and sinking to the bottom of the lake. #Once fully submerged, they were supposedly immune to fungal deteriation...

[WaywardFiddler]

The Lake Superior wood (so some of the stories go) was the result of an over-supply of logs for the mill, with some of the logs that they didn't get to becoming waterlogged and sinking to the bottom of the lake. Once fully submerged, they were supposedly immune to fungal deteriation...

Anything submerged in Lake Superior is immune to a lot of things, excepting hypothermia. One of my old friends used to like to dive up there. 42 degree water, full dry-suit diving. There are 100 year old wrecks where the wood looks like the day it sank, and things like electrical knife switches show no corrosion and still operate. Its about as close as you can come to a deep freeze and still be liquid. Anything that grows in wood in those temperatures is going to grow *very* slowly.

[Mandopickr]

Could it be that some of that wood that was submerged in water was a better quality old growth wood in the first place?

Doug

[Spruce]

"Could it be that some of that wood that was submerged in water was a better quality old growth wood in the first place? #"

That's the hype...
But as I mentioned earlier in this thread, a stroll through a modern logyard will uncover quite a bit of modern hardwood logs with old growth characteristics...
Sure, there's a lot of wider grained material, but there's a lot of old growth wood in there as well...

They didn't get it all...

Nor did they get it all on the Left Coast, as every mandolin, guitar, and fiddle being made today will atest to....

[Dru Lee Parsec]

... secrets of the Stradivari . . .

Has anyone else read the very good article in "The Big Red Book of Lutherie" (Volume #2 I think) on the Strad violins? #Apparently, there in only a single instance of a Strad violin that in original condition (original neck and fingerboard) And I believe that even that one has had the top recarved and patched. Every other Strad in existance has had the neck and fingerboard swapped or modified and has had the top regraduated. #They also have a taller bridge to get more volume out of the instrument.

So what does a "real" unaltered Strad sound like? #Nobody alive knows.

[Scotti Adams]

..pardon me from straying just a little but have any of you heard..esp. Bruce about the cost of Brazilian Rosewood instruments going double in price. I have it on very good authority that this is the case. So much in fact that my dad...and he aint stupid..has owned and still owns some vintage Martin guitars..went and bought a 1991 Martin D15 #13 of 23 which is the proto-type for the HD-28 vintage series...made of Brazilian Rosewood. He bought it from a reputable dealer that told him about this jump in price. Dad bought the guitar last saturday for $4000 and the dealer told him that by monday the price would have dern near doubled.

[Spruce]

I dunno about the jump in guitar prices, but I've sure seen the cost of the wood itself go through the roof....

I've seen some sets go for 800 bucks recently that were not all that great to begin with, which just boggles the imagination...

I'd like to go down there and look for some old BR furniture to send home.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Luthier Vandross]

I don't think that was a very good way of doing business. You can buy vintage brazilian guitars for that kind of money.. if this was mandolin related, I think we'd have my first full-blown tirade, right here.

Gibson quit building out of brazilian. They can't tie up a person in buying, just to scour the world for piles of terrible wood, to find a single set..... and there are piles.. all slab sawn, ugly, gnarly crud. It took them a while to realize they had been building alot of -expletive deleted-.

Go look at colonialtonewoods.com, that is the kind of stuff that's left. Kids are cooking hotdogs over '40s 45 style sets, in Brazil... as I write this..

I don't think much of that salesman.

A D-15 is not a prototype of an HD-28, they made an HD-28 well before 91, as well.


M

[Scotti Adams]

its the proto type of the HD28 Vintage series model..only 23 made

[Spruce]

I think a lot of guitar makers (both large and small) bit themselves in the butt when they advertised a 2K or so markup on BR guitars, at a time when the tonewood dealers were getting 250.00 or so for a set...

The tonewood dealers took one look at that, and turned on the thumbscrews...

The rest is, as they say, history...

[Jaws]

Going back to the subject of Timeless Timber, I thought I'd mention that my Phoenix has bridge base made of Timeless timber. I think there's even a certificate or something in one of the case pockets certifying that, but I can't be sure of that since I'm at work now). I know there's a large number of factors that combine to produce good tone, but my Phoenix really sings.

[mad dawg]

Here a timely article from the SF Chronicle on a Berkely violin & cello builder who swears by submerged Great Lakes wood: Peter Van Arsdale (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/07/31/DDGS97VA8M1.DTL).

[tofuhippo]

I don't know what to think of this, but i heard that stradavarious would soak his wood in ##### for a period of time and somehow this changed the sonic properties of wood?!?!? Sounds like an urban myth... is there any truth to this?